CNN on College Debt and NYU

Colleges and Universities A-Z New York University
81

<p>The reality is that a major decision like taking out loans is being made by naive 16 year old kids with no idea of how the real world, finances, job market, etc even works. These kids have been told their whole lives that if they study hard, make A’s, they’ll get into a good college and then get a real job, and that is so far from the truth. Here are some misconceptions I frequently see on this forum and hear in real life:</p>

<p>1 - Employers will be SO impressed I went to NYU and hire me!
No, probably not. NYU is generally regarded as a school for ivy reject rich-kids. Most people who get in choose not to go because they realize the debt may be worth it for Harvard, but not for some random Top 50 private school ranked highly for Most Expensive and Worst Aid but not in much else. (I’m not talking about Stern btw)</p>

<p>2 - If I double-major I’ll have better job opportunities!
Hah no, your double major in Sociology and Politics won’t impress anyone. The reality is people who learn skills - Engineering, Nursing, CompSci, Architecture, etc - are guaranteed well-paying jobs out of college that will always be in demand. Like Jassy12 said, a History major from NYU is no better off than a History major from State U. So taking out serious loans for it is just stupid. </p>

<p>3 - Tisch is prestigious so Tisch grads make money!
I have many friends in Tisch and they’re talented, but newsflash: a degree in Ceramics or Musical Theatre usually translates to being a waitress. Most intelligent Tisch grads realize this and know theres a 1% chance of ending up on Broadway. Most Tisch students I know do NOT take out serious loans for this reason - they’re not dumb. Less-prestigious programs like Nursing, CompSci, Engineering usually make more money.</p>

<p>4 - Good grades = Good job!
Good grades in Stern, Math/Science in CAS, or Engineering/Nursing maybe. But good grades in East Asian Culture? Probably not. Take advantange of NYC to get internships and jobs because that’s what employers want to see after you graduate! SO many people I know at NYU don’t bother to do this!</p>

<p>I attend NYU and I like it here and don’t regret coming here. But I won’t pretend for a second taking out serious loans is a good idea for any college, let alone NYU.</p>

82

<p>Alix: It must be wonderful to be a college junior who already knows everything, including what employers are and are not impressed by and who is and is not going to get a job when they graduate. Can you also predict what the market is going to do when it opens Tuesday? If so, I could really use the tip given that I just funded my daughter’s NYU undergraduate education.
Stern students think that Stern is the most elite school at NYU, Tischies think that Tisch is the hardest NYU school to get into, and the math and science CAS majors think that they are the only CAS students who will end up with good paying jobs, or even any jobs at all. It’s human nature to think that whatever you are doing is the best/smartest choice, so some of this fist bumping/chest thumping is understandable But you need a serious reality check if you think that the only NYU students who are going to get good paying jobs are those who majored in nursing, engineering, business or CAS math or science. I’m pretty sure that President Obama majored in political science at Columbia and he did OK for himself. Please, give it a rest.</p>

<p>Oh, and as for number 4, my daughter got really good grades in her European Studies and Romance Languages majors and her Middles Eastern and Islamic Studies minor and got a full ride fellowship and stipend to grad school at NYU. I’ll put her fluency in three languages ( four by the time she finishes grad school) up against your undergraduate science degree any day when it comes to post-grad earning power.</p>

83

<p>@Alix2012 Maybe I should be clear. I’m in Tisch. No State School could provide me that training. Yes, I did get a CAlGrant, but NYU matched that (Remarkably).</p>

84

<p>@Alix2012 Ironically, the reason I chose Tisch is so that I won’t end up as a waiter! I’ve worked as an actor in LA for the past 5 years, and after seeing a Janitor hand the director of a music video I was in, his head shot, I realized (that could be me.) So I decided then and there that i would go to college so that i could avoid being a janitor, waiter etc.
I have to say that getting a job depends a lot on the person. Sure those careers are guaranteed a job after college, but it depends on a person’s drive, ambition, and intellect. I personally don’t expect anyone to give me anything; I have to work hard for anything I desire. If you are determined to succeed, you will. Everyone keeps saying “You’re crazy.” “You’re an idiot.” Do they honestly KNOW I won’t be able to pay off my loans? Do they KNOW I won’t get a job? Sometimes you have to have Faith that you will succeed. Especially in my major; nothing is guaranteed.
“Faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see.” Hebrews 11.</p>

