@toowonderful, “I was very late to get clued in to exactly WHICH schools were the lottery schools.” That’s what is so frustrating for those of us who have skin in the game this year–the definition of a lottery school for MT is a moving target. At first, I thought my son had a good number of “fit” and “safety” schools on his list, but in my most anxious moments, I fret that I have a list of lottery reaches. Thankfully, he is far less apt to panic than I am… Seriously though, as long as MT remains a popular major entered into only by that undecipherable asset of “talent”, last year’s “fit” school can easily become this year’s “it” school.
@claire74 - interesting comment about 12 being the number for a student with tippy-top expert advice and wondering whether students without such help might want to consider a larger number. I think your post and the ones following point right to the heart of the problem - exactly how do you get to the “right” list considering all the vagaries inherent in the process?
The little math guy in the back of my head from several classes eons ago in probability, statistics, and chaos theory screams, “you can’t ever really know anything with absolute confidence.” And, with all due respect to other posters, the little math guy also screams that "a series of successes based on a limited sample size may just be a (fortunate) coincidence or the result of some inherent bias in the sampling process/i."
Therein lies the game…
As I posted at the beginning of the audition season last year, my d only wanted an audition-based program. There were no non-audition “safety” programs that she was interested in. At all.** For her and those like her, the process was based entirely on probability, probability driven by odds that are very difficult to even estimate with much accuracy. After lots of research and access to some great advice, my simple conclusion was that a balanced list might consist of:
a) Some schools within what we judged to be the top half of the programs listed at the top of this forum (with special consideration given to avoiding more than one of the top 5 or so “usual suspects” as being “lottery schools” with odds so low as to defy imagining).
b) Some schools within what we judged to be within the “other” half of the schools listed at the top of this forum.
c) Some schools not listed at the top of this forum.
We ultimately divided all the schools into 4 “tiers” and made sure that there were some from each “tier.”
Since d had the opportunity and energy to audition for lots of programs, and we had the means to support her, she did lots of auditions, casting her net as wide as possible. It worked out OK.
I don’t think its possible to attack or defend any particular number of schools that should be on a list with any degree of certainty. If you have great advice, 12 or fewer may be all that is required. If not, then maybe a few more might be a good idea if you have the time, energy, and resources. In all cases, prudence in choosing schools to put on the list is probably at the heart of the solution.
A long time ago I started a thread on this topic - however, if you don’t like discussions of probability, beware and abandon hope all ye that enter in:
- However, the little math guy is getting on in years and maybe he is not so smart anymore, just irritating.
** I did, however, make her apply to a non-audition safety school anyway.
I think for those of us who don’t have parents helping and assisting us with the process and who don’t have a lot of money to use on the application side of college that there is no problem in auditioning for a small amount if you have a good safety.
My parents are supportive but don’t have a clue about performing arts college admissions and don’t read this form. When I told them how many school I wanted to audition for they thought it was a lot and in reality it’s small compared to the majority on here. I just wanted to say that people shouldn’t feel required to audition for 12+ schools. If you have a safety non audition school that you would be happy in, go ahead and audition for as many schools you can afford (money and time) and schools that you would actually prefer to attend over your non audition school. So for me I’m not putting all the odds in my favor as far as a BFA audition program goes but I have enough that it will work out and I might make it to my favorite audition school or I’ll be at my non audition and I’ll be in the right place either way without audition for 18 schools.
I had a bunch of schools on my list last year but now that I’ve eliminated many of them I feel more connected to each school and could answer the common interview question of “Why do you want to attend our university” as opposed to having so many schools that they become just names on a list.
I happen to agree with @alwaysamom. And I have already posted my opinion on this thread about college lists. I have advised those going into this field for over 12 years. My advisees have had a wide range of talent and a wide range of academic qualifications as well. So, no, they were not all “gifted.” In recent years, applicants have tended to have an average of about 12 schools on their lists. The range has typically been between 10 - 14 schools. I have rarely had a student apply to more than 14 and I can’t think of a need to really do that. All have gotten into more than one college. I can only think of 2 or 3 students who did not get into a BFA degree program (2 were Acting applicants actually…one of whom was originally intending to try for MT but had an evaluation done by a national coach who didn’t think she was competitive for a BFA in MT) and landed at Muhlenberg and happy. I’m not convinced that applying to more than 14 schools would have yielded a BFA acceptance for them (and they wisely had some BA options on their lists and so had more than one college acceptance). Everyone else got into at least one BFA program (who wanted one). Again, I think having a list that is appropriate to that candidate which is well balanced is key. While it is highly competitive to be admitted, and often there is no rhyme or reason other than statistical odds for many rejections, I do believe if one’s list is right for a candidate (not right for just any applicant), and a candidate is a viable contender for schools on that list, they should not be 100% shut out of any acceptances. If they get into 0 schools and had a list of 14 schools, then I venture to infer that the list was not the right list for that student.
