<p>Interesting question. We have both AP courses and a college institute program where kids can take college courses sponsored by our local community college. Basically, you can take any course that does not have an AP equivalent.</p>
<p>There is a catch 22 to all this. We have found that taking college course actually has a better chance of getting credit than that of AP courses. In addition, these college courses are easier in my opinion. For example, to get any AP credit, you need to do well on the AP exam, which may not be related to the material covered in the AP course. With college courses, you simply must pass the course, and the final is based on the college text book used!Moreover, many colleges have limits on AP credits that they will give, where no limit is usually placed on actual college courses taken.</p>
<p>However, according to a college lecturer, the downside is that colleges want to see AP courses more than actual college courses. I am unsure of the reason for this.
Personally, I would take the college courses.</p>
<p>
[quote]
He is still ahead of the game but until classes get more specialized, toward the bottom, senority-wise, of the next level?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm not sure what you mean. We're worried about how being one of the last to register will affect his schedule, particularly around popular or crowed required classes. He hopes to graduate after only 3 years. A serious scheduling conflict could hurt his chances.</p>
<p>BTW, I'm not sure how many schools do this. I advanced placed out of as many classes (OK, a few decades ago) but received both credit and standing.</p>
<p>I guess I think that while the sophomore year is going to be difficult scheduling the popular pre-requisite courses, as he progresses further in his major, there should be far less competition for each class, that classes will tend to be smaller in general and that while there may be a quota, there could be more leniency in admitting an additional student. Maybe he can take some upper-level courses that don't have pre-requisites out of typical sequence. Anyway, I do wish him luck - that is an unexpected (for me) consequence of advanced placing.</p>
<p>A couple things to add: you don't have to be enrolled in an AP course to take the exam. Your student could take a local college equivalent, buy the book (I think it's called "Acorn" or something like that - available on the college board website) and self-study to prep for the exam. Might end up with the best of both worlds - local college credit that some colleges will accept and a high enough AP score that would be acceptable to other colleges. It makes sense to me that the AP is a national standard and therefore would seem to be more acceptable to all colleges. Who knows what's going on in individual community colleges or Harvard Extension courses around the country? </p>
<p>Another factor to consider: you mentioned long distance to get to college courses. Would student be driving herself? Would winter weather be a factor? Also, I wonder what impact it has on a student to be stepping outside their high school. For students who aren't taken with the local h.s. scene, it can be a godsend. For some, though, I think it might be isolating - they're neither fully in the high school scene nor sharing the same age/interests as the college students they're in class with. It can be the best of both worlds or leave a student stranded. </p>
<p>Whether colleges accept transfer credit or AP credit seems to vary. As you've said, you have no idea where d. will end up, but you might want to survey the policies of a range of possible schools to get a sense. In the end, I don't think you can anticipate everything and just have to make the best choice for this year. Their desires and needs can change radically from year to year.</p>
<p>Echoing others, I would guess one imp. reason for adcoms preferring the APs to the cc courses, is that not just that the curricula of the former is more transparent and consistent, but that the student body is more known or knowable, as well. There are far too many comm. colleges in the US for adcoms to know about many of them, except more prominent ones and/or ones within the region of the college in question. There are comm. colleges near us which are largely populated by students with GPA's hovering between 1.8 and 2.5, and whose language skills are dismal, although most are native speakers. In a nearby county there are colleges mostly populated by highly educated adults and some very good h.s. graduates. One c.c., for example, includes a student with an advanced degree from Oxford, receiving preparation in a new field, as well as accomplished independent-study h.s. students who have earned significant college credits while completing the State's h.s. requirements. I draw that out only because standing in relation to one's classmates is an important element of 4-yr college admissions decisions.</p>
<p>So, AP as a preference.
Comm. college courses as 2nd choice. If this, I would not only do what Strick did, but possibly find a way to mention the demonstrated ability of the class & the challenge those students presented to the applicant.