85

<p>@CASMom - Perhaps you should actually read what I’m writing before you start flipping out irrationally. Did I say anywhere that most NYU majors are not worth it? NO, I did not. What I am saying is that before someone takes out $200k in loans to attend a school they can not afford it is best to think rationally. Obviously since the majority of students (I’m assuming your daugther as well) do NOT fall into the category of excess loans, what I said doesn’t apply to them. I used to work in the NYU Financial Aid Office for my first work-study job back in 2008 and I met countless students who took out excess loans and were back bargaining for more. It was honestly just sad and so whenver I see students on this board talking about taking $100k+ in loans for a BA, excuse me for pointing out it’s not exactly prudent. </p>

<p>And I’m already fluent in 4 languages (grew up in a tri-lingual household) and I didn’t waste 8 years of my life and $250k to do it, so your snarky little comment honestly just sounds stupid.</p>

<p>@ajrover: I agree it depends on your ambition/intellect and maybe in Tisch more the rest of NYU - talent and networking. It sounds crazy, but some of the most successful Tisch students actually dropped out before even getting their degree, because they realized to make it big in that field, producers often don’t even care about a degree…so Tisch is really a unique NYU school in that aspect.</p>

<p>And you are right, unfortunately there are very few cheap (public) options for those studying things like musical theatre, studio art, etc - I have a friend at Cooper Union studying art in NYC for free, but let’s face it: how many people get that opportunity?</p>

86

<p>It is really sad that after investing so much money, this poor guy ended up broke. I go to NYU and I know that the reason people are willing to go into debt is to see a return on their investment, but unfortunately that doesn’t always happen. Students in Stern always expect that they’re going to become investment bankers after they graduate but of course not everyone gets that opportunity. </p>

<p>I did take out loans to attend NYU, but they are minor compared to this person (about $4k/year or $16k for 4 years) and sometimes I wish I hadn’t even done that. I do attend on a scholarship, but it doesn’t cover full costs and the cost of living in Manhattan is so high that I’m afraid most of my paycheck goes to rent and food!</p>

<p>I agree with Missamericanpie, Alix2012, Uschoolfish and Jessie12: NYU might be worth it if you can afford it, but otherwise a cheaper option might make more sense. </p>

<p>For example, I got into Fordham University (Bronx) on close to a full scholarship. Had I gone there, I would have graduated debt free. Instead I will graduate from NYU with debt. I came here because I preferred downtown NYC to the Bronx and because NYU has a stronger reputation overall. </p>

<p>I agree that many students do not know what they’re getting into with these loans. Even on this thread, everytime someone points out major debt makes no sense for an Undergraduate degree, someone else starts talking about how they’re going to do $30k/year or so to finance their education. My parents would never have co-signed those types of loans.</p>

87

<p>" jobs in the financial sector, there are something called “BONUSES”. I am assuming that you got that information out of “Life beyond the square 2009”, in which if you looked more carefully, the Finance major got on average about $63,000 BASE SALARY. Count the sign in bonus ($8k - 10k) and the end of year bonus ($10k - $30k) and you’re left with a very large sum. I admit, the end of year bonus may vary depending on the firm you are in, and the state of the economy but nevertheless, it still mounts up to an easy $70 - 80k for graduates who make it to the financial sector in NYC - which the majority of Stern undergraduates end up. Not to mention, the yearly salary of an analyst goes up per year much much more faster than an engineering degree - hence, explaining why many undergraduate engineers turn to an MBA for grad school. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, $250,000 loan is still WAY too much, but in my opinion, a <$100,000 loan is very doable if one is at NYU Stern (NOT REGULAR NYU), and keeps up a somewhat decent GPA."</p>

