College Degree vs Connections

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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<p>I have been reading these posts for 2 years and thought I pretty much had a good handle on what direction my son (a junior) should take. After a 10 minute conversation last night, I am totally confused! I have researched (and met the heads of several) of the so called "major" MT programs. I have dissected the difference between conservatory and liberal arts. I had several industry people tell me that every kid needs the degree so avoid NY schools that will tempt him to take a job and leave school. If he could get in, I thought Carnegie and Michigan would be fabulous opportunities- so I have dreamed of them.</p>

<p>Last night at a school show I was fortunate(?) to sit next to a fairly famous music/video/tv producer type who is involved in our school in various ways, including having children who are there and some who have graduated (and very successful kids!). My son has had several major roles as well as concert solos he has seen. He starts to ask me what his plans are for college. As I start to talk about my observations, he shakes his head... no, no, no. He tells me that my son needs to go to a school on either coast because that is where he will make connections. He says that he needs to start connecting and working as a 19 year old, not a 23 year old- and graduating is not the goal! He thinks my son is ready to do it. He totally dismissed my notion that he needs the next four years to hone his skills and become a true professional. He told me I was wrong!! He told me to put him in USC (we are on the west coast) and he will be surrounded by great minds and limitless opportunities. But there is no MT major and the Acting BA is a big un-auditioned program I say. He says - SO! </p>

<p>I guess it comes down to goals- college degree? college experience? My son looks to me to advise him- but it is his decision. I have a great amount of influence and now I am wavering. I must admit, recently I have thought the same things he is saying but I still think a major MT has great connections and great training. I asked him to discuss all this with my son and he said he will. I'm not used to being confused!</p>

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<p>theatremomma, when reading your post, I see two extremes as if those were the only options. They aren’t. My kid’s path didn’t fit either scenario you are describing.</p>

<p>You presented these two viewpoints or paths:</p>

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<p>My opinion as well as my own kid’s path (she is now out of a BFA program for 2.5 years since graduating):</p>

<p>First, you do not need a degree to be successful in the MT theater world. This is true. However, BFA programs are one great way to prepare and train for such a career, not to mention to gain a college education that can serve one well in life in the long run. But I do NOT agree that by going to college in NYC or LA that it means the kid will be tempted to get a job and leave school! My kid went to NYU/Tisch and NEVER was tempted to get a job and leave school. She made a conscious decision to not audition for any work that would require leaving college as she wanted the college education and the BFA training. She was NOT distracted in any way, shape, or form. Most of her classmates got the degree. Only a few left for work and some of them even returned to finish the degree. The majority, like her, got the degree and did not leave. If your child values and wishes to stay in college, he simply doesn’t have to audition for work that would take him out of school.</p>

<p>Then, the other person was telling you that your kid needs to be in LA or NYC for school and that graduating isn’t the goal. First, for my kid, graduating was an intermediary goal. She wanted the education and the training. I do not think a kid is gonna be washed up at 22 in starting a professional career. I’ll admit my kid graduated college at age 20, however, but I don’t think her choices on this issue would have been any different had she graduated college at 22. As far as location for college for MT or Acting training, I’m a proponent to go to the best fit program and a really good program and that the location of the program is not that essential in the long run. That is how my kid approached college admissions. In fact, she only applied to one school in NYC, none in LA or none in Chicago. That said, I have to acknowledge that now that she did attend college in NYC, there were many benefits to that (though I still don’t think this is essential). But through her four years at Tisch, she not only got acclimated to NYC, but she was involved in some things outside of school and met many that way but met tons of faculty and peers in her field at Tisch (it is a big school) and the faculty were working professionals in NYC. Through this Tisch network of faculty and peers in all facets of the theater world, her network grew and grew beyond the university and began prior to graduating. Since graduating, she really was not starting from scratch as her NYC network was established and growing by leaps and bounds (and still has). She has gotten work through this network that keeps growing. She has gotten others work as well. This is on top of the fact that being in NYC during college involved seeing lots of theater and connecting to various arts venues and jobs in the city. So, there were some benefits from being in school in NYC, but she did NOT get involved in auditioning for work that would take her OUT of college. </p>

