Thank you @WayOutWestMom ! During the tour, we were told that CNU uses cadavers as well as the two mannequins, and also the control patients. We didn’t see the cadavers (for obvious reasons) but did see the Himan Anatomy room where they are stored.
@artloversplus - There were a ton of questions about GPA. There is no attempt to curve the grades, so if students do well, they will get good grades. Though that means everyone can get 4.0 GPA, the existing students said that the courses are tough and thus it takes a lot of effort, especially in the 2+4 BSMD program where the semesters are more packed than the others. I don’t think that CNU is easier than any other Pre-Med program. For me, that’s a good thing. If someone doesn’t make the minimum 3.5, the professors will try to help them, but if they still don’t make it, they will need to graduate in 4 years with BS degree from CNU (Cannot matriculate to MD). Same for those scoring below 510 MCAT. When asked more about this, the COM Dean said:
If your child cannot score 510 on MCAT OR maintain a 3.5 GPA with these small classes and all professors working closely with them, you have to face the fact that they are not ready for medical career. Of course, we will evaluate these case by case, but these programs require sincere effort from the student, demonstrated through their grades and other aspects.
I am sure it is as difficult as any other school’s pre-med for the CNU program. But the problem is that for those about 30% of the students who cannot make it to med school, they have limited options. For example, in a large state U, as a BSMD student you will have a major that is useful in employment to fall back on. In addition, there are students who change their mind in medicine, even their grades were not a problem. At CNU, if you can’t make it or change your mind, there is little choice but a BS degree in Biology or some sort that is only useful in graduate school application, if that. Perhaps most of those will transfer anyway.
Do you know even in med school, there are some repeats and drop outs? I am sure there are some in CNU as well.
@artloversplus - I agree. Anyone going to CNU for the BSMD needs to be committed to the program and be able to succeed. CNU has health sciences degree options for BS and the D.Pharma option for graduate degree but that’s about it. Definitely a consideration in deciding which school to go to.
It is so hard for some one coming out of HS to commit in medicine. My D was not interested in medicine when she graduated from HS, we could not even twist her arm to be in that field. 2 years into college, she changed her mind and her gpa suffers from that, as a result, we picked the wrong school and wrong target. She could have graduated in three years and go on to graduate school, but we have to pay extra year of COA to get GPA repair for med school. It is life and choice, but you never know whats in their mind.
As an M2 right now, D is committed in OB/GYN but who knows after she went through the Rotation!
When my son was in high school, he was thinking orthopedics. then when he interned one summer, he was thinking plastics…and then neurosurgery… Now, he’s firmly heading into radiology.
One of his housemates was OB/GYN focused up until the summer before 4th year. He’s now applying to radiology as well.
I am not sure why you are considering this option for your child. Is it because the school is in California or because it seems to offer a shorter road to becoming a doctor? I would never consider this road. First, this is not a normal undergraduate school with students studying all sort of subjects under all sorts of professors. A University education is not just what you learn in a class room, its also about learning from and becoming socialized by your peers. Many students change their minds about their future while in College where they are exposed to other things. This is healthy.
Most Colleges allow a student many options while CNU does not. Secondly while a 3.5 GPA may be easily obtainable, a 510 MCAT is not as it is equivalent to a 84%. There is a significant attrition of premeds in College which may be as high as 60%. That means those left to take the MCATs are not average students and the CNU students will have to score better than 83% of those students to advance. I suspect less than 10% will be successful. Thirdly the medical school is also an issue. Without government backed loans the costs will be significantly higher. Clinical education is going to be a major issue. Some DO schools have very poor clinical rotations where the students only observe and are therefore poorly trained to begin internship. This is very likely to happen at CNU as they do not have a hospital and are sending students to Dignity and Kaiser hospitals that have very limited residency programs and little or no exposure to medical students. You need to go visit a real medical school. Look at UC Davis which is a nearby small and fairly middle of the road medical school. You could also visit bigger schools like UCSF or UCLA. Medical students there are taught by interns, residents, fellows as while as any number of attendings who have all sorts of specialties. Medical students are an integral part of the care team and that is how they learn to be doctors. Lastly residency matching may be a real issue with the number of residency spots per graduating medical student nearing an equivalence. Those who do match from CNU will probably be restricted to non competitive areas of medicine.
Don’t be too harsh with the school and the applicants. As I understand CNU has its roots from the orient where ppl apply medical school from HS and they have either 6 or 7 year program to become an MD. While Americans are not used to this kind of education, the ppl in the orient has been doing this for 2000+ years, much longer than the history of United States.
I am actually not trying to be harsh on the school. It is is new after all and probably gets very decent students who probably have not had any success in applying to other US MD schools and possibly DO schools. There are many talented and smart applicants who would make good doctors who are unsuccessful in gaining admission to US medical schools. I can see why some would choose to take a chance on CNU rather than going abroad in an attempt to become a physician.