<p>Haha, I’m fully aware of these bonuses. I’m actually a finance intern and the firm I’m at only reviews applicants from NYU (I should add, about half of the interns aren’t from Stern or even majoring in something business related, such as art history). Also, the most popular careers for CAS students out of school are in the business sector and a majority end up employed in NYC if I remember correctly, so that’s just something to think about.</p>

<p>Anyways, I think it’s crazy to say that only Stern students could take out a hefty 100k loan since not every graduate will end up making them big $$$ and/or majoring in finance, even though Stern is a respectable college. I mean, realistically how many people are really going to end up with these fat cat jobs at Goldman off the bat? (I’m not sure if such statistics are listed in Beyond the Square so please correct me if I’m wrong). Majors like nursing have a very respectable salary and are located in seemingly “less prestigious” (read: perceived easy admissions to outsiders) colleges at NYU and may be worth the loans. To write off all of NYU’s many undergraduate schools like that is wild to me, especially when each certainly has its strengths and a huge variety of majors. Again, I’m not putting down Stern in any way (I’ve taken classes in it for my minor and also have lovely friends in it, haha). I’m just trying to emphasize that no degree can promise you anything for certain once you graduate since how much you make is ultimately up to job availability and the judgement of an employer when reviewing applicants.</p>

<p>IMO, no one should graduate with 100k+ worth of debt. When reviewing the schools I was accepted to, I immediately threw out acceptance packages from prestigious schools that didn’t offer me a decent amount (~half tuition) of financial aid so I wouldn’t get my hopes up. I’m not sure how the many schools of NYU operate admissions-wise, but atleast CAS received a nice pre-acceptance letter a couple weeks before the official acceptance package with financial aid, so it’s hard to not get excited over that period of time if NYU was a top choice.</p>

88

<p>I think everyone agrees that no job is guaranteed. That unless you go to a top 5 school, you cannot simply major in anything and expect to find a good job. Beyond the top tiered schools, your major, networking ability, experience, and even luck are going to be the deciding factors as to whether or not you get a job or not, not the brand name of your school. So if NYU cannot realistically help you attain a job any more than a much cheaper school can, why spend so much more to go there? Why is NYU worth that $180,000+ extra premium?</p>

<p>Going to a state school or on a generous scholarship at another private university will not hamper your ability to choose among majors, network with employers, get work experience, etc. You can do all those things at any school. Work hard, strive the be the best in your class at a top public school, and you will go very far. </p>

<p>I agree that there are some employers who choose to only target certain schools. Perhaps NYU is a target school for some firms that other schools are not. But just because you have an opportunity to apply somewhere does not, in any way, mean you are going to get that job. Is $200,000 worth it to simply have a chance to apply to a banking job that someone going to a mid-tier state school cannot? To me, that sounds like a very risky gamble for someone who cannot afford to not have a job. </p>

<p>So for every Stern grad who makes it to Goldman Sachs, there are plenty of Stern grads who do not. For every Tisch grad who makes it to Hollywood or Broadway, there are many more who do not. Certainly if you paid $8000/year in tuition, that may not be such a big deal. But if you are spending $42,000/year in tuition, should you not expect some sort of justifiable premium on your investment?</p>

89

<p>Alix: I’m not going to get into a ****ing match with you but I stand by my post and suggest that your re-read your post (#81) and think about how it sounds to others, especially those whose interests and talents lie in areas other than math, science, and finance/investment banking. I read your post three times before responding and got more irritated each time. Your disdain for those who major in anything other than math and science permeates post #81 and many of your previous posts as well. Yet I know from many years in the business world that the critical thinking and writing skills developed through a rigorous education in the liberal arts are among the most valuable tools any student can acquire, and that there are many employers who value those skills above all others.
Given your disdain for NYU—(# 1: NYU is generally regarded as a school for ivy reject rich-kids. Most people who get in choose not to go because they realize the debt may be worth it for Harvard, but not for some random Top 50 private school ranked highly for Most Expensive and Worst Aid but not in much else.)—I’m surprised you haven’t transferred to a better school.
And finally, for the record, my daughter did her undergrad in three years and will spend one additional year getting her masters. Four years total. I’m sure you are very bright and have excellent job prospects when you finish your education. But so do others who chose other paths.</p>