<p>Thus, I am trying to express to you that the choices are not quite as extreme as the two you have presented. Your kid can attend a BFA program and decide to not audition for work that takes him out of college, and can also opt to attend a college in a major theater city for other networking opportunities (or could do a BFA elsewhere too!). Getting his education and training under his belt and starting his professional career at 22 is normal. Also, he can work professionally in summers. Or if he is in NYC or LA, there are some jobs in the field he can do while in school…my D did a bit of that while in college but not jobs that would require leaving college. Or your son could opt to attend auditions that takes him out of school temporarily and return to college afterward to finish (though my kid didn’t even audition as she did not want to be tempted, even though a few friends did that and returned to finish). So, consider this path I am describing. It is not quite the either/or that you were discussing in your post.</p>

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<p>Thanks Soozievt. As always, a very well thought out response. I have come to respect your opinions. I think NYU should be back on our audition list! USC has always been there because my husband went there. I just never felt it was the right program. With some of the others on the list, I really couldn’t imagine my son taking time to go to that college football game if he could be rehearsing or seeing a show. I think this Christmas break we need to really sit down and figure this out.</p>

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<p>I just realized your subject heading is “College Degree vs. Connections” and so I’ll just say your son can have BOTH!</p>

<p>Not sure if he has had the opportunity to talk to current MT college students or recent grads but this may also be helpful to gain more insight into these issues.</p>

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<p>Yes, we have been talking to current students. We have several friends at MT programs but, for many, their current school was WAY down on there “ideal” list. So, of course, you have the possibility of not getting in to deal with. We also know 2 from his school who are at Tisch. The cost of NYU and living in NY has me a little freaked. Both students there have very little financial aid but can afford it. I have read your posts about that and realize some do get more aid. I think it has also been confusing because he has loved the people from every program he has met. I guess that is why these people are the “face” of their programs. They go out and meet kids and kids love them! And then they tell them how happy you will be with them! We do not have a luxury of being able to visit schools before applying. We will visit schools after he is accepted.</p>

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<p>If you talk to recent grads from the past few years at various programs, your son can get a handle on what they are doing. I’m not saying this so much in terms of helping to select a particular school but more to understand the life of BFA grads within the context of this discussion about even getting the degree or the location of their degree and so on. </p>

<p>(yes, NYU is very expensive and I’ll be paying for it for years to come…though my kid did get significant financial aid there…in fact her best offer from 7 BFA programs in terms of money…but honestly, it was such a great fit for her and she not only had a good experience and learned a lot, she has benefitted from the network she began there and so I think it was worth every penny that we’ll be paying over the years…though realize not everyone wants to take out loans and so on)</p>

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<p>Soozievt. Are you from the northeast? Was this weather/lifestyle/city life a challenge for your daughter. Obviously, she has embraced it but was it a difficult adjustment? We live in the land of sunshine and automobiles. I am seeing substantial homesickeness from everyone who has left the state. My son’s school is doing a NY trip this year and he has never been. I think that will be a HUGE experience for him.</p>

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<p>Theatremomma, yes, we live in Vermont in the mountains. My daughter didn’t have the weather change that your son will have from sunny southern CA! HOWEVER, she had a MAJOR change in environment because she grew up on a dirt road in a rural area in a town of 1700 people (her freshmen dorm at NYU had almost as many!) that doesn’t even have a traffic light. But my D had visited NYC many times growing up and longed to live there. It is a HUGE contrast to where she grew up in terms of lifestyle and just about everything. She did not have difficulty adjusting as she was just dying to go there! But everyone is different. In fact, she moved to NYU/NYC when she was just 16 1/2 and hasn’t left! (she recently turned 23) You mention living in the land of automobiles. Here, a car is essential as we can’t walk to anything and there is no public transportation (and in NYC she is on the subways daily and walks a great deal). But we do have the change of seasons, unlike you. We have more severe winter weather typically than NYC. As a parent, I’m glad that my kids went away to colleges in environments unlike where they grew up so that they could experience different places to get an idea of their preferences for later in life. Neither of my kids applied to colleges here in VT. In terms of weather changes, actually my older daughter is now in grad school in CA and this will be her first year without winter, though she will be going skiing quite a bit and getting her fix that way. She sure doesn’t seem to be minding the warmer weather out there even though she grew up in VT and went to college and a previous grad school in New England too. </p>

