Coleman said she’d like to begin shrinking the size of the University.

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
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<p>pretty sure the instate/out of state ratio will change in the next 10 years, it will take some time since there’s a lot of politics involved. </p>

<p>I’m not convinced that Michigan can compete on the financial aid front though for OOS students. Michigan isn’t losing OOS admitees to usnews rankings, it’s losing oos people mostly because it can’t offer as much aid due to its size. I see a healthy 50/50 instate/out-of-state mix in 10 years. </p>

<p>I looked at the demographics Cornell a few years ago, and I recall seeing Cornell having at least half of the student population from the tristate+upstate NY area.</p>

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<p>kb10 - Your insights seem right on spot to me.</p>

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<p>As an OOS parent, I think the university’s top priority should be to provide a high quality education to its students. To continue to do this, Michigan will have to look at the options such as those proposed by Alexandre. The large size of the freshman class is having an impact and if they enroll as many or more next year, it will affect the quality of education and college experience at Michigan.</p>

<p>I will agree also that U Michigan is one of the state’s best hopes for economic recovery and it’s status as an elite research university can help attract related industries to the area. But it really needs to be a partnership between the state and the university to make that happen. The state needs to offer tax incentives and a regulation friendly environment, as well as let the university implement whatever tuition/admissions scheme it needs to be financially viable. Personally, I think Alexandre’s suggestion of a mix between an increase in instate tuition and greater percentage of OOS/international students admitted would work. </p>

<p>I hope Coleman is serious about shrinking the size of the university, I really think another year with a 6,000 plus freshman class would be unfathomable.</p>

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<p>I hardly think that will become an issue even if absolutely nothing changes.</p>

<p>There is no money to fund OSS kids to the degree that would be required to change the percentages. Simply opening the floodgates to OSS students doesn’t mean those students will pony up $40,000 or more per year to attend and you can certainly believe that taking $$ to fund OSS kids would go over like one gigantic lead balloon with the Regents, and others.
The size of the freshman class will shrink next year. The early action (if Michigan can actually make a determination on all the applications on time - which they have been notoriously incapable of doing) and should allow them to manage better their IS/OS balances if they are need aware as they go through the application process.</p>

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<p>no vested interest here, but wouldn’t the original plan of a binding ED have solved some of these issues?</p>

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<p>If the goal is to increase the quality of the student body by shrinking the class this is best done by changing the IS/OOS ratio. As far as having to pay for the OOS state kids, I don’t see that being an issue. I’m not sure how often aid gets thrown around for OOS kids but I don’t think its a lot. I didn’t get anything and I easily felt my situation warranted something, especially when Illinois was giving me money.</p>

<p>The pool of students willing to go to Michigan from other states and countries is substantially larger then the pool IS. This by itself makes it crazy to take the top kids from the first group and then expect to get that same quality of student from a much smaller IS pool, and take twice as many. </p>

<p>If Michigan stays a top university OOS will be willing to pay for a better education. I was willing. Basically I feel you could dip into the less qualified , OOS students (those for example, that didn’t get in this year vs. those that did) that are willing to pay the crazy OOS fee and you would still produce a better quality student then the IS kids that just barely made it in, if only to keep some superficial ratio in place.</p>

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<p>Who said that there is a compelling need to change the quality of the student body? They need to shrink the size of the class because there are deficiencies in the infrastructure: class size, dorm space, etc. No one said a word about shrinking the class to narrow the academic range of freshman stats.</p>

<p>The “problems”, if there are any with Michigan, are not related to the caliber of students in-state or out of state and never has been. </p>

<p>Clearly you are unfamiliar with the mission of the state public higher education systems. And yes, Michigan could solve their “yield” issues through an ED system, then rolling and perhaps the university will some day. I would guess that the vast majority of those OSS apply with an “if I can afford it” attitude and ED would separate the wishers from the wanters.</p>

