<p>collegehelp,
I think that you just don't get the whole college sports thing. It is possible that your commentary has some validity for some of the big state school athletic factories, but not to the schools that I (or the OP) have in mind. I think that your position is too bad because college sports really can be a lot of fun and you’d probably enjoy it if you saw first-hand just how good the experience actually is. </p>
<p>I believe you have indicated elsewhere an affiliation with Cornell. If this is your benchmark, your perspective is more understandable, but it is also very narrow and inaccurate. Ivy League sports are far more akin to Division III athletics than to the sporting programs of several of the USNWR Top 30 National Universities which have done an excellent job of providing first-rank academics with nationally competitive athletic teams. </p>
<p>I strongly suggest you visit the following colleges (all Top 30 USNWR schools) and go to one of their football or basketball games (or baseball at a few schools like Rice, Vanderbilt, U North Carolina, U Virginia, U Michigan). I think you will discover that what these kids are doing at their sporting events is not wasting time, rather they are HAVING FUN! Then come back and tell me that the institutions and the students that attend them have their values out of whack. The schools you should visit are:</p>
<p>Stanford
Duke
Northwestern
Rice
Vanderbilt
Notre Dame
Georgetown (basketball only)
USC
Wake Forest</p>
<p>And don’t forget the publics:
UC Berkeley
U Virginia
U Michigan
UCLA
U North Carolina</p>
<p>Note: I think it is very interesting that NONE of these schools are located in the Northeast. </p>
<p>To varying degrees, all of these privates compete with the Ivy League for the top academic students and certainly the state schools have a subset of students that are statistically competitive with the Ivies. But these non-Ivy schools have an athletic atmosphere and an excitement that the Ivies will never be able to replicate. It is this multi-faceted experience (along with a better and more varied social life at most of these schools) that makes these colleges such appealing choices for many, many students. </p>
<p>IMO, there is much more to college life than the library or the classroom and having your nose tucked in a book for four years. I urge the OP and other students to adopt the following: Great academics, great social life, great athletic life. Great comprehensive college undergraduate experience.</p>
<p>If you are as competitive as you suggest, these school will offer excellent engineering programs and also great banking connections. All offer D1 athletics (admittedly Rice's strength may be concentrated in their baseball program):</p>
<p>westsidewolf1989, I highly recommend checking out USC. Although I am not an engineering major, I know many students in the Viterbi School, and they love their experiences. Engineering majors are some of the most satisfied students I know at USC. In addition, from experience, USC offers an ideally balanced campus and experience. I will admit that I am not a sports person by any means, but the strengths of USC in athletics and school spirit provide an incredible supplement to the academic experience. You should definitely visit the campus during while school is in session. Like 99% of the people who visit, you will love it!</p>
<p>Don't take a school's atmosphere at face value, i.e, "oh look - it's MIT. Hm, I hear it's a nerdy place. I guess nobody likes to watch sports there." You like to watch football as much as "any state school student"?! What are you suggesting, that we have no interest in watching sports? Are you kidding me?! :P</p>
<p>You really ought to visit these schools. You'll find that they aren't a strange community of child prodigies who spend all their time thinking, doing homework, or doing research. I mean, all or most of us were once you, growing up in some "normal" high school environment, looking at colleges to apply to. You're going to find people here who are, shockingly enough, into sports, into music, into things aside from solving rubik's cubes. </p>
<p>People will have the same needs everywhere. There's no "unbalance" of academics and fun, well, at least not to the "all work and no play" side...you show me a person who doesn't want to have fun and enjoy their time at college. </p>
<p>That said, it's true that the rah-rah, school spirit atmosphere isn't the same at Caltech vs say, U of Michigan or UC Berkeley. But visit first, because it's impossible to say how much you'll enjoy a certain atmosphere when you've never been in it.</p>
<p>I totally agree with zoogies -- there are plenty of people at MIT, and Caltech too, who like to watch sports with their friends. They just tend to watch sports on TV rather than tromping down to the campus stadium.</p>