<p>In any case, I think when choosing a BFA program, the location is a secondary consideration as there are a finite number of BFA in MT programs in the country, whereas my kid who went to college more for liberal arts, could pick from lots of colleges and take location into account to narrow the list. But when choosing specialized programs, I think location is a secondary consideration, even though it counts. For example, my older D is in a very specialized graduate program and there are very few in the country for it. When she chose her undergrad and first grad school, she preferred the East Coast only but with this highly specialized degree, she had to go where it is offered and that meant going to CA and she is very happy there so far, even though it is very different than her prior living experiences. </p>

<p>In any case, not everyone likes NYC, but my kid has always wanted to live there and has loved it in her 6+ years so far! I can’t imagine her ever leaving and she never has since she started college.</p>

<p>PS, I was just in southern CA with both my daughters and sure loved the very warm weather even though I grew up with and still enjoy the change of seasons.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the insight/therapy session. Last night I was questioning my entire decision making process. I feel like I can step back and take a calmer look. I think the decision will be easier when we actually get an acceptance and visit and that’s a year away. You also get caught up in thinking too much about the “it” schools. They are all so different they can’t all be the right one. I have also seen many kids be very happy wherever they go, even if it was not a top choice. I think all of this has luckily made me make some additions to the list and maybe delete some. Thanks for taking the time. Valuable stuff!</p>

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<p>You know, there is SURELY more than one school where your kid can be happy! It is best to not get too tied up with or love one or two schools. Favorites are only natural but when it is this selective, it really helps to look at the big picture and find many schools that fit enough of what you want. While my kids loved their respective colleges and I do think they landed at really good fits for them, I am sure they would have been happy had they gone some place else too.</p>

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<p>theatremomma, another question (which I don’t think was raised in the posts above but I skimmed so I may have missed it) is what are your child’s professional goals? The professional world of music/video/tv is radically different from the world of straight stage acting, which is radically different from the world of musical theatre in many ways. Some performers cross over 2 or all 3 of these successfully, but not as many as you might think. If you talked to 10 professionals of the same caliber as your friend from the stage world, the majority would likely advocate the best EDUCATION, b/c that is what makes the smartest performers in PRINCIPAL stage work - recommending a BA at Harvard, for example, over most if not all conservatory training, perhaps supplemented by an MFA in acting. Ensemble and even principal work in musicals requires a somewhat different skill set from principal acting work in dramas. I many colleagues I have who have left Broadway musical contracts to return to school to earn their MFA’s in acting b/c they wanted to be better at and taken seriously for major stage roles. They have been wonderfully successful afterwards - and they are ALL graduates of “major” BFA MT programs who felt that they were lacking essential skills for serious straight stage work. But I have other colleagues who are alumni of the same programs who are happily working in Broadway roles and ensembles and consider musical theatre their home and their goal. It’s actually easier to cross from MT into film and TV than it is to cross into straight stage work (at least at the Broadway level), because of this difference in skill set/training. I don’t know if this helps or confuses things, but I wanted to point out that your friend’s experience DOES come from a world where networking and connections has much different impact than it usually does in the stage world. There are 2 other significant factors: does your son need the process time to grow (I know your friend thinks he does not); and how does he want to LIVE in these next formative years? I’m sure you’ve considered the latter, but his growth as a human is even more important than his growth as a budding professional - most seasoned theatre educators who also work in the professional world would agree with that whole-heartedly!</p>

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<p>I agree. His experience is limited to his world. He just made me rethink the whole NYU/USC thing. He was so “pro” those schools because of the broader circle of influence they have outside of your choice of major. I really had just looked at the major itself for each school and what graduates were doing. I hadn’t really looked at the opportunities that might arise around the environment. I have not changed my opinion that college is a really formative time and needs to be a fun learning experience. I think kids have their whole life to look for a job and don’t need to be doing it at 19 if they don’t have to. I think my son needs to really set his goals at this point. He has toyed with idea of getting an agent in LA (which he did at 12) but it always came back to him not wanting to miss school or a show audition. I think his love is MT and the rest can come after. Most kids don’t have to make these decisions so early- it’s hard! And I don’t think anyone who stops studying at 18 can hope to be a really successful adult actor. I’m right- he’s wrong. But I am adding NYU to the list.</p>

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<p>My kid (and me too) felt as you are expressing above. She had her whole adult life to work. College was an experience in which she grew up, was living independently (but still being supported), became educated in a wider sense beyond just her major, and was trained at a high level in her artistic skill set and much more ready to take on professional level work. She would never have given up the college opportunity. And there were summers every year during college in which she worked in her field too. </p>

