<p>S took the very first Italian AP only three years ago.It was so new he was the only kid presenting a score on it to his large flagship state U.Fortunately they gave him language credit.He'll be sad to see it go,he enjoyed the class as did the venerable but highly enegetic Italian teacher who taught it at his HS.</p>
<p>
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exams for which no colleges offer credit (Human Geography, Comparative Government)
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</p>
<p>There are colleges that offer credit for each of these. </p>
<p>In reply to other participants, some computer science people think dropping the AP computer science AB course (which my son is taking right now, thus dodging this bullet) would allow high school courses to go back to using C++ rather than Java, which some computer science educators think would be a good idea. I hope my son can take a course based on Scheme through dual enrollment next year.</p>
<p>It's unfortunate that you don't think about the consequences of the CB's action as their action impacts students currently enrolled in and those Juniors and Seniors that have already enrolled in the classes for next year.</p>
<p>The CB decision is not just a matter of cutting out an exam, the school systems cut the class! That's right, announced yesterday in my sons computer class, after the release by the CB, the 2nd year AP class has been cut! </p>
<p>When the Computer Science industry, from Lockheed to Google (and the list of companies is long) is in dire need of employees, the CB cuts cuts a program, not just an exam.</p>
<p>I reviewed the the Computer Science AP course and test data found on the CB website. Their data reflects that a total of 15706 students took the CS exams, 11,744 took the A with an average score of 2.88. 3,962 took the AB with an average score of 3.40. </p>
<p>It appears that some who have posted previously on this thread are correct; the CB made their decision because not on the educational benefit to students, rather they based their decision on the number of students.</p>
<p>And then these supposed educators wonder why the kids aren't more prepared when they get to college! (IMHO)</p>
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the CB made their decision . . . on the number of students
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</p>
<p>That issue matters, because there is an irreducible expense and effort required to develop a new exam each year and administer and score it, and if the exam in that subject is taken by few students, that drain on teacher time and effort might be better devoted to some other effort to promote study of the subject. My son is taking the AP computer science AB examination as a sophomore. Any current junior or current sophomore who was planning to take the exam as a junior is not inconvenienced by this announcement at all--the test will still be offered in the 2008-2009 school year (that is, in May 2009). </p>
<p>Courses in computer science will be still be offered to high school students whether or not there is an AB test. I'm sure the EPGY courses </p>
<p><a href="http://epgy.stanford.edu/courses/cs/%5B/url%5D">http://epgy.stanford.edu/courses/cs/</a> </p>
<p>will be offered for the foreseeable future, and many young people who like computer science already to their learning through dual enrollment in local colleges. It's a little annoying that such students will know longer have a recognized external test to validate their learning, but transcript evaluation or, for higher level students, participation in USACO or other programming extracurriculars will still provide channels for demonstrating knowledge gained before high school.</p>
<p>Many of the CS-oriented kids we know learned C++ before Java. USACO competitions support programmers who use both languages -- but the preponderance of USACO folks use C++.</p>
<p>However, in looking at the entry-level CS courses at schools DS is considering (all of which have strong CS departments), I find the following: Harvey Mudd is using Python in its first CS course, Scheme and Java in the second. UChicago and MIT use Scheme in its first CS courses. UMD uses Java. </p>
<p>The important point is that AP CS should develop basic algorithm development skills so that a student can pick up any language and learn it.</p>
<p>I can clearly see the consequence of it to the students. Being a Junior myself, I would be affected too about the Computer Science course. First of all, my point is you can not do much about it, if these AP Courses are minority (since these courses are the ones with least enrolled people, even if you have written or any other protests, that would not be big enough to revert the change, well, i'm not saying it's impossible, but very unlikely). Don't take me being pessimistic, I'm just trying to be realistic, if that helps. </p>