My daughter applied to 11 and that grew to 13 after two early rejections from fall auditions. She was accepted at two and waitlisted at two and got in off the waitlist at Ball State, which was in her original top five programs. She is so very happy with the program and her roommate whom we met through CC. Just a word to the wise – make sure that your safety is truly safe – my D did not get into her non-audition safety – luckily, she had other acceptances, but that could have been a bad situation! We cannot say enough good things about the program at Ball State – rigorous training but on a campus that feels like a college campus, which was important to my daughter. BAL to all going through the process this year – it is such an intense time, but there is life on the other side!
What do you mean by Lottery school? My D is very zen about this whole process.Of course it helps that we are not applying to BFA’s! That is not to say her schools are safeties, they are selective academically and artistically too. with several of them running like BFA’s. But eliminating prescreens and unifieds etc makes the process less crazy. Our list is very small & she is great with that. I just asked yesterday about adding a couple of local schools even though they are BFA’s and she said,Mom, my list fits me and I am happy with it.". I am happy she is happy but cant we just sneak 1 or 2 locals in there?? 
There really is no magic number of schools to apply to. And the posts you see on CC are just offering perspectives from their experiences and point of view. Do not feel there is any one right way to go. There are so many variables unique to each student. Not only do you have to worry about the audition, you have to assess the likelihood of academic acceptance as well. And you have to guesstimate whether schools will be financially affordable if accepted. I think 12-15 schools is very common. Even if you are supremely talented and academically brilliant, it is still no guarantee of acceptance. There are cases every year where really smart, talented kids are shut out of the schools to which they applied. Who knows why? If you want to hedge your bets, apply to plenty of schools. If you have concerns about academics, skill level, etc… you very well may want to apply to 20. It definitely is not uncommon to add some to your original list if you do not get a great response from pre-screens and first auditions. Be open to doing so. It is perfectly ok and advisable to do this. You may uncover some hidden gems you didn’t originally consider.
There is no one right answer. It depends on your individual situation. As with all things in this process, do what is comfortable for you and your family. But personally, I agree with those who’ve said cast as wide a net as you are comfortable doing. The odds are not great for any of these schools. So give yourself the best chance of getting in as you can.
@joyfulmama - a “lottery” school is generally used when talking about places like CMU, Mich, Juilliard etc. (those are examples - there are more) These schools will admit that they could take for every kid they take there are 3 or 4 more who are “equally” talented. So getting one of the slots seems as much about luck as anything else- hence the term “lottery”. To be fair- Ivies say the same thing
I found it interesting re-reading the thread Emsdad linked in post #341 - in 2011 the “conventional wisdom” of CC was that a candidate didn’t need to apply to more than 10-12 schools b/c going higher didn’t increase odds of AN acceptance. (there is much discussion debate about statistical probability that frankly went over my head, I am just mentioning my takeaway) That was in 2011. Seems to support the idea that there has been a bump in numbers over the last few years.
Cast the net as wide as you feel comfortable with, and remember the number of schools “auditioned at” can DECREASE as the season goes on. An early acceptance or two at a desirable program can help you eliminate audition(s) scheduled later in the season. You may be out the application/prescreen/audition fees, but at least save yourself the travel costs. S applied to 8 BFA audition programs (pffft! Silly us. But S was willing to sit out a year and do it again if he didn’t get in). He purposely scheduled a March audition at a school we knew would be an unlikely financial fit, then canceled it after other acceptances came in. Ironically, the local “safety” school (ah-ha-ha-ha-ha!) he had applied to to humor his mother (@Joyfulmama) became a front runner during his early fall audition. To this day, he says that was his favorite college audition experience. Sometimes Mom actually “knows” something. . .