Yet I would like to qualify that by saying that c.c. courses can be looked upon quite favorably if a student has sought out a subject quite supplemental to the h.s. curriculum -- for example, a specialty science or an additional foreign language or some other academic "passion."</p>
<p>For the record, Princeton students are not permitted to double-major.</p>
<p>Trust me on this: we have examined AP vs. transfer policies of many schools. In most cases, to receive credit for AP courses you need at least a "3" and in many cases a " 4" or even a "5" on the exam. Even with this, many colleges either aren't accepting AP courses or put a limit on the amount they will accept. Their reasoning is that AP courses are not really akin to a true college course with a college professor and college students. This obviously is generally what I have noticed. There are exceptions. Thus, you need to investigate this at all colleges that you are interested in.</p>
<p>Regular college courses, even at community colleges, are usually easier to get credit for. The reason is that all colleges accept transfer credits. Regular college courses are akin to transfer credits. Moreover, few, if any, have the same limitations that they have on AP courses. In addition, with college courses, you get a midterm and a final. The final usually covers only half the course unlike that of the AP exam that covers the whole course. However,the college must have a similar course in order to give college credit for it. Again, you should investigate each college of interest. However, I have found that, as a general rule, regular college courses are more readily acceptable than that of AP courses.</p>
<p>There is a difference between applying as a freshman and applying as a transfer in the way APs and college courses are treated. For a transfer, the courses taken in the college from which the applicant is transferring count. APs may or may not be counted. For a student applying as a freshman, APs are more readily accepted. Many colleges limit the number of APs that can be used for credit because of residential requirements. At Harvard,for example, it does not matter if you got 5s on or 32 AP exams You need scores of 5 on at least 4 APs and that's it, because Harvard will only let students advance by one year. So the 5 courses for which S got undergraduate credit at Harvard will not count; but 4 of the 6 APs he took qualify him for AS, which I suspect he will not avail himself of.</p>
<p>"Another factor to consider: you mentioned long distance to get to college courses. Would student be driving herself? Would winter weather be a factor? Also, I wonder what impact it has on a student to be stepping outside their high school. For students who aren't taken with the local h.s. scene, it can be a godsend. For some, though, I think it might be isolating - they're neither fully in the high school scene nor sharing the same age/interests as the college students they're in class with. It can be the best of both worlds or leave a student stranded. "</p>
<p>Other good points to consider. Winter IS a factor. Constant after school involvement will probably help with the other issues.</p>
<p>
[quote]
For some, though, I think it might be isolating - they're neither fully in the high school scene nor sharing the same age/interests as the college students they're in class with. It can be the best of both worlds or leave a student stranded. "
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Taking college classes as a highschooler CAN be isolating. For my S, it was not so much the age factor as it was the fact that students dispersed after the class. There was no socializing; that's true, too, of high school classes. Much of the socializing my S has done in hs has taken place in his ECs and at lunchtime (however, one of S's teachers did mention that S and two other chums yakked constantly in class). . A good thing was that the college classes tended to be in the evening, so he had the afternoons to engage in his hs ECs and to socialize. But it did take a little bit of an effort (a couple of classes started at 4pm) and he had to limit the ECs he took part in.</p>
<p>I have been noticing that Stanford is cutting back on the amount of credit awarded for AP classes before college. However, I do not think they can cut back much more because it may impact thier own EPGY math and science programs. I notice that the AP credit they will accept are math, science and language so I will be watching what they do with language.</p>
<p>I have been noticing that Stanford is cutting back on the amount of credit awarded for AP classes before college.</p>
<p>Just as I believe they don't give credit for college courses used for high school credit. I'm not sure why they're doing it, but it appears they're cutting back across the board.</p>
<p>I will say that my S thought it was because they wanted to get all the money out of a student they could. I'm not quite that cynical. :D</p>
<p>
[quote]
I will say that my S thought it was because they wanted to get all the money out of a student they could. I'm not quite that cynical.
[/quote]
Many colleges are increasing the number of courses for which they grant credit and/or placement up to a maximum (i.e. soph standing), albeit more are now requiring 4's and 5's. The elite colleges' actions - Harvard's AS policy is fairly strict, and Stanford decreasing the AP exam results they will accept - has lead me to be that cynical. College profs who are knowledgable about the AP course I teach and are involved in grading the exams, writing the exams, and in some cases, writing the texts, are uniformly in agreement that the AP course is much better than their own introductory college course. They are envious of the depth of understanding our students gain over a seven month period (excluding vacation time) compared to their 15 weeks. I've heard a zillion times their complaint that their college students couldn't do as well on the AP exam. If this sentiment translates to other disciplines as well, what else could it be but the $$ and self-preservation of those asst prof and TA jobs for the intro classes?</p>
<p>Harvard's policy is both more and less strict than that of other colleges, such as Stanford or Princeton, or Williams, or Yale, or Wesleyan (which does not grant AS and allows only 2 AP credits to be used to get out of requirements). It is stricter in the sense that it only accepts scores of 5. It is less strict in that it does not grant only half credit for certain courses (such as AP-Euro and APUSH) as do Williams or Princeton. HYPS will not grant credit for certain AP courses (these are often referred to on CC as AP-lite). Caltech is known for making students with perfect APs retake the courses anyway.</p>
<p>Maize&Blue, I fully agree. I have always felt that AP classes are MUCH tougher than the equivalent college course. However, despite this, more and more colleges are increasingly requiring either higher scores to obtain credit or limiting the amount of credit that they will accept. I am even noting that more colleges seem to be requiring a "5" to obtain credit, which seems rediculous.</p>
<p>An even more disturbing trend is the fact that more and more colleges aren't accepting any AP credit at all! This is why I am certainly recommending taking college courses over those of AP.</p>
<p>There's also the question of cost. At one time, our school district paid the the $83 (or whatever it is) fee for an AP exam. CC credits certainly cost more than that, and local private college credits are still more expensive. I wonder how colleges evaluate the record of a student in a high school with AP courses offered, but who chose to do cc courses instead. And in colleges that accept cc credit, what minimum grade do they require? I realize no one can answer these questions; it depends on the school doing the evaluating.</p>
<p>It does depend on the college. It also depends on the hs, how credit and grades are handled. At our hs, there is not weighting of grades. But grades for college courses are recorded as Pass/Fail.</p>
<p>How do colleges evaluate? For admission, any course that is challenging is a plus, as long as the student gets a B or better. I don't know whether it makes a real difference if the student chooses to take the college course when the AP course is available. My S took College Bio instead of AP-Bio because of scheduling conflict. In previous years, some of his schoolmates had taken College Bio because they did not like the AP-Bio teacher. They took the AP exam, however, as did my S.
By the way, in terms of quality: the college bio course covered the same material (with same textbook) as the AP-Bio class, but in about 2/3 of the time. There was much less handholding, fewer tests and quizzes, and more time on task as opposed to goofing.</p>