<p>Nowadays AP is almost an index for kid success and smartness. Does AP reflect kids the potential and ability to adopt to college. I doubt it because
kids get too much more attention at HS than what they are going to get at real college life. At college/university, students get to take care of his or her own. It is not uncommon that kids get lost after entering college, even they were good students at HS.</p>
<p>there are all sorts of public/private/community colleges/university around. Why don't let HS kids take course there. Let them experience college "academic" life. There are more than a hundrend students squeezed into auditorium style "classroom", professor/instructor doesn't match your name with your face, perhaps until the end of semester if you don't go his or her help hours. that's real academic life on college campus. no one monitors
your absence or your study. if you fail, come back next semester to retake it.
Does AP provide such a situation ? obviously NO. The reasons for academically good HS kids to fail at college are not to be less challenged but oversupervised at HS life from parents/teachers/school, They are lost without such supervision. I don't think kids who want to go to college lack
motivation to success and smartness to learn things. Best preparison for college is to learn things without teachers/parents/peers attention, learn to not get lost when no one around you care and pay attention to your studey.
AP is definitely not fit to this.</p>
<p>There are reasons why colleges prefer AP courses to college courses taken while in high school. The principal one is that the AP curriculum is spelled out and uniform throughout the country. College courses, however, vary enormously in their scope and level of difficulty. While Stanford would have no trouble interpreting the quality of a course taken at the Harvard Extension School, it would not be in a position to evaluate the quality of a course taken at, say Roxbury Community College in Boston. The quality of students at many colleges and their reason for attending vary enormously as well. Students choosing to take a community college course over an AP class at their school might find themselves together with college students in need of remedial help rather than with high- achieving peers. </p>
<p>I don't understand why should the best preparation for college be college? If that is the reasoning, why not ditch high school altogether and start college earlier? </p>
<p>As for learning without teachers/parents/peers attention, my S is part of a study group formed the very first week of class in one course. In another course, he has sections; the section leader takes attendance and requires any work that is missed to be made up. His other two courses are actually smaller than the usual high school class size (12 vs. 30) and any student's absence is duly noted.
Additionally, most colleges nowadays have a bureau of study skills, a math center, a writing center, workshops on reading strategies, etc...</p>
<p>Running start or community college while in high school- can be a valid choice- I disagree that students in high school classes are taking classes with students who need remedial help at community colleges. HIgh school students in running start for example, must take college level coursework, taking a placement test to do so. Why would a student who wasn't in high school, who passed the placement test to take that class, be remedial?
It is true that community college courses vary, but so do high school classes including APs and 4 year college classes. FOr a student who works/plays sports , a community college class can be difficult to schedule, but can be a time saver.</p>
<p>Districts are now expecting students to take running start classes or online classes to fulfill not their graduation requirements but their college entrance requirements.
If high schools accept the running start work as part of the high school graduation requirements , I don't see a problem.
The college doesn't need to process the credit as a transfer credit- it is simply part of the high school transcript.
Other data is used to evaluate application as well, essays, test scores, recommendations, it isn't as if everything hinges on the community college class being "understood" by the accepting university.</p>
<p>I did not say that high schoolers WILL find themselves with students needing remedial help at community colleges; but that they MIGHT. There's a world of difference between these two words. And that is the problem for college adcoms: knowing which is which. Let's face it, Roxbury Community College ain't Harvard Extension School.</p>
<p>Taking community college classes may work for state universities that have a well developed system of dual credits. But just look up a recent post re: the MIT adcom discouraging students from taking community college courses.</p>
<p>Why AP? From a student perspective, AP courses are the most rigorous courses available at a high school. These are the courses my D would take with or without the possibility of college credit.</p>
<p>I don't know about either of those schools because I am on the left coast ;)
but I still don't get the problem- say someone is taking a class that doesn't need a placement test- anthropology for example- if there are a couple students who don't pass the class- how is that different from taking the class at college where the curve mandates that a few might not pass the class or in high school?
I can see some real benefits to community college classes. Ap classes are not offered at all schools, and while I agree that it is assumed they are a higher level of work than entry level community college courses, some times they are not an appropriate option.
Some colleges also don't have a problem with community college coursework.
