In addition to 2015 NCAA finalist list, you’ll also see some of the bone head moves coaches make, as well as their lack of strategic insight/planning…
as far as recruiting goes, I don’t see any mention of the “imports” that are recruited because they score well enough on the TOEFL, and keep the talent pipeline open for a number of former eastern bloc coaches…I those 7th, 9th and 14th best fencers still get more consideration than some our top 8 and high point list fencers.
Update on DS and admissions…wait listed at Caltech. People are sending condolences but DS is thrilled to have made the waitlist. We were expecting to hear from Stevens and Brandeis but they’re releasing later than 2014.
at the NCAA 2015 Championships in Columbus, while talking with one of the parents they relied their story…
this is an Ivy School, both parents are alums, the fencing attended an East Coast boarding school and was a good A/B fencer that did well at NAC events but never a top eight or better. Well when they spoke to the coach about their chances of being recruited, the coach basically said who is she? Again, this girl was a good fencer, and at her upper crust boarding school they didn’t offer fencing, so she was still three year out of lessons also…well that coach said she could try to make his team as a walk-on. Which she did, in fact she walked on some much so that she became their NUMBER 1 in her weapon…but again, this girl was a competitor and pretty good fencer.
Seeking insight into the likelihood of joining fencing team as a walk-on at Penn State or Ohio State (B-rated mens foilist with experience at NACs, etc). Input on the fencing club at UMASS Amherst would be appreciated as well.
OK this is just wrong. Accepted Student’s “day” at Haverford, Stevens and Brandeis are all happening on the weekend of 4/19!
I’m sorry to hear that. All I can suggest is to go to the perceived first choice and let the process confirm/cement the decision. For what it’s worth, I recently ran into a Haverford fencer who graduated a few years ago, and she reported nothing but good things about the school and the fencing program.
Sherpa - I’m kind of kidding. DS loves Haverford and has spent a great deal of time there visiting (3 visits, I believe). I don’t know that Brandies and Stevens (who have both offered merit scholarships) can win him over - especially since he can’t be wooed by them both on 4/19 
Now he’s talking about the Caltech Wait list. OY.
There is a lot of expertise here on CC with regard to college fencing recruiting.
Our son has recently completed his college fencing recruitment odyssey and the process is very fresh in our minds. While we did not discover CC until after he committed to a college program, I will say that our experience was almost identical to Sherpa’s and that his understanding of the different programs and the nuances of the recruiting process is outstanding. Sherpa knows what he is talking about and gives excellent advice.
Given some of the recent posts on this thread, I thought I would offer my thoughts/perspectives:
It is important to be aware that the road from Y14 to college fencing is a long one. With the onset of adolescence and the impending transition to high school, it can be a challenging period for a 14 year old. It is important that fencing stays fun and enjoyable. Emphasizing its possible college admissions benefits at this age may add more pressure than motivation to a young person.
While great fencing results are important, for the academically elite schools (Ivys/Stanford/Duke), it is equally important to have excellent grades/test scores. Most of the coaches at these schools are not willing to invest time in recruiting young fencers (or talking to their parents) unless there is real evidence that the fencer will be academically viable from an admissions standpoint. At Y14 there just aren’t any real academic data points that will be relevant when the recruiting process actually begins.
Looking back at the process, the best advice we received was the following:
If you can achieve #1 AND #2, you will be in a strong position to be recruited by an academically elite college fencing program.
The rationale is as follows: Of the top 32 fencers (in each weapon/for each gender) on the Junior National Points List, about half of these fencers will already be in college, generally at top fencing programs. Of those who are not already in college, about half will not be academically viable for the academically elite universities. The top fencers who do not have the best grades will end up at ND, PSU, OSU, StJ, etc. (this is not a criticism or judgment, just what has historically happened).
This will leave the approximately 8 fencers (per weapon/per gender) in a very good position to be recruited at the academically elite schools. In any given year, each school’s specific needs in each weapon will vary, but the fencers in this pool will likely have multiple/enviable choices. Fortunately, the aggregate needs of college fencing programs in any given year will go beyond the fencers available in this pool so most serious high school fencers who want to continue fencing in college will probably be able to do so somewhere.
It is worth noting that my comments are from the parent of a fencer who did not have any meaningful Y14 results. Our son was an okay Y14 fencer, who also played soccer seriously. After disappointing national fencing results at the fall of his sophomore year (splitting his time between fencing and varsity soccer), he dedicated himself to fencing in January of his sophomore year (changing coaches/joining a more serious club). He began to get top 32 finishes in both Cadet and Junior NACs with a few podium results in the two Summer Nationals leading up to his senior year. By the end of last year’s Summer Nationals he was comfortably in the top 32 in the Junior National Points List.
