Classical/instrumental programs at Brown and Penn

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>Hi. I've searched past threads about the ivies, and although there is a lot of input about Yale, Princeton, Harvard/NEC, I haven't come up with a lot on Penn or Brown, except for some older threads on Brown.</p>

<p>So, I'm wondering what the opinion out there is about the music program for classical/instrumental/performance at these two schools? My son is interested in both of these schools (in addition to a few others) as either a music major or minor, but he's trying to get more information. Although he has not committed to music as a major, and does not want to go to a conservatory, the quality of the music program at any school he applies to is a make it or break it necessity. </p>

<p>Thank you in advance.</p>

2

<p>I teach at Penn (not in music) and have written a lot for the alumni magazine about music in the university. If you want to PM me, I can give more detailed information and links to the articles I’ve written. But here I will say that the music major is primarily focused on musicology and composition. Penn is actually a top school, with regard to those disciplines. There are applied music classes, and there is an opportunity to do private lessons, chamber, and ensembles (such as orchestra) for credit. It is also true that some top-notch musicians with an academic bent do attend Penn for whatever reasons, often studying with Curtis faculty. But there is no formal exchange in terms of lessons (graduate composers do work with Curtis ensembles, and Curtis students are able to take Penn classes.) Penn is really not a place for conservatory-minded kids, but there are plenty of students who are good enough musicians that they might have gone to conservatory if they’d applied. There is a brand-new music building; the facilities are not bad. But you’re not going to find the same level of music culture here as you will at Yale or Harvard. It really depends on your son’s academic interests and his personality. Penn is an urban school with a very different vibe from the other schools you mention.</p>

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<p>glassharmonica,</p>

<p>Thank you so much for your response. I may PM you at a later point if we have more questions, but your input was really helpful.</p>

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<p>I can’t speak specifically about any one school, but the ivy league schools in terms of a musical performance degree are not generally known for their programs, if they have it at all on an u/g level (as many people have pointed out, Yale doesn’t offer a performance degree for undergrads). </p>

<p>That said, I agree with GlassHarmonica, that doesn’t mean there isn’t the opportunity to do music at those schools even if they don’t offer a BM. From personal experience, the Ivy league schools tend to have orchestras and other performing groups and both conventional wisdom and personal experience say that they do recruit musically minded students to come to the school. What this means is that even if the school doesn’t offer a BM, they will have a music program, often at pretty high levels, that students can participate in (put it this way, a lot of the kids in high level pre college programs end up at Ivies, and they are generally talented musicians; not sure if playing an instrument at a high level helps on admissions or not to those schools, but as they say, it isn’t going to hurt:).</p>

<p>Note these schools do offer music degrees, but they are generally a BA degree in musicology and so forth, as GM said, which is different then a performance degree.</p>

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<p>I know several very good musicians who were BA music majors at Yale before going on to a conservatory program for graduate work in performance or musicology. Several years back I participated as a ringer in an ensemble at Princeton and, at least back then, they had some very good groups.</p>

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<p>Hi maggiedog,
My DS was accepted at Brown, and his intention was to do a music minor in college, at the very least. He took one quick look at the music building during their accepted students weekend, and said forget Brown. He was not impressed by the facilities, to say the least. Now, this was 5 years ago,and perhaps they have added a new building, or beefed up the program, but I havent seen any other CC parents recommend Brown for the quality of the music dept since then.
DS ended up at USC, in large part due to the $$$ scholarship he received and in part, because they have the Thorton school of Music- not quite p to Curtis, Peabody or Julliard caliber, but nonetheless, a very fine comprehensive music program that offers classes to musically qualified students. There are many venues for talented musicians at USC as well.
prior to 5 years ago, USC would have been the LAST college I EVER thought my son would go to. [ he was accepted at Chicago and Dartmouth too] Just shows you how much they can change their minds.</p>

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<p>Brown’s music BA has three possible strands:</p>

<p>“There are currently three tracks within the concentration: one that emphasizes theory, history, and composition; another that emphasizes ethnomusicology; and a third that focuses on computer music and multimedia.”</p>

<p>All I know about Penn is that Geroge Crumb taught there for many years (now retired).</p>

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<p>Thanks for your feedback. Menloparkmom, I am also aware that there isn’t much info out there about Brown, and also, from what compmom is saying, there is an emphasis on non-performance programs. However, I have heard somewhere (don’t remembere where, though) that the orchestra is considered farily good. I just don’t know how much of a fit the place would be for a classically trained student. So I’m trying to get more information. I didn’t know USC was such a good music school. That’s a little further than S is thinking of going - probably trying to stick to the East coast.</p>

