I was just thinking about how with the historically unprecedented cost of higher-education(relative to income), we now seem to be expect students in their late teens to make what is potentially the biggest personal financial decision they will ever make. Possibly bigger than buying a first home. This seems off, somehow, as they have yet to be trained(through schooling or self-sufficiency) to make financial decisions of such magnitude.
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Agreed. If you all haven’t watched Borrowed Future do yourself a favor
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I have been quietly reading though this thread as I have a rising junior who is considering a double degree option. First of all Congratulations to you all on having amazingly accomplished young musicians.
I am chiming in because I am wondering if I am reading some of the comments correctly. Is applying for double major going to make him less desirable candidate? Mine is interested in Northwestern and Jon’s Hopkins dual degrees. Where would I start on figuring out wha the needs to do?
I wouldn’t say less desirable - I would take @KaylaMidwest’s very sound advice and gauge the reaction of any potential teacher to the information that it’s what your student is interested in.
I would hope that schools who tout a double degree have faculty that are on board and supportive. Northwestern is a tough academic admit, but they do have a whole section of their website devoted to the 5 year double degree option.
I just noticed that @RussianMom’s D was admitted to NU/Bienen dual degree. Perhaps she can share some insight for you.
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Has he looked at Vandy? It’s my understanding that they are very open to double majors there between Blair and the other schools.
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When we toured Northwestern 5 years ago, both our tour guides were double majors. We actually found it interesting that they introduced themselves as a “$non-music major” and then “$instrument major” (ex. Civil Engineering AND Jazz Trumpet … both started with the non-music one first).
So, it seemed actively encouraged, whereas when kid had a lesson/chat with the professor at IU/JSOM, that professor actively discouraged the double major that admissions was touting.
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We are just starting to look around for him. over the last two weeks he made a 180 turn and decided he wants a music degree.
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Yes, I know it’s a hard admit academially, but my concern is my kid will only have music extracurriculars. He will have all the APs and test scores they would want from academic side, but I worry without academic extracurricuals, how one goes about being admitted to those dual degrees? I get the music side separtely. I get the academic side also separately. I can’t put them together in my head. There are only so many hours in a day.
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I think it is an advantage at Lawrence, Gettysburg, Bard, and Yale.
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Northwestern is actually one of the schools we got mixed messaging on dual degree on. And we did also talk to some double degree students. But like I said, don’t take my word for it. Faculty members move on, thinking evolves, department needs change, etc. I’d just push for a sample sample lesson if possible and ask a lot of questions from that angle. Talk to students if you visit, etc.
The other thing with NU is I’d run the net price calculator and make sure it financially at least looks somewhat in range. They aren’t known for generous music merit for UG students. That may depend on program needs any particular year, so you may hit the jackpot but would be less likely in super competitive studios.
My older kid was told straight up at Lawrence U from a teacher he “can’t” do double degree in a sample lesson from a crabby rogue human on faculty and that’s a bad idea. Crazy and ridiculous, I know. Lawrence is not super far for us, my 2nd kid is seriously considering, we’ve talked to oh so many happy and engaged dual degree students at this point. I am not kidding you, we had the weirdest experiences with that kid. This was a kid that had stats to apply anywhere and was a very well prepped musician. He had teachers at other programs reaching out to him immediately after his auditions.
Anyway - definitely just ask the hard questions and make sure you click with who you’d be working with!
@BoyFluteMom I think you are confusing double majors and double degrees. Oberlin, for instance, may not want you to major in two instruments (double major within the Con). But Oberlin is well-known to be very very welcoming to double degrees (one major in the Con and one in the college) and a large proportion of students do double degrees.
The two terms are not interchangeable.
Oberlin is reputed to be (from what I have heard) a fantastic place for a double degree, as is Lawrence, Bard, Tufts/NEC, Harvard/NEC, Yale, and several others.
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@Medea1 you might want to read the Double Degree Dilemma essay in the Read Me thread here on the music forum. It describes the difference between double degree and double major, and the different ways to study music.
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errrr um.
Nope. I think I got it right. I think Dual Degrees are common in Oberlin and ok but Double Major or Double Degree are Not and are much more challenging though 1/3 of students there get them, I hear.
From my understanding, with a double major or Double Degree, you get two degrees from two different disciplines like music and science or music and accounting.
But a Dual DEGREE is what you’re thinking and that’s when you have two different areas of concentration under One major, music.
And even in those cases, I still think it’s up to the professor. In the case of the math teacher, she would have concentrated in two disciplines and gotten a dual degree but that is what was frowned upon by the voice studio and the violin studio each which wanted students under their tutelage to ONLY be focused on their sole craft.
I think my use of Double Degree threw the monkey wrench in there. 
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I completely agree with @KaylaMidwest on this. Even at schools that promote dual degree programs and where students have thrived in the dual degree programs, it’s important to do some digging into how supportive any particular studio teacher is when it comes to dual degree students. For example, I know someone who was in the Harvard/NEC program, which is very well established and has been wonderful for many students, whose studio teacher at NEC would become very angry when he heard the student was excelling academically at Harvard, because he thought it meant the student was spending too much time on academics and not enough on music. It became a very difficult situation and ultimately the student dropped the NEC part of the program. This is no criticism of the Harvard/NEC program, which is an amazing program. But like any program it depends on the teachers. So just make sure that the teacher is willing to embrace the program and not be resentful and take it out on the student.
