<p>Yesterday was a bad day in our house... D applied ED1 to LAC where a coach committed a tip to her. As late as last week he promised she was "At the top of my list" in a phone conversation. ED decions came out and she was deferred. It only goes to show that coach was either not being straight with us or he had less authority in decision making process then he told us he did. We called him after the letter and he told us that he used a "tip" on her and didnt know what happened. Her grades were strong, SAT in the range and essays, recs were really good.
We are moving on to 2nd favorite school ED2 as we have lost any repect we thought we had for this school / or more importantly this coach.
Any insights?</p>
<p>The extent of influence the coach has in the selection process varies from school to school. The coach could probably have let you know more in advance that his sway was limited, but I don't think he lied to you. I remember the football coach at Ohio State got overruled by the school president on allowing great running back Javon Ringer into the school, so Ringer is playing for Mich State. It's just the way it happens.</p>
<p>Coaches, especially at LACs, tend to overestimate their admissions influence. They also tend to paint a rosier picture than reality dictates. Some coaches I know are completely forthcoming and tell it like it is, but many senior athletes I've know over the years have had the same disappointing experience as your daughter has had. Let the applicant beware.</p>
<p>Agreed. My h.s. senior neice is being recruited by some privates. She visited and fell in love with one where the coach said she was just the type athlete the team needed and promised she could get the COA down very close to state u. price tag. Call came from coach this week offering less than $7000 (off a price tag around $33,000) per yr. Coach said there "might be more money available in Jan. or down the road". My brother is not banking on that. They're looking elsewhere now.</p>
<p>I agree that coach influence at LACs really varies. It was part of the reason my son chose a D1 Ivy for his ED school. He needed to take his best shot, and a LAC just didn't have the same certainty, although I think we would have gotten a pretty strong read at this particular top, athlete-friendly LAC with purple cows.</p>
<p>All that said, the worst horror story I heard was a number of years ago where a Yale coach guaranteed a young woman that she was at the top of his list. She applied ED- didn't even prepare other applications- and was rejected. Not deferred- rejected. Coach admitted that he didn't want to use a tip on her because of her strong academics. He thought she would get in and he could save his tip for someone else.</p>
<p>Agree with many others -- have read/seen news stories on coaches at various schools who have lied to student athletes. The flip side of some of these stories is that students often play the same game, telling coaches they'll definitely attend, etc, etc. Haven't gone down the athletic path with either D or S, but IMO it can be a messy process. Let the games begin!</p>
<p>I don't have any athletes in my family, but some friends do, and some kids' friends are. For the most part, their recruiting processes (LACs, Ivies and similar) went relatively smoothly, with coaches delivering on what they promised. One kid a few years ago had the OP's daughter's experience, but (a) she was ultimately accepted at her ED college at the RD stage, (b) in the interim she attracted a lot of gratifying attention from other, arguably better colleges, and (c) her grades and test scores were, in fact, way below target range for that college, although there was a sympathetic story behind it.</p>
<p>What puzzles me about the OP's story is the conversation with the coach a week ago, and again yesterday. A week ago, the coach should have known what was going to happen with her application, or at least whether there was an issue. Most of the kids I've seen have gotten a tip-off from their coaches a week or more before decisions came out. And "I don't know what happened" is either a lie or an admission of incompetence. Part of the coach's job is to maintain a working relationship with the admissions department. If he tipped an inappropriate candidate from their perspective, he should know immediately (and before decisions come out) what he did wrong. If the admissions people aren't telling him, he should be on top of them.</p>
<p>So I think the OP is right to lose faith in this coach. </p>
<p>There are lots of incentives for coaches to lie in this process, especially since most applicants don't know the right, specific questions to ask. The only thing that restrains them -- other than morality, of course, which most of them do have -- is knowing that if they get a reputation for lying, their recruiting will go in the toilet. The corollary to that is that athletes who feel they have been lied to really ought to spread the word about the coach who did it. If that happens, he won't do it again -- either he will learn his lesson, or he will shortly lose his job for poor performance.</p>
<p>well all this makes me nervous EVEN though D has a likely letter at IVY. IVY league website states that a likely is a proxy for a formal letter of acceptance(LL is from Dean of Admissions; welcomes her to the school's family) BUT, my gosh, when you see the incredible quality of kids being deferred/ rejected at these schools, still anxious until formal acceptance. Will report back Monday hopefully with happy news</p>
<p>You are all set with a likely letter from an ivy. You absolutely don't need to worry.</p>
<p>As the OP I can elaborate a little, but its pretty upsetting. I spoke to the coach the day the letters were mailed and asked our status. He told me that he didnt know, and that we would find out before he would. I am 100% sure that he knew but didnt tell me because it would show me that 1. he lied to us about the tip or 2. He had no influence over admissions.</p>
<p>It seems like NESCAC schools are maybe more resticted than most re: coaches influences, especially in secondary sports - ie, swimming. Our plan B is another LAC school in the midwest that seems more upfront about admissions, athletics, etc.</p>
<p>So we move on and know that if this is what the admissions process was like, I'm glad that we didnt invest 4 years and $200,000+ in tution. They blew it.</p>
<p>finnsdad- Interestingly, almost all the horror stories I have heard were regarding swimming, with the exception of a Princeton track recruit.
