College GPA (and other worries of a PITA mother)

Parents Forum
1

<p>We have a son that can be very bright and very lazy when it comes to school. Throughout HS, his grades would sag, we would hear from school, we would be after him, the grades would go up and the cycle would repeat.</p>

<p>He now goes to a pretty competitive (top 50 USNews, if that means anything) school. Came home first semester with a 2.75. Said he realized he didn't work as hard as he ought to. So I thought, ok we'll see an improvement second semester. And he came home with a B, two C's and a D. I think he loves college life and doesn't necessarily want to apply the discipline to keep good grades. An if it doesn't impact him, then he's not going to strive for good grades for the sake of good grades. If he can go to a movie with friends or study, he'll pick the movie. And there are always other kids to do things with at school.</p>

<p>The question I have is how this impacts him. A friend said that many internships are based on having at least a 3.0. I know that when you graduate, GPA is looked at, but how important is that? Are there other things that are based on GPA.</p>

<p>My personal issue is that here he is, getting this $40K plus education a year and he's not taking full advantage of it. I don't know if it's better to just give up my issue or keep after him about it, or even tell him that if he doesn't get a x.x GPA, we'll discontinue our support of it. </p>

<p>On another note, he has a very specific career goal. In order to do this, it seems to ME that he needs to get involved in the department in school and look for a research opportunity. The school advertises that 80 percent of students have done research by the time they graduate. </p>

<p>So part of me wants to just sit back and let it go and hope he 'gets it' at some point, or perhaps he's doing just fine and I don't need to say anything. But the other part wonders if I should be involved in some manner (prodding / pleading / setting incentives or disincentives). I know, he's an adult now (just try to find out health info about your child at school!), but...</p>

2

<p>I wouldn't object to the specific GPA issue as much as the coasting and lack of discipline. It's fine to explore one's limitations in college, make meaningful social connections, etc., but 40K is a lot of money per year. I want my kids to work as hard in college as their dad and I have had to work to send them there. So I guess I'm saying that I think you do have the right to expect certain behavior (i.e., making academics a priority), though not necessarily a certain GPA. I think it's entirely reasonable to ask him if he's capable of pulling a 3.0, what he needs to change to make that happen, and what you can do encourage that. </p>

<p>Then I'd give him another semester to see some improvement (lots of kids have a rocky first year), after which I'd consider changing the amount of financial support I was providing. I see a big difference between parents who nag for 4.0s in the name of admission to prestigious grad schools, and those who require a kid to take an expensive private education seriously.</p>

3

<p>The role of GPA in post-college hiring varies by field, I believe. My S is in a tough major (Engineering) in a tough, tough school. He works HARD to keep his GPA in the 3.0-3.6 range because he believes that it will affect his job prospects. It clearly does in his field, as one can find looking at info from the school's Career Services office (ie, students need to bring their transcripts to on-campus interviews) or at the hiring practices of many major firms. There have been other discussions of this on this forum, where posters in Fortune 500 co.s have reported that their firms have 3.0 hiring cutoffs (or higher), have different salary ranges for 3.0-3.3, 3.3-3.5, 3.5+. </p>

<p>If your S has a specific career in mind, he <em>might</em> get motivated by doing a little more research on the hiring practices for that field.</p>

<p>I sympathize with your situation. I don't happen to have that exact challenge as my S does work hard. But my best friend has your exact situation and has fretted to me and brainstormed with me about it. Her son is engaged in college life (being on his own, weekend ski trips, parties...) but not in college academic life. Your son's GPA would look quite attractive to this family. So they are struggling with the issue you raise. </p>

<p>A couple of questions they are considering: 1) does their son have more $$ at his disposal than is in his best interest? This is not a wealthy family, but they are wondering if they have erred in their generosity in helping with his discretionary expeneses, He does work summers for his spending money, but they have been paying for gas, etc. etc. 2) is the car he has at school a good incentive/disincentive bargaining chit? He did pay in part for the car and pays his own insurance. But they are thinking of setting GPA requirements as to whether he can take the car back to school next term.</p>

<p>The key is how to get him on board with the "right thinking" process. My suggestion is that they/you sit down with the kid and talk about what is a reasonable level of expectation for his performance. Jointly set a GPA minimum standard. In their case, since their son is now short a number of credits (dropped classes a semester or two, so light load; failed at least one class; didn't go to the final in a class this past term (! ... the last straw, I think)), they were planning to require him to take one summer school course in the evenings and earn an agreed-upon grade. If he doesn't, no car on campus this year - will cramp his style and perhaps remove some of the distractions (who knows?). If he does earn the car for next term, he will have to maintain the agreed-upon GPA to keep it for the next term and so on.</p>

<p>He's a good kid. I suspect your son is too. He's just "not engaged." Another option, of course, is taking some time off on the idea that he will be more ready in another year or so. Scary to some families.</p>

<p>Lots of rambling; I apologize. But maybe there's something useful in there. And it always seems to help to hear of others in the same boat.</p>

4

<p>I second frazzled. Not fair for me and dad to have to work hard but not him. Your case may be different- to some people 40K a year is chump change. I'd offer him a semester/year off and/or correspondence courses and/or CC to figure himself out if he doesn't come out with better grades here shortly. It won't kill him.</p>

<p>What it suggests is that he isn't aware of the costs to you and your family and/or he isn't aware of how it is important to himself (his career, future, development, etc). Either way, those are the problems I would attack.</p>