While my son had introduced himself via email to the majority of the college coaches during his junior year, very few coaches wrote him back (even fewer responded to emails from his parents). The few that did, replied to his question about fencing internationally in his junior year (all recommended against going if it would harm his grades). As his fencing results improved, he would send updates on his progress to the coaches and most of his correspondences did not receive responses.
He met many of the college coaches for the first time the day following his last competition at last year’s Summer Nationals (which was the first day the NCAA permits direct contact between coaches and rising seniors). It was only at these meetings (late June) that we had the complete set of academic information that the coaches wanted to see (junior year grades/transcripts, AP scores, SAT/SATII scores, etc). All of the coaches acknowledged receiving his emails, but were most interested in his one-page resume he brought to the meeting highlighting his best fencing results and detailing his academic records. The bulk of the conversations focused on his academic viability and the pre-read process.
The combination of his fencing results for the most recent two years and his academic accomplishments throughout high school resulted in a heavy recruitment during campus visits (unofficial) in July (6 schools), positive early reads by admissions officers in August, and offers of Likely Letters in September. At the end of this process, our son received a Likely Letter from his first choice Ivy in October and ended up only applying only to that school.
I guess this is a long way of saying that it matters more where you are at the end, rather than where you are at the beginning…good luck to all and try to pace yourself.
Excellent post. Thank you so much for sharing your experience.
Super, great comment…you did leave out the wildcard…imports that are JWC participants that score well enough on the TOEFL to gain special admissions to a number university/colleges and take roster spots from those on the JPL. The irony is many are good to marginal fencers, but they offer a pipeline to other imports and some coaches try to maintain those relationship versus cultivating or working to develop US talent… I know that takes this in another direction, but it’s part of the mix in US Collegiate Fencing.
Superdomestique,
Did you get a sense from those coaches on what grades are ‘best’ (e.x. 3.9 GPA)? Or are they only consider those with 4+ GPA?
My son did NOT have a 4.0 (unweighted), but he did go to a small, highly-competitive private school and took the most challenging academic program available.
Anecdotally, a coach from an academic elite college program told us our son was in the top 2 academically of the seniors in our weapon this program was recruiting. This program ended up taking 3 fencers in our weapon early (our son ended up not applying) so I do not think a 4.0 is required at all the top programs.
With the Ivys, the real academic issue is not just grades, but your fencer’s Academic Index (AI). Google this term and you will get several formulas on how to calculate it. The AI includes several other factors such as test scores and class rank and other academic measures.
The Ivy League has an agreement with its member schools that it can only accept students within a certain range of academic index scores. The highest AI is 240 and anecdotally it seems difficult to get accepted at an Ivy with and AI less than 175. While this range varies from school to school, most Ivys need their athletes to have an average AI in the 205-210 range.
This means that if they take some real geniuses, they can go lower in other areas. Sometimes average athlete with an outstanding AI may get recruited so a school/team/program can also recruit an outstanding athlete with a lower AI. A school’s average AI can also go across sports, so a team of high AI fencers can help the football team recruit lower AI athletes (or vice versa…haha).
Calculating your AI once your junior year grades and test scores are available should really give you an idea of where you realistically stand in the recruiting process and hopefully will help in scheduling those post-SN/pre-senior year meetings with the coaches.
@schoolhouse, as you seem very knowledgeable, I have no reason to doubt you about the imports. In what weapon/gender is the import phenomenon most common?
Perhaps it varies by the year, or the weapon, but we did not experience any closed doors due to foreign substitution. This may be more of an issue for schools that run larger squads. At some of the schools we were considering seriously, our son was the only recruit in his weapon and the squad consisted of 3 or 4 fencers per weapon, all of whom were expected to fence in intercollegiate meets. At some of the other schools, our son would not have been the only recruit, and he would have joined a squad of 5 to 9 fencers in our weapon where the teammates would compete with each other in practices to see who made the 3 to 4 fencer “competition squad” that travelled to meets. I suspect it is these larger programs that take “imported” recruits who are not top ranked.
In my initial post I neglected to mention how important it is to have your club coach’s support and belief in your fencer’s abilities. We were extremely fortunate that our son’s coaches were very well-known/respected and had excellent relationships with all the college coaches. Our son was very open and honest with his club coaches about his fencing and college aspirations, which allowed them to speak with confidence to any college coaches whom they would regularly see at NAC and WC events.