Right now this is probably not much consolation, but over the next few months your daughter will have some time to really weigh her options and will wind up at someplace better for her.</p>
<p>This makes me very worried.</p>
<p>I am sorry to hear you went throught that. It just doesn't seem right. We have had just the opposite experience regarding recruiting and coaches. S2 was recruited at both the DII and DIII level. He decided on strong (academic) DIII colleges instead while turning down a full ride at a DII college. The best part of the whole process was the coaches. I hate to say it but I really liked them all and would have supported S regardless where he choose to go. He eventually chose a really strong LAC to apply ED to and he happily got in yesterday. Keep your chin up. Things will work out!</p>
<p>finnsdad: not that this will help you at all, but exact story with a DIII University with a friend of my daughter's last year. In fact, the coach had her actually fly down for a showcase a week before she was denied (waitlisted), at her own expense.</p>
<p>I'm sorry to hear what the OP is going through. It certainly is not consistent with what my son and his friends experienced. In every case where the applicant ended up either rejected or deferred, the coach told them well in advance that they were a marginal admit and then monitored the process very closely. In some cases, the coach was even the one to call and give them the good or bad news in advance of the letter from admissions. </p>
<p>My advice would be to wait a few days to cool off and then call the coach again and ask him what happened. He may be able to give you a more complete answer then. I'd be careful about burning bridges with him (e.g. going to the AD etc.) as the college sports coaching community is very small and you don't want to burn bridges for your D. Sad but true - word will get around, painting your D as a "troublemaker".</p>
<p>I suspect that your D's stats are strong enough that she will be accepted in the regular round, and maybe the coach used his few tips for less qualified admits. This happened to a friend's D at an Ivy. So you may want to not burn your bridges at this point.</p>
<p>I am going to look at the other side of this, perhaps the coach tried to use his tip only to be squashed by admissions. However, you must remember that the final decision belongs to the admissions committee. </p>
<p>With out the admissions tip, would this school have been a reach, match or sure bet school for your D. Even at schools that are reaches for everyone, a student who has stats "within the range" of the admitted student's, it is easier for them to be admitted with the tip. For many students in secondary sports, they are academically eligible to be admitted and the coaches tip is the icing on the cake.</p>
<p>When Furstenburg was the Dean of Admissions at Dartmouth, the school ran a series of articles for amdissions. For athletic recruiting they said the following:</p>
<p>
[quote]
</p>
<p>Some speculate that athletes -- particularly those for big sports -- are given the highest preference of all. This does not appear to be the case at Dartmouth, although athletes do benefit from having a lobbyist in their coach. Coaches submit ranked lists of their recruited athletes to the admissions office. The admissions office then reviews the applications, taking into account the applicant's athletic talent and coach's recommendation.</p>
<p>"Athletic talent works in the same way other kinds of talent do. The only difference is it's a much more organized and structured recruiting process and that's a function of the NCAA and the Ivy League rules," Furstenberg said. "They tell us who they want, but there are no guaranteed number of slots."</p>
<p>But even with the ability to submit a list, some coaches expressed frustration with how little say they really have.</p>
<p>"How much clout do I have? Minimal," men's swimming coach Jim Wilson said. "If you look at my SAT scores and compare to the average SAT scores, my kids may be getting in with a 1450 instead of a 1460."</p>
<p>Wilson did, however, speculate that some of the "higher-profile sports like football may be getting a little more help."</p>
<p>Coaches are given little feedback from the admissions office before submitting their lists, according to Wilson. "I'm shooting blind," he said, adding that other schools, even in the Ivy League, are actually more lenient with athletic admissions.</p>
<p>"Some schools will say 'if he has this GPA and this SAT score were going to let him in.' Our admissions doesn't do that," Wilson said. </p>
<p>While athletic talent can bolster an application, it does not replace other criteria for admission, according to Furstenberg. If coaches do not find well qualified applicants to put on their list, they risk not getting enough players that year.</p>
<p>"If the coaches say we need nine soccer players this year, but we only think six of them are qualified, that's what they get," he said. "All of the decisions are made here; the only person at the institution who can admit someone is me."</p>
