The first column is the number of National Merit scholars at the school. The second column is the number of those National Merit scholars who received a school-sponsored National Merit scholarship (as opposed to a corporation-sponsored or directly-NMSC-sponsored scholarship.) So you can see that some schools (Harvard, MIT, Stanford, Berkeley etc) do not give any scholarships for NMF status unlike some other schools (Northwestern, UChicago, USC, Vandy, Alabama, ASU etc.)
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Yes, just a guess. Only Harvard knows for sure how many of their students are NMFs.
ETA: I mean if a person was really interested, they could figure it out. They could somehow find out the name and hometown of every Harvard matriculant, and then cross reference this list with the list of all NMSFs that is released by NMSC. But a person would have to be sort of obsessed.
Thanks, @fiftyfifty1. Good info!
Many of the kids who make it to semifinalist donât finish the process to become finalists (can be for several reasons, as noted on the requirements here merit_r_i_leaflet.pdf (imodules.com) So, there are plenty of âsmartâ kids who just donât move on to finalist or scholar status. Itâs not a measure, IMO, of the âintellectual chopsâ of the student body at a school.
FWIW, both of my kids were NMSâs. One of my sâs got an ok NMS amount each year from his school which then stacked on top of his full tuition scholarship, which was nice! Other sâs NMS was a token amount, but maybe enough to buy books and such. Regardless, how many NMSâs were at either school mattered not to either of my sâs, nor to us. What mattered to us was that they each find a school that offered for them what they felt was the best college experience for them. We were happy to support that. They both turned down great $$$$ opportunities (they each received personal calls from UA and UF to encourage them to apply-- and it was a hard no for both).
It was also a long time ago, so their NMS experiences may not be as relevant for this current conversation. But IMO, it matters not how many NMSâs are at any school. Most students will find their peers.
Snipped by me. I think that this is true for many of the top tier institutions, but for the lower ranked schools, it is a good barometer of how many truly âhigh achieversâ are there. I in no way think that NMSF/NMF/NMS is the end all and be all, but it does give prospective families a sense of the density of students who test in the top 1% of their respective states. The number of NMFs at UA was definitely part of the appeal for us. It was one signal that my DD would have several academic peers.
The merit money was a huge part of our decision, but I have absolutely no regrets. My DD is thriving, both inside and outside of the classroom.
Bama will also have a NMSF fee waiver that starts in October, and it will be available through Common App. This is separate from the one week fee waiver that UA typically offers in October.
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Glad your DD is happy and has found her people. TBH, since something like 70% of students go to college within a 2 hour drive of their home, there are likely to be smart kids at any school, but who happen to be staying closer to home.
Yes, number of NMS is just one small and very imperfect data point to consider when it comes to making a college list. But I actually appreciate that certain schools advertise their number of NMS. Not every high achieving student who wants to go to an Ivy+, can go to an Ivy+, either because they donât get in or because their parents canât afford it. For these students, a statistic such as number of NMSs can be a way to reassure them that there will be a critical mass of other high-achieving students at the school they do attend. In my mind, itâs similar to other measures such as what % of students go on to get PhDs, or how many win Rhodes scholarships, or even starting salariesâall extremely imperfect statistics, of course, but taken together they can form a reassuring picture for students worried about finding peers who are also serious about academics at schools that are not elite.
So Iâm indebted to CC members like @tsbna44 who remind me that even if your kids canât (or donât want to) end up at an Ivy +, great outcomes can still happen, and that many schools from Alabama to UF to UTulsa to Fordham (where my own kid ended up) provide amazing opportunities for a smart and motivated kid.
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Smart, motivated kids will thrive virtually anywhere they are planted. And too, with the admission rates so ridiculously low at most of the top schools, we donât need the NMS data to remind us that 80-90%+ of those bright kids will end up elsewhere. They will find their peers at most any school.
Yes, Iâm sure there are high achieving students at every school. But in my mind, a critical mass is important. My own home town is situated within 2 hours of 3 institutions: an elite liberal arts college, a strong but not elite state flagship that attracts a fair number of NMFs due to its National Merit scholarship, and a state directional that is known to be âparty heartyâ and doesnât even offer an honors program. A high-achieving kid will find multiple peers and get a solid education at the first 2 schools. At the last one? No, not so muchâŠ
Donât know what school is school #3, but (a) a serious student may be less likely to select a party school without an honors program in the first place, so that may self selection and a non issue, and (b) even if they did, it would likely be a place to be the top of the middle rather than the middle of the top.
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Just pondering⊠unless the NMS students are mostly clustered in an honors program or dorm, its otherwise going to be that 90+ % of oneâs college class/peers are not among that top group. Thats a lot of students (classmates)! Many schools with honors programs, even without NMSs will provide students with a âcritical massâ of academic peers. JMO
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Thank you for raising this topic. From the list linked above, our large in-state flagship had about 0.4% of the freshman class being NMS, a school not known for significant merit. While itâs easy to imagine that the students with, say, very high SAT scores comprise a larger subset of the freshman class than that, Iâm not sure what to think about this angle for a NMSF making the college list. How many other top students at a large school are really needed for a good chance a NM kid will âfind his peopleâ (assuming outside of engineering)? Just wondering out loud.