Re: prescreen filming. We haven’t filmed/submitted ours yet because S has a full, dark beard for a role he’s playing in a couple of weeks and the hipster/lumberjack look isn’t the one he wants to express in the prescreen videos
With all due respect to those that commented pertaining to my post about my sons school recommending 20…possibly widdled down to 15…(again…NOT for MT) , I used this as an example of the issue that I dont think the “cast your net as wide as you are comfortable with” that is being discussed pertains strictly to MT applicants. I believe that times have changed and that many majors are casting a wider net…for various reasons such as acceptance rates, athletic scholarships for D1 schools, merit money, etc. Whether it works for one or doesn’t, that is up to the particular applicant…it is not to say one is right or wrong…just that times have changed compared to when I went to college and you applied to a couple schools. In the end what matters is that a student winds up at the best possible school for them academically, socially, athletically, talent-wise, financially, etc. Whats good for one is not necessarily good for another…
@DVCmember … I applied to one school - and didn’t even visit. The first time I saw the campus was the day I moved in. Oh how times have changed!!
Can I just say that I’m a little bit jealous/wistful for you 2020’ers who are just starting the audition process this year? Though ours was rocky (to say the least!) I really had the best time w/ my kid. I wouldn’t trade those 8 hour drives, 5am wake ups and crazy gas/hotel bills for anything. I’ve pondered on this a bit, but I think that MT & Theatre parents and their kids have some of the best relationships. (Not to say that other parent/kids have bad relationships … I’m not saying that at all.)
But there just seems that theatre parent/child relationships are closer than average … and it probably comes from all those times that we spend HOURS in the car with our kids for lessons/auditions over the years. And especially mothers and daughters …
I’m just rambling this morning. Not enough sleep and definitely not enough coffee. Carry on …
Goodness…lots of opinions on the number of programs question. It’s already been said, but perhaps bears repeating - this process is insane and we are all doing the best we can. When D’s audition coach suggested she shoot for a list of 20 programs, we though that was going to be impossible, until we really started digging and learning about programs that we had never even heard of & stopped thinking that those lottery schools were the best and only places to go if you wanted to pursue a career in MT (for instance, Montclair is not actually a place many West Texans have ever even heard of…much like I think Sam Houston does not come to mind for folks in Ohio, but both seem to have really great programs). Bottom line for us is that we don’t want D to end up in the same position as several of her friends & classmates who went through this last year - including 2 who spent the better part of their senior year w/their hearts set on 3-4 programs this forum might consider “elite” or “top tier” (or lottery or whatever word you want to use) and snubbing their noses at the nearby BA program b/c they thought they were just too special for that, only to end up at nearby BA program when they didn’t get into the top programs they just knew would beg them to join & it was too late to be considered for other BFA programs they might have been well suited for (and vice versa). Yeah, 20 is a little crazy, and I hope she doesn’t actually end up auditioning for all of those places (much less applying…see previous thoughts about what a boondoggle that is for the universities in application fees). I’d be stoked if she could get an early offer (or two 
) and we could forego Chicago Unifieds altogether, but one of her favorites will be there, and I don’t see us traveling to that individual campus for an audition, so for now we are just going with the flow. Anyway, rambling seems to be a common theme this morning, but to sum up, I’m completely down with casting the wide net & hoping that she is faced with some choices in the end…
Weighing in as someone who went through the admissions journey two years ago with an academically “very high end” Ivy and LAC-equivalent aspiring son and now have an MT aspiring daughter. There are giant similarities, which are not evident to the “outside world”. And MT is a tougher nut to crack. I’ve received the same comment over and over again with both: “Oh, of course he’ll/she’ll get in - why are you even worrying? I’m sure he’ll/she’ll get a free ride, too” etc. etc. I would try explaining the very real, under 5% maybe 8% odds and, more importantly, the lack of a guaranteed safety at any of the schools of that ilk. And I explained, for my son, how subjective it all was and how many there were out there with the “numbers” and extra-currics etc., and that at that level there was zero guarantee of admission. He wound up applying to 18 schools, some of which were due to my panic at the last moment, and insisting he throw in some “lower-end” schools, although concerned that he would seem too high end and not get into those either - which happens.
And here’s the difference in what happened to him and what may happen to my d: Of the 18, 5 were Ivies + Stanford, 3 were the LAC equivalents of these and the other ten were excellent schools with, gee whiz, maybe 15-30% admission rates. He got into all of the “other ten”, got into 2 of the LACs and w/l the third, and got rejected from 4 out of 5 of the Ivies + Stanford. His one and only admission out of those 5: let’s just say the most famous school in the country. Which he now, very happily, attends. So although we overdid it on the applications, the final result showed that for that high a level, if one could afford the fees, it was indeed worth casting a wide net and making no assumptions.