My daughter who is at Reed college majoring in biology, has been taking a community college class each summer, to enable her not to have to overload during the school year. She has the course approved beforehand, and takes classes that aren't offered at Reed, like geology and they are approved to meet her college graduation requirements. She even took a year long organic chemistry class last year at the community college that is approved for her major requirement. So while some schools might not bother to evaluate CC classes, some colleges will .</p>
<p>see thread: AP or Dual enrollement? on the College Admissions board.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My daughter who is at Reed college majoring in biology, has been taking a community college class each summer, to enable her not to have to overload during the school year. She has the course approved beforehand, and takes classes that aren't offered at Reed, like geology and they are approved to meet her college graduation requirements.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Precisely: Reed pre-approved your D's plan, presumably knowing the quality of the cc. This is not an option available to high schoolers applying to colleges. Presumably, too, your D is no longer eligible to take AP classes. You are really not comparing like with like. I would bet that Harvard has no problem accepting courses taken from Stanford through EPGY (I KNOW it has). But courses from Roxbury College? Never heard of that happening.</p>
<p>with taking community college courses rather than AP: check the quality. Our high school APs are much, much, MUCH harder than comparable courses at the local regional UNIVERSITY - it's not even a community college! The courses at this 4th tier university are a joke. I know from many years of experience as a volunteer. I'm glad my kids took AP US History at the high school rather than at this university; same with intro English courses, etc. I can't even begin to contrast them - there was no comparison.</p>
<p><edit> I must have been writing while Marite was posting above. I agree 100%. My kids did take an Ivy League course which was accepted, but I can't imagine the local u's courses being accepted.</edit></p>
<p>"I don't know about either of those schools because I am on the left coast"</p>
<p>Even on the left coast people have heard of Harvard, no? So have adcoms. But no one need feel guilty about not knowing about Roxbury Community College whose recent brush with fame (or rather infamy) was due to some financial shenanigans on the part of the previous president, and whose students probably have SAT scores that are not in the same league as Harvard.</p>
<p>One should take the most challenging curriculum available. AP courses are considered the most challenging for high school students, and the adcoms know how to evaluate them. My S was told to NOT enroll at a community college, not because it was bad, but because the adcoms could not evaluate the courses. If, however, no AP's are available, and the HS is historically weak, community college courses may be the best choice.</p>
<p>Harvard Extension school is not the same as "Harvard"
Other colleges have extension schools- and course curricula and instructors are very different as are the students from the college classes at university.</p>
<p>I did notice that Harvard extension school will grant transfer credits for courses taken at an accredited college. I assume that community colleges are accredited.
Ive agreed that in general AP classes are monitored closer, but sometimes a community college class is appropriate.
I have taken some very good classes at community colleges by profs who the very next year went to schools like Northwestern.
I also have taken classes that were less rigorous.
High school students are not likely to take all their core requirements at Running start- and if they can provide the syllabus and perhaps an example of work, I don't see why there should be a blanket pronouncement that CC classes should not be taken by students attempting to enter college.
In some areas AP classes are not available, but CC classes are and I wouldn't want those students to feel that they have limited options becuase of that.</p>
<p>For what it's worth, my d. did both cc and 4-year college classes (66 credits worth), and took three AP exams without ever taking an AP course. None of the colleges she applied to said "boo". At the college she ended up at, they had their own placement exams for the subjects in which she had taken AP exams, so the APs were absolutely worthless, both for placement and for credit, and (relative to the college courses) were irrelevant in admissions as well. They would allow her to use the cc credits only if she was ill and needed them to graduate or in a situation similar.</p>
<p>1) nearly every community college that I'm aware (including Montgomery County) has small classes, and are not packed with "hundreds" in a lecture hall. Ditto LACs. </p>
<p>2) One counseling office in our District puts into writing that the cc class will almost always be easier than than the high school AP. But, the GC does recommend community colleges for the B+ student, so they can earn a grade boost for the UC's. The UC's also recognize that the community colleges are usually easier, but, for obvious reasons, cannot disparage that college path. Adcoms at private schools, however.......</p>
<p>There are many schools that don't have "Running Start" - I don't know what it is. In fact, I've never heard of it before, so I doubt it would do my d any good.</p>
<p>As far as taking college courses (any college, not just cc), there are two issues for us:</p>
<p>1) Our school district will not recognize them if the high school offers a course in the same subject, unless the student has finished the highest level of courses offered at school. That's generally AP. So my d's AP class will count towards her graduation requirements while a college course will not. She'd have to take another course to make up the credits. For a busy kid, that's not an option.</p>
<p>2) Since my d's in a public high school, AP courses are free; I'd have to pay tuition for her to take a college course. I'll be doing that soon enough, thank you!</p>
<p>As homeschoolers, my sons took classes three places: home, the local high school, and the local community college. While the local high school is decent, it tends to emphasize sports more than academics and only has a few AP classes: English Lit, Calculus, and a couple history ones. Each of my sons took one AP class at the high school, along with other classes (math and science for one son, science and music for another). Both took several classes at our excellent community college. Many of these were classes not offered at the high school, such as Japanese and engineering. My second son chose to take Calculus at the community college, because the AP calc course at the high school was equivalent to less than half a year of college calc.</p>