As our son did not have as long a fencing resume as others on the JPL, it is possible that some of the college coaches called our club coaches to ask about his work ethic and teammate potential.
@superdomestique - excellent post! I agree wholeheartedly with all of your observations. Congratulations to your son (and of course to you too; I expect you helped him a bit along the way ).
Regarding the point made by @schoolhouse point about foreign fencers, I think this is more an issue at the less academically elite schools, such as Penn State, Ohio State, and St. Johns. Like superdomestique, we never encountered this, either in recruiting or once they were on their teams.
Hello everyone! I just joined CC, and wanted to post here for advice (and my chances) for NCAA fencing recruitment.
So starting with my non fencing stuff just to give a basic idea of my application; I am a 16 year old Asian-American and a current Junior at one of the more prestigious private schools in my area(I skipped a grade), and my weighted average as calculated by my school (which doesn’t do 4.0) is around a 94 cumulative and a 96 junior year. I am taking all of the Honors and AP classes possible, and one of my strong points is my accelerated math; I finished BC Calculus in 9th grade with a 5 on the AP, and have since then taken Elementary Number Theory, Multivariable Calculus at my state university , and Linear Algebra. My Sat scores are 770 reading, 750 Math, and 700 writing, and my 2 SAT IIs in Math level II and Physics I recieved 800 and 780 respectively.
My school doesn't do class ranking, but I should be at least in the top 20% in terms of grades alone. For extracurriculars, I studied violin for 10 years, am captain of the Robotics team, and have done competitive debate, among other things. Also, for my community service I started a foundation for and take trips every summer for education in rural China, and was part of a documentary on Chinese education by the Central Chinese television station.
As for fencing , I just aged out of Y14ME this year (was fencing Y14 as a sophomore since I skipped a grade), and am fencing Junior and Cadet along with Senior. I was unable to do a lot of National tournaments the first half of this fencing season due to shin splints, and am not on the points ranking list for Junior or Cadet, but I recently got 3rd at the Div II NAC, 3rd at an A4 event that is one of the biggest regional events in my area, and have won a couple A2/A1 events locally. My current rating is an A2015, but I am not on any points lists due to not being able to go to the majority of NACs and ROCs this year. I think that being a year younger than everyone in my grade along with my injury) is a disadvantage with regards do points and stuff , and I’m not sure if that will make it extremely hard for me to get on a good team. I really want to do fencing in college, and my top colleges as of now are Stanford, MIT, and Princeton in that order, as I am passionate about Math/Physics, especially theoretical (quantum) and would like to pursue that during my time at college.
If you guys could give me some tips and advice, it would be greatly appreciated!
I know being on the “fencing team” is good enough for some, but being a serious competitor makes for a very different situation. Look at the NCAA Championship/Regional Qualifers and Conference championships (except) Ivies to see the impact of imports, the high level competitors don’t get caught up in this, because they are known and proven commodities, but after that it’s a valid concern for the rest of the hoards.
Sherpa’s response is interesting because most of the 3,4,5,6 fencers at the listed schools could be “easy” ones or two’s at all but six programs. I’ll venture to say that a few fencers at the “club level” are capable of being ones and twos at all but maybe nine programs, one fencing in particular turned down Duke and it’s lack of resources to stay at a Midwestern Public Ivy and is a two National Club Champion and two time running up and will graduate “debt free” thanks to academic mix that a reduced stress fencing schedule provided in that environment versus the aforemention programs that compete to WIN or place national champions year in and year out. I don’t think this forum addresses the individual(s) that are one’s and two’s at those top programs----but the questions surrounding the Ivies may, but even then the top level competitors are (multiple) high NAC finishers, and their previous coaches have developed or can possibly pipeline talent downstream to programs.
@Dante2016 - First thing, your academics are probably strong enough for any school. I agree that you being a year young for your grade might pose a problem for you; hopefully you’ll find a coach who will understand and factor that in to the mix.
Your injury and lack of current points will hurt you, but your DII bronze and your A15 will help you.
The coaches would welcome you as a walk on anywhere you can get in without coach’s support,. In terms of being recruited, I think Princeton is highly unlikely, Stanford is possible depending on their options, and MIT is a crapshoot. The MIT coach will probably be willing to put in a word for you, but his pull is very limited.
Yale is possible; the coach is hard to predict, but stranger things have happened. One observation: to him, an “A” rating carries a lot of weight.