The difference for MT: for audition-based programs, there are ZERO safeties, unless perhaps you want to categorize some of the newest ones, which need to fill up their programs, as safeties. My advice is to apply to as many as you can afford/can deal with the stress of the submissions, etc., and then have a few liberal arts schools which are academic safeties and have strong programs in some component of the MT skills, be it music or theater departments. Make sure private voice lessons can be arranged for non music-department students. Dance is tougher, as theater dance isn’t taught much outside of MT programs. Maybe look for safety schools near an urban center where there are likely to be more vocal coaches and maybe even excellent private dance studios where kids can take external classes. We are in the NYC area so we are spoiled in this area. My daughter did not want to apply to non-audition programs was insteaad prepared to take a year off and/or “turn pro” rather than adjust her level of the schools she was interested in, if she didn’t get admitted to any of thse, and as a major financial contributor to this whole endeavor, I am in agreement with this for her, especially as it’s basically a continuation of what she is already doing because of our location.
@rampions I can relate in that my oldest child had a similar college selection and admissions journey as your oldest did (though she only applied to 8 schools, not 18). Your son’s results are exactly on par with what one should expect with a well balanced list appropriate to the candidate. The fact that he got into a couple reaches and then into all his matches and safeties, makes sense. My D had far fewer schools on her list, but had as similar result (and she attended an Ivy, but it wasn’t the only one she got into).
My second kid was a BFA in MT applicant. In my view, almost all of the BFA in MT programs have “reach” odds, given their very low acceptance rates. There is a bit of very rough tiers of some being more competitive than others to get into, generally speaking, though acceptance rates don’t tell that story. I think an applicant could also balance their list by having some BA by audition schools and then some non-audition BA schools, two of which should be academic safeties. If their list is made up of schools where they are truly a competitive applicant, both academically and artistically (even though the odds are still tough, they are at least in the realm of consideration), and they have a range of artistic and academic odds, plus non-audition safeties, they should not be closed out, even if they have 12 schools, not 20 on their list. My daughter, however, like yours, only wanted a BFA in MT and so she had no safeties. I tend NOT to recommend that to others, but admit that is what she did. She applied to 8 schools, though today, I’d make that 10 for her. Her list was right for her. The right list, in my view, is more crucial to ensuring some options, rather than applying to more than 14 schools. That is just my view, based on advising many students in this field.
I totally agree with Soozievt and rampions and others in their strategy.
Also, finances and logistics also play a role. I speak as someone who has done this 5 times already! (Ack).
I’m a single mom, so my finances are very tight. I’m sure there are others in my boat. I want to let you know it’s still possible! I did have to carefully budget money for a coach as well as money for auditions and fees. And I also work full time plus, and I can’t afford to take off of work more than a day or two. Some people just cannot afford 20 schools and that’s fine. I think it’s a balance between maximizing stats and not driving yourself crazy.
So for my two D’s (one non-theatre), we did 13 (just because), and for my S in theatre, we did 7. My S did make me nuts because he only wanted to do 7 and was happy with another gap year if he didn’t get in anywhere; but he was already a professional actor so that was a special case, I think. (BTW, my older son is a returning college student and he did only 5 or so–he did all matches he loved and the results were great. But I think transfer strategies are different.)
For my theatre D, we were able to do 13 because we live fairly close to NYC so it cost less financially for us, since we didn’t have to stay in a hotel and could drive there. But of those 13, the majority were LACs, Ivies, etc. I couldn’t possibly manage 20 auditions, nor even 13. She ended up in Northwestern.
If you do less it is especially critical to balance safeties, matches and reaches. Also remember financial safeties and matches. Don’t put yourself in a situation in which the only school you get into is one you can’t afford or the one that requires a ginormous loan. Also, it is critical to choose safeties you would be happy in.
In all my kids’ experiences, the process was crazy making, but the results ended up, thankfully, ok. However, you cannot possibly predict what school will accept you. My D at Northwestern was an extremely strong student academically but didn’t get into any other top Ivy/Ivy-like school. This happened to my older D too, at Williams. They were both rejected from many other schools, and in both cases, were rejected/deferred from schools that were safeties.
So I guess the only thing I’d add is that it’s possible with fewer if you can’t afford/can’t swing more. The critical thing is to really choose your balance well and to be happy with all choices.
One of the things that I found super helpful during last year’s audition season, was the Audition Review thread from the year before. It was very helpful to read (and sometimes pick the brains!) of parents/kids who had auditioned at particular schools in the past. Knowing the “lay of the land” (so to speak) before my daughter stepped in the audition room was definitely a good thing.
Here’s the one from last year: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/1692173-2014-2015-audition-day-review-p1.html
It’s about that time for the auditions to begin … maybe someone should get the ball rolling! 