<p>Both of my sons have had these courses accepted for transfer credit (even though admitted as freshmen) by Stanford and Indiana University. They also really enjoyed the variety of students they met in the cc classes and the rigor of the classes. (Calculus and engineering were DEFINITELY challenging!)</p>
<p>My opinion would be that it all depends upon the local situation. In some places AP would be best; in others CC classes would be more appropriate. This is definitely not a "one size fits all" situation.</p>
<p>Minshu, I don't think that colleges want the kids to take AP's as a way of reflecting their ability to do college work. I think they like the AP's more as a way of insuring that the high school work is at a minimum standard -- it is a joke what goes on in many public high school classrooms. So the APs are a way of ensuring that the kid who took US History actually read a history text, and they are also a way of weeding out the high-end kids from the slackers.</p>
<p>I really think that the private colleges would prefer that their applicants NOT have too many college-level courses, because (a) they would prefer that entering Freshmen be Freshmen (not coming in with Soph. standing), and (b) the top colleges still believe that their courses are better quality than high school AP. So yes they will give credit, but the last thing they want is for their introductory courses to be empty because all their students have tested out of them. </p>
<p>So your observation is 100% correct - but I think you've missed the point. AP is there precisely to keep the smart kids on track in high school and out of the community colleges.</p>
<p>I think most top tier schools make it difficult to transfer "college" credits taken in HS.</p>
<p>Here, for example, is UChicago's transfer policy:</p>
<p>College Courses Taken during High School. Students may be eligible for college courses taken while they were in high school by petition to the Dean of Students in Winter Quarter. Credit is evaluated on an individual basis. To be considered for transfer credit, course work may not have been counted toward high school graduation requirements. Credit for science, foreign language, and calculus courses is awarded only by satisfactory performance on the appropriate placement or accreditation examinations taken at the time of matriculation. Transfer credit may not be used to meet general education requirements in humanities, social sciences, or civilization studies unless a student formally enters the College as a "transfer student."</p>
<p>Compare to the more "flexible" AP credit (which do count toward HS graduation):</p>
<p>Students who request college credit for Advanced Placement (AP) courses taken in high school (i.e., before a student matriculates in the College) are asked to submit an official report of their scores on the AP tests given by the College Entrance Examination Board. In most cases, credit is granted for a score of 4 or 5. The decision to grant credit is reported at the end of the first year in residence and units of credit awarded appear on the student's official academic record.</p>
<p>While AP scores alone are sometimes used to establish placement or to confer credit, satisfactory performance on the College's own placement tests may supplement AP scores and lead to additional credit.</p>
<p>For further information on AP credit and how it relates to the Chicago degree program, a student should consult his or her College adviser. NOTE: Credit for no more than six electives may be gained by examination.</p>
<p>The AP Credit Chart shows how AP credit may be applied to the forty-two credits required for graduation.</p>
<p>One way to get around this would be to take the college course, then sit for the associated AP exam, since credit is awarded on the basis of exam score rather than course taken. It would also demonstrate similar skills to others taking AP courses.</p>
<p>I see that you've stopped pretending that you have not heard about Harvard. Allow me to know more about the relationship between Harvard and Harvard Extension School, since I am 15 minutes from them and have been part of that community since the 1970s.<br>
Harvard Extension School is not Harvard College, but many if not most of the profs are either Harvard faculty or faculty of well-known nearby universities. Many Harvard profs in fact make additional income by teaching courses that they teach to Harvard College undergrads during the daytime.
My S took 5 courses, 4 with Harvard faculty and 1 with a Tufts prof. This is not to say that community colleges cannot have great profs. It's just that Stanford, Chicago, and, yes, Reed have a sense of the quality of courses at Harvard and Harvard Extension School, but not of Podunk Community College. By the way, my description of some (not all) students at community college in need of support comes from the dean of humanities at a local, well-respected community college.
You can argue all you want, but you cannot use your D's experience to argue that, a priori, all colleges will look kindly on community college courses. In fact, guess what? my S cannot use his Harvard Extension courses for credit at Harvard! But he can use his AP credits to get Advanced Standing. Convinced?</p>
<p>My S can't use his UC Berkeley Extension credit at UChicago either, even though the course was listed as a UCB course, taught by a UCB professor, and was not used for HS credit. They are very strict about courses NPH (not provided here). He did get credit for his AP exams.</p>
<p>"my S cannot use his Harvard Extension courses for credit at Harvard! But he can use his AP credits to get Advanced Standing."</p>
<p>This is exactly the reason to take APs and not college classes. My kids also took some classes at a well-respected "top ten" university, and did not get credit for those at their respective colleges (Stanford and Swarthmore), but they did get lots of credits for APs. All colleges have very straightforward policies regarding AP credit, with list of exams and grades needed. Situation is very murky with credit for college classes (and for good reason, as quality varies widely, whereas AP tests are all the same). College classes are also much more expensive, especially if taken at private uni.</p>