<p>Given that fact, I believe that the students who are seriously interested in that topic, and even if s/he is not, there are always online courses and CC courses that can make up for the AP Exams. Teachers would always be willing to even facilitate an independent study. I am not saying that the elimination of the four courses are great or even okay. I'm saying that the students just may have to deal with them. After all, thankfullly not more than four AP exams have been eliminated. </p>
<p>Just by taking AP Comp Sci AB, I seriously doubt if that will help you decide whether you wanna major in Computer Science in college! I'm pretty sure you are aware of the fact that more than half (I remember it as being 80% but don't count on that) college students change their major at least once by their junior year. And, the AP Exams are certainly not designed to help students decide whether they want to major in it, but are designed to see whether the students actually like and can handle the supposedly college level course work. And moreover, AP Exams have the reputation of not preparing the students up to the expected college level. So, the parents and the students should take the AP Courses with the mentality to accept the greater course level challenge, not being able to determine their major from those! </p>
<p>About the classes being cut, well, if there are enough students who want to learn the course, and provided that the teachers and school admins decide to keep the same GPA points for that course, it may prevent the course from being eliminated. But then again, most of the top students in a lot of HS are very AP-oriented, I'm not saying that's bad, which would affect the classes, but it's totally upto the teachers, school admins and students to decide whether the course would be eliminated or not.</p>
<p>Innovative,
School systems are facing budget crunches due to the economic situation and falling tax receipts, so courses that do not lead to AP rigor (for those school systems who are heavily data-driven and like to be at the top of Jay Mathews's list) are the first ones to be eaten by budget cuts. </p>
<p>School administrators do NOT always have control over what courses are offered. Teachers are not always given planning periods to teach students in advanced subjects. In fact, some are being forced to give up planning periods in the name of budget cuts. </p>
<p>If the College Board concludes that a subject is not worthy of its support, odds are that the school systems will conclude the same thing. Not saying it's right or fair, but it is a reality. (sigh -- whatever happened to education as a means of broadening one's horizons?)</p>
<p>I've been talking about CS because that's in our family's realm of experience. Neither of my kids are heavily into foreign languages (unfortunately -- I would love to have reason to refresh my rusty German.).</p>
<p>EPGY is pretty darned expensive. We never considered it or CTY as an option. DS1 taught himself and then did more formal training through USACO. By the time he took CS AB, he was well beyond the coursework.</p>
<p>Thank you, CountingDown. As I was getting ready to send this, I saw your post and thats exactly what is going on. </p>
<p>Innovative, you said students should take the AP Courses with the mentality to accept the greater course level challenge, not being able to determine their major from those!</p>
<p>Thats exactly what my S was doing. He has set his course schedule to accept the greater course level challenge, BUT the course has to be offered. We absolutely realize that these courses are not necessarily his career. Instead, hes taking courses that prepare him (math/science) and he needs to have them available thru his senior year, no gaps. </p>
<p>The data I referenced from the CB website does not disclose the number of students that took the course, only the numbers that took the exam, so more students could have taken the classes. </p>
<p>While I understand that the CB is not responsible for the courses offered in the schools, I absolutely believe they have a significant influence. Colleges are sending a clear message that they want students that have taken a challenging curriculum; the CB AP Program has been instrumental in forcing the schools to offer the more challenging courses. So if the CB cuts an exam or program, some schools will, and did react. And not in the students favor.</p>
<p>I think they should drop CS A and keep CS AB. If students are not strong enough then don't take AP classes. Only kids who can have 3+ on the exams should be allowed to take APs. Weaker kids should wait until they actually go to college. I don't see the point of supporting CS A with 2.88 average while dropping CS AB with 3.4 average (see calvertmom post #23).</p>
<p>
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Why doesn't CB cut the exams for which no colleges offer credit (Human Geography, Comparative Government)?