(My daughter auditioned at Millikin, Western Michigan, Southern Illinois University, Ball State, Rockford, Nebraska Wesleyan & Western Carolina … if you want any info on how those auditions run, I would be happy to help!)
My daughter has decided to audition for MT and VP, as well as apply to a couple of schools for regular studies. So her list is 14 MT schools, 7 of those she will also audition for VP along with 5 additional VP schools, and she’s got 3 ‘regular’ schools. How’s that for complicated? Oh and we sort of have to plan to miss an entire day of Chicago Unifieds because she is auditioning for Texas All-State, and if she makes it again this year check-in is on the last day of Unifieds. But that audition process isn’t over until early January, so not really enough time to make any changes. Ugh.
Luckily, she’s staying on top of it for the most part. We’ve finished applications (academic), she’s uploaded prescreens (MT), we’ve scheduled a big chunk of February auditions, and we’re getting ready for the first round of early auditions in Dallas in a few weeks. The VP prescreens will get filmed soon, I hope. When we start scheduling VP auditions too, I have no idea how we will fit it all in. I’m pretty sure choices will have to be made. (I think she’s a little heavy on the VP schools, so I hope she will drop a few of them from her list.)
I don’t really recommend this approach, but I think the audition process is unique for each person going through it. As long as you think it through and do your research, I think you’re on the right track.
@KaMaMom I enjoyed reading through the audition review thread last night! It was especially helpful now that we know which schools we’ll see at Unifieds and which ones we’re going to for campus auditions.
@KaMaMom I’m interested to hear about your thoughts on Rockford and WMU as well as audition experiences. I’m considering add both of those to my list since I feel my list is bare and could use some beef. Right now, my favs are Roosevelt, Montclair, Columbia, and Cincinati, I’m not sure if Rock and West Mich fit in. Thanks, you rock.
@ParachuteBoy … I think my D would’ve/could’ve been happy at either school - but they are really polar opposites.
Rockford is VERY small - about 1000 undergrads. I’m too lazy (read: not enough coffee) to look up their scholarship $$s, but I remember them being very generous. My D applied, interviewed and received one of their bigger awards. The audition experience was pretty personal as well. There were about 10, maybe 20, potential MT & Theatre kids there. Parents, kids, current students and profs met and had lunch. (I will say, that I have visited LOTS of colleges with both my kids and Rockford’s cafeteria was pretty much the worst. It was very bad actually.) There was a campus tour and then some of the current students hung out with the kids while they waited in the theatre lobby to audition. They did a dance call first - pretty simple and I do remember the dance teacher being very welcoming. Then they got called in one by one to the audition room to do their monologues & songs. Not a lot of chatter w/ the kids, just sing/act bye! I think there were about 5 professors in the room - I do remember that their ages trended older (think 60+) and when they walked out of the audition room and headed to the dance studio to watch the call, they walked from the audition room down the hall like ducks in a row. Unsmiling, dour, ducks in a row. I remember thinking that was odd. Their costume shop is to die for - TONS of gorgeous costumes … there’s a backstory on how such a teeny school got so many drop dead costumes, but I can’t recall it right now. If you really are interested, send me a private message and I’ll try and see if my kid remembers.
Western Michigan was pretty opposite of Rockford, both in school size, and audition size. The school is about 20,000 and there were well over 100 kids on our audition date. Possibly closer to 200. (I may have a better number in the audition thread, but again … NEED MORE COFFEE.) WMU was one of the easier schools to schedule auditions with AND to contact and receive answers to questions - they were quick & kind. When you arrive each kid gets a pin on number and you’re ushered into their big theatre. The profs & financial aid do some presentations and question and answer sessions while the kids are called out to do their songs & monologues in groups of 10. (Be prepared - it’s a LONG day. Also, there are outlets on the theatre walls if you need to charge a device.) When the kids come back after auditioning, they’ll either come back with a golden ticket (meaning, you’re been asked to stay for the dance call) or empty handed, meaning you can go home. There are definitely some tears that you see scattered throughout the room when kids gather up their things … so be prepared. There were about 20-30 kids that were held for the dance call - and it’s not immediate. I believe we checked in at 7am to Shaw Theatre. The dance call was at 3pm - that should give you an idea of how long the day is. Anyway, I do remember the song being Ease on Down the Road from The Wiz … my kid said it was A LOT of fun. Be prepared for to do some freestyle or improv (or whatever they call it) for a portion of the song. I really REALLY liked WMU … it’s a great program and Kalamazoo is a great town w/ a vibrant arts community.
Does that help? If you have any super specific questions, please ask and I’ll do my best!