Duke is a possibility too.
I’d start reaching out to coaches soon, first by emailing a resume of your academic and fencing stats, and then follow up with phone calls.
Good luck.
@Dante2016, you have an interesting situation. Your grades/scores and ECs are good (class rank could be better, but I am assuming you go to a highly-competitive private school) and it is possible you may be a competitive applicant without a fencing recruitment hook.
To be honest, without any national points, you may have to be.
While it may not be fair, the national points system provides college coaches with some level of independent verification of how competitive your fencing skills are relative to many of the fencers you may ultimately be fencing against in college.
Without this evaluative information, you will have to be creative.
I would suggest working with your HS/Club coach to campaign for you with the coaches at the college programs you are considering. If your current coach has good relationships, your potential could be explained in lieu of the more well-worn path of national points recognition.
As you are currently a junior, you should be aware it is also rather late in the game. Hopefully you have begun the process of contacting the coaches of the programs you are interested in. By now you should have sent a one page resume with your best fencing results and academic data and followed up with a phone call. While it is unlikely that you will make contact, it is important to get a file started.
Will you be participating at SN in June? As SN is the next/last national tournament before the formal recruiting process begins in earnest, you need to be there if you are serious about your interest in fencing in college. A podium result there would be helpful.
It is worth noting that for the academically elite fencing programs, almost all the recruiting decisions are made the days and weeks following SN. In general, by the end of SN all the coaches know who they want and make their cases to fencers and parents in those “speed dating” meetings in the food court seating area outside the venue the day after the fencer’s last event.
At these meetings, rising seniors will be able to provide their complete set of academic info (full junior year grades/test scores) and coaches will try to predict which fencers will be able to pass their admissions committee’s pre-read requirements. When recruitable fencers leave SN, they will know which college programs are (and are not) interested in them and will then wait to hear back on the results of the admissions committee pre-read.
No fencer can be successfully recruited without passing the admissions committee pre-read.
The pre-read process generally takes a few weeks, so most coaches are in a position to make formal Likely Letter offers by late July/early August.
For the academically elite schools, most of the recruitment takes place during the EA/ED season using Likely Letters issued in October to lock in these prospects. Strong fencers who are on the cusp academically, or excellent students who are less decorated fencers may still be recruited, but may have to wait for the RD season with the expectation of improved test scores, grades and/or fencing results to come in.
In my opinion, without any national point standings, it is unlikely you will be recruited for the EA/ED season.
With your strong academics, but limited fencing results, you may want to consider taking a year off to build up your national points resume. As you are young for your grade, this is not a totally outrageous suggestion. Perhaps you could move to a club that has a connection with the schools that you are interested (Cardinal/Zeta/TigerZ). Obviously, you will need to talk to the coaches at both the schools and the clubs before attempting this sort of strategy. You may want to ask this question in your email correspondences with the college coaches to get this conversation started.
Here are my comments on the schools you have mentioned:
Stanford. While they have a history of recruiting the best of the best (great academics/top national rankings in fencing), they tend to run a larger roster and recently have recruited some B rated fencers (not in the 50 on the JPL) who are interesting/great people and fantastic students. While these fencers may never see NCAA action; they are on the team and are wonderful teammates. Stanford’s head coach is a very nice (but unorganized) person who has influence on the admissions process. She is not the easiest person to reach, however as her high school aged son is beginning to participate in NACs, she is at some tournaments that a Stanford coach may not normally attend.
MIT. The coach has the reputation of not having much influence on admissions, however I know of at least once instance where a club coach helped a student connect with the MIT program. If your coach knows the coach at MIT, he/she should call on your behalf.
Princeton. The head coach has a great deal of influence on admissions but will likely require top grades, scores and NAC/WC results for anyone he recruits. However, he has said that potential is very important to him, so I would imagine he would be open to hearing about you if he knows and respects your coach.
I am sorry I can’t be more encouraging, but fencing recruiting at the academically elite programs is what it is. I am not sure it is any easier at the other top fencing programs. In any case, I think you need to enlist your current coach to make some calls and/or consider taking a year off to get those points. In the alternative, for the schools you are interested in, you can try to get in on your own and try to walk on.
FWIW, I think you should also consider Yale. Their recruiting process is not very transparent or consistent, but, academics are much more important to them than national point results.
Also, with your interest in math/physics, you may also want to consider Cal Tech/Stevens/JHU too.
Sherpa, have I missed anything?
Sherpa must have posted his response while I was still writing…it appears that great minds think alike!