<p>And why on earth would you think you are “entitled” to aid from Michigan. Clearly YOUR state school was willing to give you aid to attend and that’s the way it works. You’re mixing the mission of private institutions with the mission statement of public institutions. You take care of your state students and then if you have room left over you take care of kids that want to come to your state. </p>

<p>Buy maybe I’m wasting my energy from years of reading the forums as there has always been an attitude by OSS kids that they are in some way “superior”, an attitude that is not the way to make friends and influence people. Someone needs to throw some stats up that substaintiate these claims and back them up with the graduate rates and stats of those same groups before I’ll buy that argument.</p>

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<p>“Who said that there is a compelling need to change the quality of the student body? They need to shrink the size of the class because there are deficiencies in the infrastructure: class size, dorm space, etc. No one said a word about shrinking the class to narrow the academic range of freshman stats.”</p>

<p>I agree. I see no reason for strengthening the student body. Michigan’s student body provides students with the intellectual vitality and diversity that most universities can only dream of having. This said, in attempting to fill a class of 6,300 as the University seems to be doing these days, inevitably, the bottom 25% of the class will be weak and undeserving. I ,must stress that those types of students can just as easily be OOS and International students and not merely IS students.</p>

<p>“The “problems”, if there are any with Michigan, are not related to the caliber of students in-state or out of state and never has been.”</p>

<p>Again, I agree. The point is to reduce the size of the student body to a more manageable level given the University’s resources…and to have the right mix of IS and OOS students to be able to afford the smaller student body.</p>

<p>“Clearly you are unfamiliar with the mission of the state public higher education systems. And yes, Michigan could solve their “yield” issues through an ED system, then rolling and perhaps the university will some day. I would guess that the vast majority of those OSS apply with an “if I can afford it” attitude and ED would separate the wishers from the wanters.”</p>

<p>Here, I must disagree. The mission of the University of Michigan is to provide an extraordinary education to the ordinary man. Unfortunately, its mission now is to bend down to the whims of the state of Michigan, and in the process, eventually (sooner than you may realize) put the University in a position where it can no longer afford to provide an extraodrinary education. </p>

<p>“And why on earth would you think you are “entitled” to aid from Michigan. Clearly YOUR state school was willing to give you aid to attend and that’s the way it works. You’re mixing the mission of private institutions with the mission statement of public institutions. You take care of your state students and then if you have room left over you take care of kids that want to come to your state.”</p>

<p>I agree to an extent. If the state were pulling its wieght, you would be entirely correct. But like I said, the gap between what the state is providing the University and what the university is foregoing in lost tuition as a result is $110,000,000. It is in fact OOS and international students who are bailing the Michigan out these days. Altough OOS and International students make up only 35% of the entire undergraduate student body, the undergraduate tuition-based revenues the University generates from them is far greater than 60% of the total. </p>

<p>“Buy maybe I’m wasting my energy from years of reading the forums as there has always been an attitude by OSS kids that they are in some way “superior”, an attitude that is not the way to make friends and influence people. Someone needs to throw some stats up that substaintiate these claims and back them up with the graduate rates and stats of those same groups before I’ll buy that argument.”</p>

<p>I don’t think OOS students think their are “way superior”. That certainly was not the case back in my days. But I do believe that in many instances, the University cuts many IS students a lot of slack…as well it should. However, when the University gives to the state more than the state gives to the University to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars, it is time to rethink the relationship…for the food of the University.</p>

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Exactly right. When do you think the state and taxpayers of Michigan will start to “take care” of their state students? Are you suggesting that UM should only accept the number of IS students that the state of Michigan (and it’s taxpayers) provide enough funding (take care of) and then admit only full pay OOS students with the “room left over”? Certainly you understand that YOUR approach will substantially increase OOS admissions.</p>

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<p>Momofthreeboys: fistpump!</p>