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I see what youâre saying here for sure, but Iâd be careful with that assumption. Certainly, overall NMSF students from New Jersey or other high-cutoff states will have higher index scores than students from lower-cutoff states, but there are plenty of students in lower-cutoff states who earned the same or better selection index scores than students from the higher-cutoff states. For example, my son attends a small town, fringe rural public high school in Alabama, and he and a young lady from his school both have a 223 SI, so they would have qualified in any state. They also have a classmate who scored 217 or 218, so he would have qualified in quite a number of states as well. You also have to keep in mind that for the most part, the higher cutoff states are ranked much higher not only in education but also in median income, healthcare, physical and mental health, economic mobility and resources, and a whole host of other quality-of-life measures. An example would be my home state of Alabama, ranked 44 by USNWR in education and 44 overall when considering a number of economic, healthcare, etc. measures compared to New Jersey, which is ranked 2nd in education and 19th overall. So while some might think the SI cutoff variation between states unfair, the argument can be made that when looking at this in the context of the above factors, it would not be fair to hold every state to the same standard.
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For this, we can agree - assuming one can afford to do so - which clearly you could do. Of course, others will chase the money - regardless.
Absolutely. I never meant to imply otherwise. My point was simply that the top 1% of any given state should be roughly the same.
I certainly understand your frustration, and I would probably feel the same way if I were in your situation. I would urge you to keep in mind, though, that for the most part, the higher cutoff states are ranked much higher not only in education but also in median income, healthcare, physical and mental health, economic mobility and resources, and a whole host of other quality-of-life measures. An example would be my home state of Alabama, ranked 44 by USNWR in education and 44 overall when considering a number of economic, healthcare, etc. measures compared to New Jersey, which is ranked 2nd in education and 19th overall. So while some might think the SI cutoff variation between states unfair, the argument can be made that when looking at this in the context of the above factors, it would not be fair to hold every state to the same standard. Another way of saying it is that the average kid in New Jersey is much better off educationally and in every quality of life measure (except maybe college football) because they were born and raised in New Jersey compared to the average kid in Alabama, Mississippi, New Mexico, Oklahoma, etc.
Also, it is worth keeping in mind that certainly when looked at overall, NMSF students from New Jersey or other high-cutoff states will have higher index scores than students from lower-cutoff states, but there are plenty of students in lower-cutoff states who earned the same or better selection index scores than students from the higher-cutoff states. For example, my son attends a small town, fringe rural public high school in Alabama, and he and a young lady from his school both have a 223 SI, so they would have qualified in any state. They also have a classmate who scored 217 or 218, so he would have qualified in quite a number of states as well.
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I can tell you that almost all of my DDâs friends at UA are NMFs, and it is not because she only wants to be friends with NMFs⊠or is even seeking them out. I think that there are a couple of reasons for this. First, there is a critical mass of NMFs, which means that her likelihood of meeting one is much higher. Second, the cohort that she joined is geared toward high academic achievers, so the NMF density is extremely high in that group. Third, because she knows and is friends with so many NMFs, she keeps getting introduced to more NMFs in her day-to-day interactions (see reasons 1 and 2). I feel very confident that she would not have had this experience at some of the other large public universities we toured, and I would be lying if I said that this did not play a rather large role in her decision to attend UA.
I think that @fiftyfifty1 did an excellent job explaining the benefits of having a large number of NMS, so I will just leave everything else at that.
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@tsbna44 -Youâve also shared many times that you could have also afforded to do so as well, as a potential full pay family, if you had chosen to. You chose otherwise. One of my sâs got a full tuition scholarship plus the NMS, so it was cheaper to send him there than to our state flagship (which he didnât even apply to). Other s also got some NMS $ and some outside scholarship $, and at the time the school he attended was about 25% less expensive than its peer top 20 schools (he attended a top 20). We had our thoughts as parents, but we let our sâs choose what they felt was the best academic and social fit. It was our pleasure to do so, and we have no regrets. We have always placed a value on education, and we didnât put an arbitrary financial or geographic limit on them. Different strokes for different folks.
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You bring up a good point, and Iâm not sure of the answer. One of my siblings was a high-stats student who had to turn down an Ivy+ and 2 other T20s due to family finances. Ended up at the solid but not elite flagship I mentioned above, and did live in the honors dorm. My sibling credits the honors dorm with finding like-minded peers, many of whom became lifelong friends and a great alumni network of high-achieving professionals. Another of my siblings (who was a solid student but not particularly high stats) also ended up at this same flagship. Wasnât eligible for the honors program or the honors dorm. Never did find a great set of peers in college. Has had a pretty solid career path, but has had to derive a social and career network from elsewhere than college.
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This is all so interesting! My younger s specifically declined the opportunity to live in the honors dorm. He wanted the âtrue freshman experienceâ (his words) and he got it 
That said, he made many, close longtime friends and met his now wife there. I think that maybe they occasionally joked about the different scholarships they won, but AFAIK no one talked about who was or wasnât a NMS (at either of my sâs schools). It just didnât matter.
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