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</p>
<p>This masks the TRUE problem with the AP program. As the names indicates, this should be an ADVANCED PLACEMENT program and not an ADVANCED CREDIT program. </p>
<p>Drastically reducing ALL credits should be a step in the right direction and curtailing a program that accomplishes little but robbing students of the benefit or a real high school education AND four years of REAL college.</p>
<p>well said xiggi. I completely agree how we, HS students, view the AP Exams as gaining free college credits....a lot of ppl do self study by getting an AP prep book like a month b4 the exams just for the sake of getting the college credits for a lot of exams.</p>
<p>What do all of you think about the advisability of placement tests as a prerequisite for taking an AP course in high school, in general?</p>
<p>Yes, it's awful, isn't it, how the only opportunity some kids have for challenging work in high school is to take such courses? Keep all the kids who learn easily and well in regular classes so that they are even more bored in school; do away with all AP courses! Let all students take the same classes, regardless of their ability!</p>
<p>Xiggi- I took 7 AP courses knowing full well that I wouldn't get credit for them (technically generic "social science" and "humanities" credits- but I'm a triple major in 2 social sciences and a humanities so it's not like I even counted them). Most people I know were very similar in their mindsets about APs. The exams were just a way to test ourselves. </p>
<p>What makes me sad is that this could actually affect AP Spanish lit classes. I took both AP Spanish courses in high school and there were actually more AP French lit students than there were AP Spanish lit! At my school, students are lucky enough to be able to take upper level IB French courses, but honestly, IB HL Spanish was much easier than AP Spanish lit.</p>
<p>The clear direction of the College Board, as well as many school districts, is to encourage as many students as possible to prepare for and take these and other challenging courses. They are against discouraging students from taking the courses, and look to find other students who might benefit from the courses.</p>
<p>I actually agree with the policy that AP courses (and, correspondingly, the AP tests) ought to be broadly available to all comers. But I regret the LOUSY preparation a lot of American students get in middle school, such that they don't dare take an AP course as a freshman and maybe only take one or two as a sophomore.</p>
<p>tokenadult, many many high schools don't offer AP courses to freshmen, so even if freshmen wanted to take them, they couldn't. S couldn't have taken one in his current school unless he'd been ready for calculus; there are very very few freshmen who are prepared to take calc. S will take two AP courses next year, one of them AP Comp Sci, which is usually not open to sophomores because they generally can't get the prereq until their sophomore or junior year. (S got the prereq waved.) </p>
<p>I agree with you about middle school, BTW. </p>
<p>mom2three, yes, school districts encourage taking the courses; I think it is often because of the "Challenge Index" that Jay Mathews devises every year, which doesn't regard *outcome<a href="performance%20on%20the%20AP%20exam">/i</a> at all.</p>
<p>Couldn't they do away with both CompSci courses and just have AP Computer Science, and make it harder than A but easier than AB, if they can't afford to have both? </p>
<p>The whole point of AP is challenge, I don't see why they can't just cut CompSci A. It's one of those APs that's only equivalent to one semester of a college course, right?</p>
<p>Xiggi: Its one thing to suggest they reduce credits; its totally different to suggest that a program be curtailed. </p>
<p>As I said before, colleges have sent a clear message; students need to take a challenging curriculum. So, if a student takes the course and chooses not to take the test (for whatever reason), the college app looks better and the student is better prepared for college. A win, win. I dont see how taking challenging courses and being tested on them could be viewed as robbing a student of the benefit of, or a real high school education. </p>
<p>(We won't even mention the whole chapter that could be discussed about not challenging students and teaching to the middle)</p>
<p>As far as the credits, yes, weve all seen the colleges make significant changes over the past few years. Some have reduced while others have eliminated, and yes, some of that was probably good. However there are students that should have the opportunity to move past one of the college intro classes and the AP program provides the mechanism to evaluate those students. Here again, I personally dont believe that allowing some qualified students to move past some of the college intro classes would rob them of their college years either. </p>
<p>I do agree with coolweather. In fact, it is my intention to contact the CB and suggest that they take another look at the CS program. Maybe, by keeping the CS AB exam and eliminating the CS A exam, more of the 11,000+ students would take another CS class and be more prepared before taking the exam. Id rather make the call and know I tried. Maybe if enough people called, expressed their concerns and made suggestions, they might relook at it instead of just shutting it down.</p>
<p>I certainly don't think they should eliminate the CS A exam! It serves many well. Many schools only have the budget for one CS course and CS A is it. I just think the CS AB exam should be available to those who are ready for it.</p>