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<p>If Michigan doesn’t have an interest in strengthening the student body, then it has no reason to complain about losing its elite status as an undergraduate institution and no defense when schools like Duke, USC, Notre Dame, and Wake Forest start claiming marked superiority; They will be right.</p>

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<p>Well first of all Illinois isn’t my state school, i’m from Ohio. </p>

<p>I am not trying to say IS kids are worse in anyway. I’m sure there are plenty of really smart kids, as for any other state. I’m saying that if you reduce the student population by adjusting the IS/OOS state ratio you will in term produce a more talented student body. </p>

<p>Just by statistics, you can’t expect that if you took all the top applications from around the country/world and then expect to get that same quality if student from only michigan and have twice as many of them. If you lower the class size and adjust the ratio you could remove that bottom portion of IS kids accepted to meet a ratio and replace them with your top options from around the world. </p>

<p>I don’t want to be twenty years down the road and see my once world renowned college turn into just another state school. </p>

<p>And, i may be reading this incorrectly, you want kids from OOS that may not be able to afford the ridiculous 50k a year education to not apply? If anything this just creates a less talented student body as well. And i know the mission isn’t to produce a better one, but it would get worse as a side effect by limiting OOS applications. </p>

<p>Why does Michigan need to provide aid to the IS kids first? Especially when their tuition is half of what an OOS kid would pay. Why not just provide it to the most deserving students, in state or out. Sure this may cause some IS students to not be able to attend do to cost but like you said we have to seperate that wishers from the wanters because we don’t want students applying with an if i can afford it mentality.</p>

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<p>Tyler, a university’s elite status is determined by its faculty, resources and facilities, not its students. For this reason, Michigan has always been elite. A student’s opportunities for learning and placement at Michigan are hard to match, let alone beat.</p>

<p>That being said, with the way Michigan is enlarging its student population, I am not sure it will be able to hang on to that “elite” status much longer. In a couple of years, Michigan will receive 40,000 applications. I am willing to bet that the University will admit 20,000 of those and that the incoming freshman class with be over 7,500. Michigan does not seem capable of limiting its class to a manageable size if that entails accepting fewer than 45% of its applicants.</p>

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<p>Alex, Michigan is prepping for the larger student bodies…they started with the Big House… ;)</p>

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<p>The study looked at UG GPA at Michigan, not high school GPA.</p>

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<p>It’s funny how I have heard a few professors reference this “study” that OOS students fare only “slightly” better than IS students but they never explain what “slightly” means. Statistically, even a difference of 0.05 is significant due to the large sample size (10000+ samples from both pool). Oh and if that wasn’t enough, I have emailed every professor who have tried to quote this “study” for the source but no one was ever able to point me to the right direction… I wonder why…</p>

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<p>^^ too funny. Alexandre is correct that the essense of the college and the one on-going measurement is the quality of the faculty and resources. You students are there for 4+ years and “new ones” arrive every year. Your place in the University is not permanent nor is it long term. As far as what your “degree” means in twenty or thrity years it will not be hugely important outside of your own feelings. I don’t mean to diminish what I’m saying but an example would be Antioch one of the most progressive and top destination colleges of the 70s. It no longer exists as a main campus. It does not diminish the value of the education that the students got in that moment in time. Another example is Bennington in the 80s, turning out remarkable writers and a destination college for many young minds. Large public universities generally withstand the pressures of the moment that private colleges have and with good planning and long range vision and healthy financial statements they are much better positioned for the future.</p>

<p>I have every confidence that UofM can formulate a long range plan. One factor that sustains a world class institution is the ability to attract good students. If Michigan’s applications are climbing I seriously doubt the institution is in danger if needing to dip “lower” into qualifications instate or out of state. If OSS kids turned their backs at UofM they could still fill a freshman class with outstanding students. If anything the very bright in-state students who may have a decade ago chosen a pricey private institution are returning to Michigan…not leaving Michigan in the unsent application pile. The only students from my son’s classes in the past five years that have chosen Harvard over Michigan or Amherst over Michigan or any of the elite privates is because of the need money that was dangled in front of them. So I do believe your fears of your undergraduate diploma being diminished are something you don’t need to worry about.</p>