<p>Also, even if a kid were artistically ready to compete at age 18, it is hard to get cast when college grads are 22 and can play 18. At 23 right now, my kid could still play a teen role and likely has better odds of getting it than a true teenager. </p>

<p>I don’t think that by going to college she missed out on four years of work. To the contrary, she gained sooooooo much and also her resume is more developed from the experience as well. </p>

<p>And college is much more than the education and training. For example, my kid was in an a capella group which was a huge experience for her during college. And she learned a great deal through the many experiences outside the classroom that have since led to getting related types of work. (example, she wrote her first musical in college that has led to some significant work in that one area alone) </p>

<p>Again, the networking began in college and was significant after graduation and still is. She is still quite connected to people through Tisch. A lot of opportunities came out of her college experience. And she’ll even tell you that she is far more trained now than when she entered college, even though she had been doing MT her entire life. She considers her time prior to college as “before training” even though she was training before college. College is sort of a transition time from childhood to adulthood. After college graduation, my kid has had to support herself but she is better positioned to do that now that she went to college and had that experience.</p>

<p>I can’t say what your son wants but I know my kid very much wanted the college experience as well as the education and artistic training. Some of her NYU peers graduated college in 3.5 years and she would not consider that as she wanted the entire four year experience (though she did HS in 3 yrs). </p>

<p>But she really got her footing in her career while in college in a way that I don’t think would have happened before college. And besides the artistic end and besides the personal growth aspect of college, there are no guarantees in the job world in the arts and so having a college degree will serve one well in life in general, even if it is not necessary for work as a performer.</p>

<p>Lastly, even if I thought my kid was talented prior to college, she is way more now with the college training than she was prior to that. The college MT programs really do help even quite talented kids get better. And believe me, many of my D’s college classmates who entered as freshmen were very talented already and some had professional experience already too. </p>

<p>In any case, I don’t think my kid would be where she is today in NYC doing what she is doing in the same way she is now without having gone to her BFA program. One thing has led to another. I can’t imagine where she’d be now with having skipped that major step. As I type this, she is performing on stage tonight in NYC with a bunch of Broadway actors/singers, as well as TV actors and recording artists (she’s the only unknown in this performance) and when I think of how this came about, I have to trace back step by step how a network of experiences led to other ones that led to being asked to be in this show tonight and if I really trace it back about ten steps, it leads back to Tisch. Tisch has no direct connection to the show she is in tonight but a series of things that led from one thing to another, could be traced back that far.</p>

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<p>He’s right; graduating is not the goal. The goal is grow as an artist, to work and learn from like-minded people in your field! :slight_smile: No matter what degree or training you get, all you are promised is a piece of paper saying you graduated. You get what you put into it!</p>

<p>Figure out what is best for you (or in this case, your son): what program suits his personality, his work ethic, his ambitions? Where is he comfortable and where will he be challenged? BA or BFA? College or Conservatory? Whatever works for you! </p>

<p>(And, no matter what school you are at, you’re bound to make connections, via visiting artists, alumnis, work…)</p>

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<p>The connections associated with a school are important and the school’s efforts to connect current students with working professionals is definitely worth looking at. S graduated from Carnegie Mellon which has very strong alumni presence in both NYC and L.A. (as well as the “third coast” Chicago). CMU does not encourage people to leave without the degree when tempted by audition success but, if they do, they are welcome to return–but will start with the class year appropriate to the amount of work they completed when they took the role. By the senior year, they try to be as flexible as they can in supporting students with great professional opportunties. As a parent, I wanted our son to have a college experience and earn a degree. If that isn’t important to your family and/or child, you should factor that into the evaluation. In our case, CMU was and is a great fit for his priorities.
On another front, I can at least say that the advice to look hard at USC is not bad. There is a competitive, audition-based BFA in acting through the school of theatre. There is not an MT option but many talented singers have gone through the BFA program and are competitive for roles in musicals. There are good contacts to be made through USC’s network.<br>
There are lots of ways to solve this equation—just no guarantees!</p>