<p>TheDartmouth.com</a> | In admissions, many get ‘special’ attention
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Could the process have been more transparent? Absolutely. The coach could have told your D at the beginning if she should retake the SATs for a higher score, she would have a better chance at the school in the RD round and he would tip her then, etc.</p>
<p>So going forward, what is the plan? Will she present a equal or stronger 7th semester transcript? </p>
<p>If her scores are a little low (closer to the 25% than to the 50%) will she retake in January? </p>
<p>IF she is still interested in playing for that coach, will she find out how much of the team has actually been filled and if she has a realistic chance of still being on the team?</p>
<p>Will she send a letter of continued interest to the coach and the school that if accepted, she will attend?</p>
<p>OP, below is your post from September. </p>
<p>First, I don't know that your daughter ended up applying to Williams, so please everyone, don't make that assumption. We may be talking about a different LAC here.</p>
<p>The coach may have "lied" but it looks like you got some pretty clear advice from admissions in the summer. I'm not trying to throw this in your face, but part of the message for other student/athlete families has to be to truly listen to admissions and assume the worst, unless you have a likely letter or have signed with a team. These written agreements seem to be holding up, but the verbals are soft. </p>
<p>I feel so sad for your daughter. This has to be very disappointing for all of you. There will be another great option for her, though. Hang in there.</p>
<p>"for what its worth...
I went to Williams and my daughter has always dreamt of going there. Her SATs are also just under 1900 and GPA is good but not great. She had an admissions interview / evaluation over the summer and their advice was NOT to apply ED, but rather to concentrate on strong fall grades and possibly raising SATs. She was told flat-out that if she applied ED she would in all likelihood not be accepted</p>
<p>We appreciated the advice and left realizing that she needed to find a better fit.</p>
<p>As an alumni I am still disappointed that legact status meant very little but it also goes to show just how competitive this school (and others) are right now. "</p>
<p>
[quote]
It seems like NESCAC schools are maybe more resticted than most re: coaches influences, especially in secondary sports - ie, swimming. Our plan B is another LAC school in the midwest that seems more upfront about admissions, athletics, etc.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes, NESCAC seems to have its own regulations far above and beyond the typical D3 recruiting rules. Here is a very informative article on NESCAC recruiting written by a Williams coach a few years ago:
It's</a> All About Who Gets In</p>
<p>I think it is important to always have a fallback from a NESCAC school as an ED athletic applicant, even if you are told you will be given a "tip."</p>
<p>"It seems like NESCAC schools are maybe more resticted than most re: coaches influences, especially in secondary sports - ie, swimming. Our plan B is another LAC school in the midwest that seems more upfront about admissions, athletics, etc."</p>
<p>We have just gone through the recruiting process at several D3 schools, including ones in the NESCAC, Centennial and Liberty League conferences. As far as your statement I quoted above, it has been our understanding that the NESCAC coaches actually have MORE influence than the coaches in the other two conferences I mentioned, as they at least have a number of slots they are given that they know have a certain amount of influence. The coaches in the Centennial and Liberty League conferences were careful to tell us that they have no such slots, and can only submit a list of their top recruits and hope for the best. Knowing this, I would be inclined to agree with you that the coach was not really being up front with you, if he was a NESCAC coach. Maybe a swimming coach would have less influence, I don't know...but I agree with the other posters who said that he certainly has the ablility and responsibility to keep in touch with admissions about your chances. We are still waiting for the ED letter from my son's chosen school, but that coach was quite helpful in telling us exactly what weaknesses may or may not have been in my son's transcript after running it by Admissions and what his (the coach's) limitations were in the process. There were no promises made other than telling us that he was on the list of supported athletes.</p>
<p>As far as the other poster's reference to your September post about Williams, he/she made the assumption that Williams is where your D went ahead and applied ED to. If that was the case, then I would say the coach probably should have reinforced previous advice that your D was a tough ED admit. But perhaps you decided to apply ED to a different NESCAC school.</p>