<p>A school like MIT or Caltech will be as "normal" an environment as you want to make it.</p>
<p>Well alrighty then, the clear choice for an Engineer and a sports fan is COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY. Columbia football may not be a consistent winner, but the crowd is loud [and opinionated] nevertheless.</p>
<p>zoogies,
Just so it's clear-my comments were not intended as any kind of knock on MIT or other top university. These are terrific schools with undeniably first-rate academics. My point is that there are several non-Northeastern schools that now have outstanding student bodies, strong faculties, excellent learning environments, AND also provide nationally competitive college sports teams. I am sure that there are many students at MIT and the Ivies who like sports, but the athletic environments at these schools don't have anything even close to what you can find at a Stanford/Duke/NorthwesternVanderbilt which are the four most highly regarded academic schools in the country's four most competitive athletic conferences. As I have said several times, a football game at Stanford or a basketball game at Duke is vastly better than anything you will find at the Ivies or MIT or Caltech. If that is something you like, then I believe that these schools might be a better overall fit.</p>
<p>Cornell is actually a very fitness-conscious and health-minded. Lots of people jogging and riding bikes. Numerous exercise facilities. It is a great location for sailing, hiking, skiing. Intramural sports program is great. Intercollegiate athletic program is extensive and Cornell has some nationally prominent teams. Cornell keeps things in perspective for the most part.</p>
<p>I don't really need to visit any Division I sports schools. I actually think I am one of the minority of individuals who really does "get it" about spectator sports. I also realize that there are worse ways to spend your idle time.</p>
<p>But, my original point was: if spectator sports are a significant factor in making your college choice you should reassess your criteria. I stand by that.</p>
<p>The general public is brainwashed by the sports industry and media into thinking that spectator sports are far more important than they should be. They do this so the owners and athletes can make lots of money. The reason I am cynical about spectator sports is because I want everybody to lead a satisfying, healthy, and productive life of their own. Why watch other people have fun and make lots of money? Why tolerate the corrupting influence of commercial sports on college campuses? I don't like the winner/loser mentality that is implicit in sports. Better if everyone can be successful.</p>
<p>collegehelp,
Noble sentiments, but unrealistic, especially your closing statement</p>
<p>"I don't like the winner/loser mentality that is implicit in sports. Better if everyone can be successful." </p>
<p>Bring that attitude to a demanding business environment (like Wall Street or much of Corporate America) and they will eat you for lunch. </p>
<p>As for your recreational comments, I hope you like the cold weather because it definitely affects the variety of activities and the quality of the experience. Compared to other top schools like Stanford, Duke, Rice, Vanderbilt, Emory, UCLA, UC Berkeley, USC, the temperatures in Ithaca in February are 25-40 degrees colder. I wouldn't care how many hiking or bike trails there are (particularly with the snow) and, in the Northeast, I doubt that there is much sailing going on for most of the school year. Frankly, if you really like these activities and want to enjoy them for large parts of the school year, then you'd be much better off at these other schools than at Cornell or other Northeastern schools. </p>
<p>Re Division I college sports programs, your error is to indiscriminately paint the nationally competitive American college sports scene with one large black paint brush. I get the idea from your comments that you have never been to one of the schools I mentioned or one of these sporting events that I referenced. If you don't think that football at USC or basketball at Duke or baseball at Rice is additive in a positive way to their college scenes and all the members of their communities (students, faculty, administrators, alumni, local residents), then I think you are not just uninformed, you're flat out wrong. I encourage you again to give them a closer look and maybe then you will reconsider the affirmative role that nationally competitive college athletics can play in an undergraduate experience.</p>
<p>You cant get anymore RAW RAW spirit than at fighting irish football games. Seriously, check it out... it seems perfect for your situation. Come check out the ND forum.</p>
<p>hawkette, would they really eat me for lunch in corporate America? ouch!</p>
<p>I guess you have to be an aggressive competitor on the football field of life.</p>