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@BoyFluteMom no, dual degree and double degree are the same thing.
Double major is different from dual or double degree. You do not get two degrees with a double major.
Double degrees are 5 years and involve a a BA/BS and BM or sometimes an MM.
This is important to get right because comments on this thread are sometimes misleading concerning attitudes at the different schools about these variations.
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This seems absolutely crazy to me. I wonder if studios would rather accept kids who aren’t planning on dual degrees.
@Medea1 that was one teacher and one situation. Many schools and teachers are supportive of double degrees (aka dual degrees!). In fact, Bard Conservatory students are required to do double degrees.
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Hmmm…while a lot has been written about the fact that studios do sometimes not like dual degrees…not a lot has been written about why…although I assume most people, at this stage in the game, understand why.
A music degree is difficult and TIME consuming. Most will require a large ensemble. That large ensemble is often late day and into the evening. It may even require weekend work. So it can easily conflict with labs, late afternoon classes and study groups. When my D got cast in her first opera, she had to drop a class in order to take private diction (strongly suggested by the school and free) and to simply have the time to work on her part in Italian for a 3 hour opera. There was no way to say…well my STEM lab meets 3X a week at 3:00…so we’ll need to work around that. All course work was encouraged to be done by 2:30 pm for her for 4 years…to leave room for performance requirements.
Often in high school, these high-achieving kids can do it ALL…and are rewarded for it. In college, for a dual degree, you will work next to brilliant kids giving 100% to performance…while you give…what…50%? In high school, when you are probably the best kid, that’s fine…you’ll be on the top no matter what. In college, you may start to sink…and teachers are “stuck” trying to help these kids deal with the emotions and surprise when they get to college. This does NOT happen to all…but hard choices will definitely come up (and teachers know this). Also teachers can be a bit competitive for their studio to pump out successful performers…so a part-time performer may be good or bad for a teacher. I do think teachers pick and choose a bit on this…maybe their studio has a lot of dual degree and then may try to re-balance. However this is speculation. It just shows…it can vary…
Finally, my D got a BS (VP in music with a concentration in theater). She choose a school with a big grad program figuring she’d get her “singin” done in the studio and classes…and be able to perform in theater…as she was told UG’s won’t get as many opportunities (well that was dead wrong!). In any case, she was attracted to a music school with a lot of grad students for the reason it turns others off. She also went to a school that is not known to be warm and fuzzy to other degrees/concentrations (still she had met with the theater dept and knew she could get cast there) and had a teacher who rarely take UG students (particularly one with a separate interest). She is well-known for making opera singers and has a sought after studio (so she can pick and chose). She even told my D once (when she was down on herself) that she didn’t need to bother with a BS student with a concentration in theater…but she liked her and her voice…so she picked her anyway. So…you never know. This teacher is still in contact with my D and still supports her.
I write this to just give perspective. When people were dismissive of my D doing both MT/Acting and VP, I just thought they were silly. I figured I would walk into the music dept of an important college and be told…oh of course you can do both. And…I was completely wrong. Still my D found her way. It wasn’t always easy…but a music degree never is.
I think that you need to simply have this knowledge and you begin looking at schools seriously….and then work through it step by step…as many of us have done…and know that in the end she’ll find the right school and teacher.
I hope that this helps.
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So….
My daughter is a senior at Northwestern majoring in Voice/Opera Performance with a minor in Theater. A majority of the music majors are indeed double degrees, and yes…they are indeed the busiest students on campus. Many take a fifth year to graduate, which is the norm. The double degree option is what attracts these brilliant, talented students to NU, and the Bienen studio profs understand and accept this. I have not heard of a studio teacher rejecting a student who wants to double degree. NU is truly an exceptional school, and the Bienen faculty has nurtured and supported my daughter and have expertly prepared her for her next chapter in grad school.
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At the end of the day, music teachers are individuals. Not all of them walk a clean line behind their school’s marketing in our experience. Ask lots of questions. It can help to get a lead on a teacher that might be a fit ahead of time. Apply to a variety of programs with a variety of possible paths and try not to fall in love too early. BM/BAorBS aren’t the only options.
@Bridgenail that was really interesting insight into your d’s experience. My college kid’s music teacher has been such a mentor for him in ALL ways, he is just a great human.
I have wondered if funding a student for 5 years vs 4 years might enter into teachers minds through the admissions process depending on how they are doing their merit money and if they advertise a 5 year double degree. Also balancing program performance needs with the students availability. I love that Bard requires and funds double degree for all their music students.
I noticed that Lawrence changed how they did their merit recently since my older kid. It’s all just MERIT and not listed as music vs. academic and it makes me wonder if it has changed behind the scenes. Lawrence in particular really has a dean and program that speaks to modern musicianship and carving your own path and loving mulit interested students so it was super shocking to us hit double degree resistance with a teacher there with kid 1.
Anyway, I am definitely not trying to bad mouth any programs or any particular teachers. I’m just sharing our experience and encouraging those with double degee interests to keep an open mind and ask lots of questions. This process for us has been much more straight forward with my straight music applying kid.
I do find it a bit odd especially opera based programs may have mixed feelings on theater interested students. At one school my kid just auditioned at, she was asked to say her lyrics like a monologue by the artistic director of their opera program. My VP applicant LOVES theater. She is doing a lead in a regional show right now and is in heaven. It’s been a nice distraction from the college process!
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