<p>Bassdad, I have heard really good things about Princeton and Yale also.</p>

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<p>None of the schools you mentioned in your original post will have a performance major. The music major is academic: theory, composition, history, musicology, ethnomusicology, music technology etc. Some classes will have a performance element and there may be “performance related projects and activities” (Princeton site) but overall, not a performance major.</p>

<p>And then there are extracurricular music opportunities in orchestra, ensembles and so on.</p>

<p>Have you considered Tufts? Tufts has a nice music department, and also has a joint degree program with NEC (BA/BM; Harvard’s is BA/MM).</p>

<p>And there are so many schools “beyond the Ivies.” Oberlin and Bard have double degrees (BA/BM) and students can study music either in the conservatory or the college. Williams, Amherst, Middlebury, Sarah Lawrence, Vassar, Bennington, MacAlaster, NYU… lots of others.</p>

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<p>Compmom,</p>

<p>Thanks for your comments. Tufts is definitely a school he is considering. He’s not crazy about smaller LACs that are somewhat isolated and rural (e.g., Williams). I think the dilemma with schools that have a conservatory connected with them, such as Oberlin, Rochester, etc., is that if you’re not in the conservatory, it is hard to get into some of the higher level ensembles. </p>

<p>The other dilemma is that he is really intensely passionate about classical music, so having access to a strong music program, serious music students he can connect with, and good ensembles is critical for him. However, he is not sure he wants to major in music for a career, and has many other interests, and hopes to use the first year or two of college to sort this out.</p>

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<p>^^ tell us about his other interests. That will help us give you guidance.</p>

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<p>As others have said, the Ivies don’t offer performance degrees as such. That said, there are a number of ways someone could go to one of those schools and still have an enriching musical experience:</p>

<p>-The schools themselves have ensembles, that by repute, are pretty good performing groups</p>

<p>-A student could go to one of these schools, and take private lessons at a high level from teachers who teach other places (or maybe even are associated with the school, like, for example, faculty of the grad yale school of music). </p>

<p>-The other thing to keep in mind is outside performing ensembles, depending on where they go to school. As one example, the New York Youth Symphony covers through age 22, and as a performing group is one of the top ones around, it is as good as many conservatory ensembles and plays at a very high level. Kids who go college in the NYC area belong to it, often to supplement what they have at their own school or in replacement of it. There are other groups like this all over the country that could be an alternate, if their local school scene doesn’t pan out.</p>

<p>Just giving you some alternate paths, if your S wants to go to a high level college that doesn’t support performance degrees.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the idea about outside music ensembles, musicprint. </p>

<p>Menloparkmom, he has a range of non-music interests: physics, math, psychology, philosophy. He may be headed toward a more academic-oriented career. The thing is, he is not interested in music ed, and realizes that a music performance career may not be doable given the competition out there. Who knows, he might end up liking musicology or the neuroscience of music or something like that. But for now, he needs to have exposure to a range of classes to make a decision. Most of his friends are musicians, either from school or youth orchestras he has been in, so having a peer group of like-minded individuals will be important wherever he ends up. Thanks for asking.</p>

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<p>“But for now, he needs to have exposure to a range of classes to make a decision. Most of his friends are musicians, either from school or youth orchestras he has been in, so having a peer group of like-minded individuals will be important wherever he ends up.”</p>

<p>Sounds like my son was at your son’s age. I strongly suggest he focus on Universities that ALSO have very good music programs [offering both music majors and minors, and opportunities for non music majors to take classes and participate in groups], AS WELL AS strengths in other areas. Rice, Northwestern, and USC should be considered. Your son could branch off in college and find other passions. Chicago has a large percentage of musically talented students who play in their orchestra and other venues.</p>

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<p>It sounds to me as if your son should first pick a school he likes academically, with a location and size he likes, and a compatible “vibe,” then look into music studies and extracurriculars there.</p>

<p>Your first list (Yale, Princeton, Harvard, Brown, Penn) would all be good choices. One of my kids went to Brown and loved it; my daughter is a music major at Harvard, but has also been involved with the music department at Tufts. The music department at Harvard is sort of decentralized, with orchestra, choruses, ensembles organized through the office of the Arts, not the music department. The music building is under renovation right now. At Tufts, performance groups are through the music department and there is a beautiful new music building. My daughter loves the music classes at Harvard, but has had plenty of chances to take art history, history, cultural studies, literature, and economics, so far.</p>