<p>I don't think I am unrealistic at all. In my reality, competence and cooperativeness seem to be the norm. Is the business world really such a jungle? I think most businesses fail because of bad location, bad ideas, and bad products. Cannibalism is not permitted under Chapter 11.</p>
<p>I think the world is a friendlier place, at least most of it.</p>
<p>But, your "eat you for lunch" metaphor was an interesting choice. Kind of Freudian.</p>
<p>By the way, I know that lots of students like to watch football and basketball. I don't deny that. Lots of people like to watch soap operas and chew gum, too.</p>
<p>A good safety for the OP would be UT-Austin. Great engineering program (probably could easily get into Engineering Honors) and you can't beat the sports/social life.</p>
<p>Stanford, Duke, and Cornell all stand out as places you should look at. Rice is also a good choice, though baseball is more of their strong sport.</p>
<p>Also, when visiting gf in Boston, I went to a Kappa Sig party at MIT and it was really insane - so don't think that just because most MIT kids are tame all are.</p>
<p>"Lots of people like to watch soap operas and chew gum, too."</p>
<p>Very funny. But I'm not sure if we can sell tickets to this or if the concession or TV rights will have any value. :) </p>
<p>As for your comment about business friendliness, I agree that your suggested mode of thinking/problem solving would be better and wouldn't we all love to think well of our fellow man (or woman). But the reality, going back as far as Sun Tzu, is that this is war and that applies to love, politics, war, business…and maybe even college admissions. </p>
<p>Anyway, I hope someday you make it out to one of the previously suggested sporting venues. I think a personal visit might completely change your view.</p>
<p>thethoughtprocess,
How do you square your recommendation of Cornell with the OP's stated preferences?</p>
<p>"i really want that college atmosphere (school spirit, pep rally, diversity, rah-rah sports games, that type)"</p>
<p>makshim-
No, I am a male. And, I played soccer, basketball and track in HS. (Shot-putter on the track team.) I am actually a reformed sports fan.</p>
<p>collegehelp,
Given your high school sports experience, I am even more surprised by your attitude towards college sports (unless you attended a private school where playing multiple sports is common and frequently even required because maybe you've not been exposed to the same environments of academic AND athletic excellence that I am thinking of). Was there any one event or set of events that shaped your current view? Furthermore, do you really mean to apply as broadly as it appears?</p>
<p>The Cornell frat scene is active and they have a lot of hockey fans...but its also a good engineering school with Wall Street recruitment, and is slightly easier in terms of selectivity than Stanford, Duke, and Rice.</p>
<p>thethoughtprocess,
When I created the social life thread, I listed the following criteria:
*Welcoming nature and friendliness of the students
*Musical scene (both locally and for bands that come through)
*Athletic scene for entertainment purposes, ie, sports teams
*Greek life (good or bad)
*Strength of party scene
*Size, diversity and cohesiveness of the student body and how this impacts social life
*Weather and its impact on social activities
*Proximity to urban life/arts
*Student activities including community service, club activities, intramural sports, etc.
*Alcohol and drug scene</p>
<p>I suspect that Cornell lags the mentioned schools on many, if not most, of these criteria. </p>
<p>Academically and engineering-wise, I think we all accept Cornell as a terrific school. However, I do think it benefits greatly from its association with the Ivy League. If not for that, then it might well be closer to a school like U Rochester than it would be to Princeton. There are TONS of kids who apply (and probably attend) there because it is an Ivy and the easiest one to get into. Take that Ivy affiliation away and the story has a lot less appeal. </p>
<p>Re athletics, great that Cornell has a lot of hockey fans. Do you think any college sports fan outside of the Northeast knows or cares anything about that program? Contrast that with USC football, Duke basketball, Rice baseball, etc. and the differences are enormous. Cornell and the other Ivies cannot compete athletically with the schools that I have mentioned throughout this thread (Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Rice, Notre Dame, USC). The scene associated with these non-Northeastern schools and their football/basketball/baseball athletic programs is much, much bigger and better than Cornell and any of the Ivies. If you've been to any of these schools and seen it first-hand, it is obvious and it is exciting and it is FUN!</p>