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<p>@Everyone. Yes I agree, $200,000 is outrageous to pay at any school. I understand that there are many who don’t succeed in their profession. Especially acting. However, through my experience in LA, a BFA is highly regarded, especially if it come from NYU. A casting director told me that it is very risky to hire an actor that has little experience; they jeopardize production ( They could have stage fright, not know how to break down a scene, which camera to project to etc.) I was told from many different Casting Directors that if you have degree from the Top 5 theatre schools (Carnegie Mellon, NYU Tisch, Yale Drama, Juilliard, or SUNY Purchase) you have earned you chops in the industry’s point of view and you most definitely will book a job. They told me that a BFA from the Top 5, shows that you actually did work, ( Meaning that the other BFA’s- Not as in depth or serious-Not to put down other BFA programs- this is what they said, not me)
I’m in a situation where I am deciding whether to take out loans, or pay it off all at once. Luckily my parents had a college savings account. I had hoped that with scholarships and financial aid, they wouldn’t be punished for their smart decision, however, it was not the case.</p>

91

<p>Also, I wouldn’t say NYU is a school for IVY Reject Kids, it was my first choice- no IVY can give me the career opportunities of Broadway.</p>

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<p>@CASMom:

  • In 81 I mentioned grads in NYU’s less-prestigious programs like Engineering/Nursing/CS are in high demand after graduation – I’m not in any of those fields. I’m in CAS which makes me a Liberal Arts major like your daughter. Saying I have disdain for other programs and lecturing me on liberal arts makes you sound foolish. My point was that just because a program isn’t prestigious (like Nursing) doesn’t mean grads don’t make money. </p>

<ul>
<li><p>You say I “disdain” NYU. Newflash: I’m a Welcome Week leader, I’m in CAS Student Council, I’ve had 4 jobs at NYU, I’ve created CC FAQ threads to help NYU students and applicants, I’m in a community service club (Circle K) that serves the NYU community, I attend NYU athletic events – But because I think $200k in loans isn’t prudent I must be Anti-NYU, right? When I say NYU has terrible FA and is the 2nd most expensive college it’s not because I “hate NYU” - it’s because those are facts people need to be aware of. </p></li>
<li><p>I understand you’re proud of your daughter but when you snidely say: ”I’ll put her fluency in three languages ( four by the time she finishes grad school) up against your undergraduate science degree any day when it comes to post-grad earning power." it sounds rude. You try to bash me by bragging about a skill I had in Kindergarten. NYU attracts diverse students and there are many here fluent in 3+ languages in addition to having degrees in other fields. I’m happy for your daughter - NYU Grad sounds awesome - but please realize she is one of thousands of ambitious students here. Personally I’m graduating in 3.5 years on a generous scholarship and am headed toward competitive Grad programs myself - there is no reason I’d transfer out of here anyday.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>@Vonegutted: I agree with you $100k+ in loans is too much for any college. Your post pretty much sums up my opinion on NYU finance-wise. Most Stern students assume they’re going to end up in Goldman Sachs and the like, and fortunately many do…Ryan on CNN is an exception rather than the norm thank God. I believe 90% of NYU 2010 grads ended up either in Grad school or with jobs so most people are fine. That said, I’d still be nervous taking out so many loans (even for Stern). My boyfriend is currently $70k in debt for NYU. He will graduate next May with a Stern degree and hopefully won’t be in that bottom 10% :/</p>