<p>I have heard that the Yale School of Music is a mixed blessing, because undergrads rarely get to study with SOM teachers, but we know three musicians studying there as undergrads, happily, and one of them is not a music major. Bard is a great school, and I have heard that non music majors participate a lot in musical opportunities, despite the presence of a conservatory. I know a biology major/composer who thrived there but was not in the conservatory itself. Spirit Manager on this forum knows a lot about Bard.</p>

<p>Another thing to think about is curriculum. Does he prefer gen ed/distribution requirements, or more freedom to choose classes? There are other nuances in requirements for majors. My daughter applied to Harvard versus Yale because the music major there includes more classes, and she liked the actual courses better, and also because Yale had more distribution requirements. Another person might have liked that.</p>

<p>So look at websites carefully.</p>

<p>Other posters have said this but I will echo that it is perfectly possible to take lessons privately while at any school that is near teachers. In Boston, there is NEC, Berklee, Boston Conservatory and Longy (in Cambridge, now part of Bard, so not sure how that would work). My daughter was advised to do this instead of the double degree program, at least at first, because it is more affordable! Opportunities at colleges to play in orchestra and ensembles should be satisfying in every way, at least to start.</p>

<p>Good luck and feel free to PM me.</p>

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<p>One option not fully mentioned is the possibility of a dual degree between a rigorous university and it’s school of music. It generally takes five years and can be difficult to schedule, but is an approach some prefer. It eliminates the problem of accessing the som-track only classes. My son attends Umich, technically as a dual degree student (second degree is film). In his case, his program has a lot of film production (he’s in a form of music tech and composition there that includes scoring and sound design) so he may not ultimately feel the need to complete the film degree, but that was his approach to balance his interests.</p>

<p>It’s tough to choose between the ivies and other top universities in this case, because by virtue of smaller size, ivies do not always have the intensity of specialization you find at
a larger institution with a school of music. Umich is well ranked in the disciplines you mentioned that you son is interested in, and well regarded as a school of music as well. So perhaps your son would be able to take the same approach at jhu/Peabody or other east coast “pairings” if same is supported. (I believe you said your preference is east coast schools, correct? If not, umich would be worth looking into if your son’s stats are ivy league material. It’s offerings are truly robust academically AND musically.)
Best wishes in your search.</p>

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<p>Just want to add that for the dual degree programs I am aware of (BA/BM. BA/MM) a student can apply later, after a year or two. If that is a possible direction in the future, even if it is not at present, then the son could apply to schools that have a double degree available, start with the BA, and decide to do the music degree later, if that becomes a priority.</p>

<p>Again, it is also possible to do a BA and study privately.</p>

<p>The five year programs can sometimes be stressful, but some thrive on it.</p>

<p>I also know of programs that go in the opposite direction: allowing musicians to take 5 years to graduate with a BA, to allow adequate time for practice!</p>

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<p>Just remember that if you start in a BA program with the intention of transferring into a dual degree program with a BM or MM, there is still an audition involved and no guarantee of acceptance into that program. You will need to be practicing almost as much as the performance majors to have your audition material ready to go in the January-March time frame.</p>

<p>It is usually easier to go the other way, starting in a BM program and then applying to get into the BA. No guarantees in that direction either, but the audition becomes a non-issue. Depending on the school, it might even be a little easier to get into their BA program if you have already been accepted for the BM than it would be for someone trying to transfer in from another school.</p>

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<p>Thank you all for your great advice. There is clearly no easy answer, although many good choices. Hopefully, he will come to a clearer decision about how intensive a focus music needs to be as he goes forward with applications. And compmom, I may PM you - thanks for the offer.</p>

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<p>There is an axiom in music that if you can see yourself doing anything else but music, it may be wise to pursue that. Not saying your child should not go into music, but rather in terms of a path it may be wise for him to find a path where he can perhaps major in some other discipline while remaining connected to music (as a dual major or not). Maybe he could use his first year, as someone suggested, getting immersed in the college and spend the time working with a private teacher and practicing, and if he decides he wants to dual major, audition…it could be after a year of working on the academics, he decides he doesn’t want to major in music, or it could be in doing academics he realizes how much he wants to do music…this approach seems to give a pretty good foundation for ‘jumping off’ so to speak…</p>