It is irrelevant to talk about 2000 years of medical training in the Orient as medicine probably only became a real benefit to its patients less than 200 years ago. Also if one wants to practice medicine in the US one needs to undergo GME in the US and match to the GME will be difficult without a US medical degree. The Flexner report last century changed medical education in the US and Canada to a science and University based process and a graduate degree. Elsewhere in the world medicine is generally an undergraduate degree and like all other undergraduate degrees one needs to maintain a reasonable level of performance in order to advance. CNU like most combined undergraduate/MD programs on the other hand requires one to in effect apply again to gain admission to the MD program with a GPA and high MCAT score. Unless you think students at CNU undergraduate are brilliant, which is unlikely, most are not going to make the MCAT cutoff. The students that fail are left with other few CNU programs or a need to transfer to another 4 year institution. Transfer to a UC would be difficult.
Attending a better undergraduate institution such as UC Davis on the other hand which is a middling UC or similar private College offers all sorts of options for a career and even admission to medical school with a good GPA MCAT performance. A high enough GPA at such undergraduate school may lead to medical school with a lower MCAT score than required by CNU. If the OP’s DD is a California resident, medical school admission is very difficult as we only have 6 state medical schools of which 3 are ranked in the top 15. The majority of medical students at UCLA and UCSF for example attended UCLA, Berkeley, Stanford or one of the Ivy’s. Most California residents attend out of state medical schools. Californians who are interested in medicine should therefore attend the best affordable College they are admitted to.
@mjscal - I’m not sure i quite follow your thinking above, but my understanding is that the 3+4 BSMD students at CNU apply for special early admission into CNU after their second year, much like many other BSMD programs. My understanding is that this application is shortened form of the actual medical school application, and the student applies just to the one school where they’re enrolled in BSMD program. Happy to be educated more about this, as there are multiple such programs like CNU - USF, FSU, UCF to name a few.
I am certainly no expert on BS/MD programs as there are probably more than 30 in the US. I have only met a few who have gone through such programs such as Pittsburgh and Wash U. These programs tend to be very competitive and the benefits are that one may sometimes graduate in less time, as in 6-7 years instead of 8 years although most I know of seem to be 8 years. Generally shorter programs shorten the undergraduate experience and usually require summer work. This means no semester/year abroad and less or no summer holidays. Less time in school means less expense and also a slightly longer career. The programs I know of require passing certain steps such as a 3.8 GPA at WashU and 3.75 at Pitt and I believe WashU requires a MCAT score of around 510. These are lesser numbers than the average admitted medical student at those institutions and one also benefits from not having to go through the whole AMACS process of primary applications, secondary application, interviews etc. The problem with the CNU program is that you’re not really attending a College in the normal sense but a school thats more like a trade school. If one does not pass the 3.5 GPA and 84% MCAT what does one do? If you go to a regular College you do something else. Not a lot of options at CNU. Transfer to a UC will be difficult. Moreover, the MCAT requirement will likely keep a large majority of their students out of the medical school. If one is good enough to pass the 84% MCAT one is than faced with a medical school without it’s own hospital and has to use hospitals that are not used to medical students and have very little in the way of Graduate medical education. Moreover, the school has very few full time academic physicians whose primary purpose is to teach. I am therefore quite skeptical about the adequacy of the clinical education. Those who graduate will likely be limited to the less competitive fields and may have problems matching as the number of MD/DO graduates increase while GME funding remains level. The California Governor has just cut the proposed $100,000,000 increase in funding for primary care GME over the next three years. The OP’s daughter should attend the best College she can afford and study hard. If she can attain a good GPA she may get into a decent medical school with less than a 84% MCAT depending on her GPA and undergraduate school. If I was a CNU medical student I would work my B off to score as high as I could on the USLME and apply to transfer.
The problem with this scenario is that it’s almost impossible to transfer from one med school to another. Typically there are <10 transfers between med schools in any given year. (See MSAR for list of schools that will even consider advanced standing transfers–most simply do not.)
Since med schools completely fill their incoming classes, the receiving med school would need to have lost a student (failed/dropped out)–which is an uncommon occurrence. Students who wish to transfer must be in good academic standing and have written permission from their home school to apply for transfer, including an letter of endorsement from the Dean of Student Affairs. Students wishing to transfer must present a strong reason to transfer. The most common reasons are to join a spouse at another med school or to be closer to a seriously ill family member.
I don’t think you have to worry much about CNU graduates as much as all the other new med/do school graduates. They all have the same problem: name recognition and performance. There was a posting on SDN complaining that CNU is robbing the rotation hospitals from Touru and Western DO schools. Not affiliated with a teaching hospital in by itself is not a detriment to the students. DO schools have been doing this for years and no one are looking down upon those graduates and when they get into the residency, they work hand by hand with all the MD school graduates.
There is no question that it is difficult to transfer medical school but it is possible. Have not looked at a MSAR for years but when I last looked at figures a few years ago there were about 100 transfers per year. I should also note that it is not unusual for a medical school class to lose a few students in the first two years from failing, taking a year off to do research or just a decision to do something else etc. Presenting a good reason to transfer and having the CNU Dean ok it is another problem. I also think that good clinical training may be a problem with CNU. Certainly some of the new DO schools have had problems. The rapid rise of both new MD and DO schools plus the expansion of current medical school classes will increase the competition for residencies as GME funding is not rising at the same rate. Not matching may become a real problem for students from these new schools.