<p>@Daughter’s Helper: I believe the video is available here: <a href=“http://amfix.blogs.cnn.com/2010/05/25/the-cost-of-college-dream-school-nightmare-debt/[/url]”>http://amfix.blogs.cnn.com/2010/05/25/the-cost-of-college-dream-school-nightmare-debt/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>A similar thread was created on the Parents Forum: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/935923-mired-debt-education-worth.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/935923-mired-debt-education-worth.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>There, no one is even attempting to defend the NYU grad. This one took out $100k in loans for a Religion Studies degree and made the news too. It was a careless decision and I don’t understand the thought process behind it at all. I was raised in a middle-class family; I’m no Business major, but I was taught to spend less than you earn and buy what you can afford.</p>

<p>I agree with Uskoolfish and Alix20. People need to be realistic - is it really worth it to be in that much debt for an Undergraduate degree? Even on this thread, I see students, parents and applicants defending these people who made the news for their decisions. I see people saying they’re taking out $100k or $200k in loans. Personally I am glad that my parents were realistic about finances in the application process. </p>

<p>NYU really tries to worm as much money out of us as it can. I tried to take a Calculus class at SUNY-Albany this summer but the Math Dept said no, it only accepts classes taken at NYU (I’m not a Math major). Did anyone else have this problem? I thought we were allowed to take classes at different colleges over the summer? :confused: Sorry if I am going off topic.</p>

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<p>From USNWR (2009)</p>

<p>Alumni Giving Rate , National University</p>

<p>60% , Princeton
53% , Dartmouth
51% , Notre Dame
43% , Yale
41% , Harvard
40% , Duke
40% , Brown
38% , U Penn
38% , USC
37% , MIT
37% , Wash U
36% , Stanford
36% , Columbia
36% , Emory
34% , Cornell
34% , Rice
33% , Johns Hopkins
33% , Brandeis
33% , Lehigh
32% , U Chicago
32% , Wake Forest
31% , Georgia Tech
30% , Northwestern
29% , Caltech
28% , Georgetown
25% , Vanderbilt
24% , U Virginia
23% , Tufts
23% , U North Carolina
23% , W&M
23% , Yeshiva
23% , Tulane
22% , Carnegie Mellon
22% , Penn State
21% , Boston Coll
19% , UC Santa Barbara
18% , U Michigan
18% , U Rochester
18% , Rensselaer
17% , U Washington
17% , U Florida
16% , U Texas
14% , UC Berkeley
14% , UCLA
14% , U Illinois
14% , Case Western
13% , U Wisconsin
13% , UC Irvine
12% , UC Davis
11% , NYU <------------
8% , UCSD</p>

<p>I think you only have to look at the near-laughable-if-it-weren’t-so-depressing Alumni giving rate for NYU to infer something about how NYU Alumni feel about their school.</p>

<p>*Also keep in mind this list has both public and private universities. Public universities are not as dependent on private giving, which explains why percentages are much lower at public schools than private. When comparing only private universities, NYU is by far the worst in terms of giving of national universities listed.</p>

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<p>This video is making me reconsider applying to Stern ED…</p>

<p>My parents are a little tight on money (I have a twin brother who also wants to go to college) so they want me to go to an inexpensive school… I might just settle for something less, I guess. Anyone know of any decent schools that have a nice ED acceptance rate and give good aid?</p>

96

<p>NYU gets poor alumni giving because everyone is really not happy the direction the school has taken with their expansion. The money that they collect goes into that rather than for direct student investment. They always claim that they are focusing on the neediest students, but that really is smoke and mirrors.<br>
But I’m not bitter.</p>

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<p>@alihaq717: If you are not sure about how you will finance NYU… DO NOT apply early decision :)</p>

98

<p>As for this Tisch loan debate, isn’t it possible to double major outside of Tisch?? I feel like I remember hearing at orientation about some kid who double majored in something in Tisch and Comp Sci to be secure.</p>

99

<p>Yes, you can double major at Tisch to CAS I believe.</p>

100

<p>daaaayyyuummmm 100K+?</p>

<p>I thought my debt load was cry worthy! </p>

<p>OMG!</p>

<p>It’s not worth it.</p>