<p>Tyler: many schools claim many things but in some respect it is splitting hairs. The differences can be inconsequential.</p>

<p>As far as what OSS kids pay, I honestly can tell you I really don’t care. If they received no aid I wouldn’t care. I say this because I know with certainty that their public school will most likely offer them aid. Now, aid is great. There are fine institutions trying to beef up their student body so they can grow and become great institutions that will collect great students from other states and allow them to attend free. Michigan appreciates it’s OSS students and they add to their diversity initiative (read geographic, socioeconomic, ethnic, religious, and other kind of diversity you can think of) and they do what they can in a state that has been in financial trouble for years and years. But and the big elephant in the room is that can meet those objectives with a big chunk of kids whose families can afford that rate. </p>

<p>Woody: Could they educate the OSS “common man” if the people of the state of Michigan could somehow pony up more money in taxes or generate more revenue for higher education (and the multitude of other social needs in the state) of course they could but OSS kids are not “entitled” to a cheaper education in Michigan. If they receive aid it is a gift.</p>

<p>Alexandre, I do hope they don’t grow to that size. The old “adage” “you want price, quality and delivery” but you can’t have all three is just to appropriate as the University bulges. It will be a true test for the administration to manage their way through the current scenario.</p>

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<p>Hmm ok, well I am not worried how my school going down hill will affect me professionally in 20 years, but it would be nice to say I went to Michigan and have it mean something. I’m sure people from Antioch feel the same way.</p>

<p>" If OSS kids turned their backs at UofM they could still fill a freshman class with otstanding students. "</p>

<p>Sure, but you’d need to adjust the definition of outstanding. There are only so many students in Michigan that are willing to go to Michigan and “outstanding” at academics. You are already taking twice as many kids IS as OOS and you think the quality of the bottome IS kids are still the same. Now you want to get rid of all of the OOS kids and drop even lower into the IS applications? You think the top OOS students are equal to the bottom third of IS applications? That’s crazy. Michigan would commit suicide if it turned its back to OOS kids.</p>

<p>So OOS kids are not entitled to aid but IS kids are? Why would aid be soley determined by where you live. Michigan should award the most deserving kids aid, not the ones from their own backyard.</p>

<p>In my situation the OOS “common man” has better credentials then the IS kid. But the IS kid receives aid because he is IS and this some how makes him more deserving. Also they want to keep a 2:1 ratio, so say goodbye more qualified student.</p>

<p>“The only students from my son’s classes in the past five years that have chosen Harvard over Michigan or Amherst over Michigan or any of the elite privates is because of the need money that was dangled in front of them.”</p>

<p>So other schools are getting top students by offering aid, hmmm, I wonder if Michigan could do that</p>

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<p>“It’s funny how I have heard a few professors reference this “study” that OOS students fare only “slightly” better than IS students but they never explain what “slightly” means. Statistically, even a difference of 0.05 is significant due to the large sample size (10000+ samples from both pool). Oh and if that wasn’t enough, I have emailed every professor who have tried to quote this “study” for the source but no one was ever able to point me to the right direction… I wonder why…”</p>

<p>There was an actual number, I just don’t remember it. I can’t find it, but it’s around here somewhere. Someone posted it in the last few months on this forum.</p>

<p>Being statistically significant doesn’t mean that it’s not a number which would be hugely changed if the ratio went from 2:1 IS:OOS to 1:2 IS:OOS.</p>

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Maybe you haven’t asked the right people…yet</p>

<p>[Out-of-staters</a> get better grades | The Michigan Daily](<a href=“http://www.michigandaily.com/content/out-staters-get-better-grades]Out-of-staters”>Out-of-staters get better grades)

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