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<p>Kedstuff- would you mind if I sent you a PM with some CM questions? I feel the way you do- college degree is critical. Carnegie Mellon is at the top of my list and my son loved Barbara MacKenzie-wood, but the low acceptance rate requires we make serious looks elsewhere. We are very tied to USC. My husband went there and the family bleeds cardinal and gold ( 4th straight water polo nat champs!) We go to see the shows.The musicals are good but you can tell there are always several leads that are not vocally well trained. The MT minor has vocal training- but not much. The acting BFA has a low acceptance rate and the other programs are non-audition. We plan to visit the program and ask these questions but I just don’t see how it can compete with some of these other MY majors.</p>

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<p>theatremomma, I just had a long (probably too long!) post disappear but I’ll try to recreate at least some of it. So frustrating! Anyway, I think there’s probably some truth to what your friend told you, but it’s just SOME truth and not the whole truth of the situation. There can be connections made at probably all schools but there’s no question that some schools ‘do it better’ than others. It isn’t surprising that the opportunities for exposure to industry professionals is going to be better in NYC and L.A. than it is elsewhere. That isn’t to say that it won’t happen elsewhere, just not to the same extent. </p>

<p>I’ve read through the years here on CC posts where parents and students talk about wonderful guest artists/master classes at various schools, and I agree that these are a terrific experience for students. Not only are they terrific for the possible connections but also for the experience/learning/exposure to these professionals. The difference between the availability of these experiences is that at some schools, these events may happen a few times during the course of the school year. My daughter’s experience in NYC was that it was not unusual to be a weekly occurrence. The other part of that equation is that many industry professionals come to see the college productions in NYC, and likely in L.A. This isn’t to say that it won’t happen in other cities but it won’t be to the same extent.</p>

<p>Connections are just one piece of the puzzle, though, but an important piece. Not every kid will take advantage of the opportunity to make connections, and so not everyone will reap the same kind of benefit from them, but it can be an important part of a young actor’s career so it’s wise to keep it in mind. There are two schools that many of the people I know of in the business feel do a good job at this even though they are not on either coast, and they are CMU and Northwestern. </p>

<p>Susan is right that making connections and getting a degree are not mutually exclusive. In my opinion, a degree is something which every young actor should have. An education is never a waste and the training is essential for most to have a sustained career as an actor. I would not recommend that any young actor forego a college education.</p>

<p>Being able to have a good, sustained career on the stage without the education and training provided during the college years is rare. Heck, a good and sustained career on the stage <em>period</em> is rare, even with a degree and excellent training. Of the hundreds of young actors I know, after having family and friends in this crazy business for decades, I can think of only a few who have been able to achieve this without getting a college education.</p>

<p>One is 26 and has appeared in four Broadway plays, has received a Tony nomination for one performance and won a Drama Desk award for another. She has ~50 film and TV credits in her bio and continues to be in demand in all three areas. She began as a child actor and is truly exceptional.</p>

<p>The other is 31 and currently in his fourth Broadway production. He began at age 19 in an Equity tour and has worked steadily every since. He’s also a musician, with CDs released, and continues to play gigs in NYC on the nights that his show is dark. Interestingly, his wife who also has four Broadway credits and a Tony win, is now a regular on a popular TV show. She attended CCM. </p>

<p>So, there really is no method to this madness! :)</p>

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<p>You may want to look up an article in a recent Daily Trojan( the student paper). A girl who recently graduated from USC landed a big part in the new “Bring it On the Musical”. It was an interesting story of how she’d go to school,and audition. This is in spite of USC not having a musical theater degree. She’s about to go on the national tour.
The opportunities there are endless. And kids who already have agents are able to go to school and work.One of the cast members of the new Hunger Games movie is a theater student. One of the twins from Desperate Housewives is a theater students. Lilly Collins is a communications major. There are constant visits from industry professionals from in front of and behind the camera to campus. Plus, you can even stalk the red carpet for the SAG awards from USC grounds.
The music school is top notch, no reason an acting student could not continue voice lessons.
Yes,There are 500 kids in the school of theater. But, as we heard a student say at a parent orientation:" You can be a big fish in a small pond, or learn to swim with the sharks". If you can get cast in a show there, what a feather in your cap.
There is always a school of theater musical, students put on several musicals a year, and there are many competative accapella groups. Plus, your kid gets football games, sororities, beaches, and trips to Disneyland. It’s a pretty cool deal.</p>

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<p>Thanks Lucymom. A lot to think about.</p>

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<p>and… we have season football tickets and Disneyland Annual Passes. We’re all set!</p>