5

<p>You'll know your S way better than we, but I think that, for some kids, if the first salvo in the discussion is the cost and the implied criticism that the kid is wasting your hard-earned money (however true) it's likely to lead to resentment and maybe not much progress. I definitely think that you should not let this go, but maybe come at it in a way that let's him acknowledge that he didn't do as well as he could, gets him to analyze the reasons and come up with some sort of action plan. At some point, I bet there will be a chance to mention the financial aspect in a way that makes it a side point, but not the focus.</p>

6

<p>As others have said, I believe internships, jobs, and graduate school are all tied to GPA in many industries. I remember reading a thread here on CC of engineering kids with a 2.95 that found themselves cut out of internship opportunities and made sure than my S, also an engineering student, was aware of this issue. I agree with jmmom that he needs to be told that there could be consequences to a sub 3.0 GPA as he may not realize this. </p>

<p>However, even with this understanding he may not have the level of self-discipline at this point in his life to study rather than play when faced directly with the two options. I often feel this way about eating versus dieting. If you feel that is the case, it might be best for him to take a year off to mature or transfer to a state school, not as a punishment but as a way of accepting him for where he is in his life right now in terms of maturity. Putting it to him that way (sympathetically) might make him motivated to study just to prove that he is all grown up after all.</p>

7

<p>another thing to consider is grad school since some (many?) of the top grad schools require a minimum of a 3.0 for acceptance.</p>

8

<p>The key questions are: is he bothered by the C's and D's? Is he happy about the B?</p>

<p>If the answer is yet to either of the above--keep up the constructive suggestions about how to turn himself into an 'A' student.</p>

<p>Also, lay out a spreadsheet showing him how difficult it is to pull a 2.5 up to 3.3 GPA. Many boys have no idea that they cannot turn that around in one year.</p>

<p>However, it is possible to get great internships and jobs without a 3.0. The high GPA is most helpful when it comes to getting into prestigious grad schools.</p>

9

<p>It's not the GPA that worries me as much as the possibility that your son may not be adequately prepared for further study in some subjects.</p>

<p>If those Cs and Ds are in general education courses in subjects he will never study again, they don't matter much, except if he's trying for a career path (such as medicine or law) where GPA is crucial. My own son, for example, did badly in a chemistry course his first year in college. But since his major is computer science, there were no lasting problems from the fact that he didn't really learn much chemistry. He was just taking the course to fulfill a general education requirement.</p>

<p>On the other hand, if the poor grades are in courses that are prerequisites for your son's major or subjects crucial to understanding the content of advanced courses in his major, he may be in trouble. I wonder whether a student who got a C in French 3 is really ready for French 4. I wonder whether a student who got a C or D in Calculus 1 is really ready to take Calculus 2 or to take courses in subjects such as economics or physics where a solid knowledge of calculus is necessary. If my son the computer science major had done poorly in introductory computer science or math courses his freshman year, I think he would have had difficulty later on. That's the sort of problem your son may be facing.</p>

10

<p>It's important to keep in mind that in general, a course with a D is not transferable to any other college -- and whenever a kid shows uneven performance, transfer down the line is distinct possibility. (Face it -- the kid described in the OP is not going to win any prizes for "consistency").</p>

<p>That being said, I think that parents of college-age kids need to butt out and let their offspring make their own mistakes, except for the financing part -- and the financing rules should be stated in neutral but consequence-laden terms. I deem it the mommy-scholarship -- in my daughter's case, the terms are simply that she needs to make adequate progress toward her degree each semester and maintain a 2.0 GPA, which are exactly the terms required for her to continue to qualify for financial aid. If there was a merit package in the mix, then I might be more specific -- as I would not be willing to pick up the difference in the case of a lost scholarship. </p>

<p>The reason I go with that approach is that it really keeps the responsibility with the kid -- I'm just a funding source with the same type of rules as any other funding source. As a parent of a college-aid kid, I'm happy to provide an opportunity, but my job is not to come to the rescue if the kid messes up.</p>

<p>A kid whose GPA is not adequate for grad school in the area of his choice is simply a kid whose future has something else in store -- not every student who enrolls with the idea of being a future doctor or physicist ends up with that career. </p>

<p>In any case... from the benefit of hindsight, my bright-but-lazy son has done well over time even thought he wasn't quite ready for the responsibility of college at 18. The best thing for him was to quit college at 20 and enter the work force -- and it turned out that he had better opportunities at the "third tier" public college where he has returned to complete his education, paying his own way, than he would have had in the original college. The path to the degree has been longer, but I think that he is going to be a far better position in terms of his future career plans when he graduates next spring than he would have been if he had graduated from his first college on schedule 2 years ago. I'm glad I backed off and let him figure things out for himself. </p>

<p>Ironically he was disappointed when I didn't ask about his grades last semester -- he thought I didn't care. I explained that I did care and that it made me very proud to learn that he had all A's -- but that as my money was no longer involved, I just didn't think it was my business unless he chose to tell me.</p>

11

<p>
[quote]
think that parents of college-age kids need to butt out

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How can one butt-out when paying xx dollars per year. </p>

<p>
[quote]
make their offspring make their own mistakes

[/quote]
</p>

<p>sure, but, IMO, on their own dime....</p>

<p>Why payout your retirement to let kids make their own mistakes? </p>

<p>I guess my real question is how can a kid make "their own mistakes" without spending their own money?</p>

12

<p>I have a friend with a "very bright but very lazy" son who was obviously not doing much work at his top 50 school. I don't know if I would have had the nerve to do this but my friend dragged her son back home to live for a semester when it was obvious that his social life had taken over and academics were an afterthought. The boy took some courses at a local college for a semester. His mother and father were all over him and demanded that he show them that he was committed to making an effort. After a semester of that he was ready to go back to his original college and put a little more effort into his academics....I don't think a 4.0 gpa was expected but just something that showed that he actually opened his books and did some work. </p>

<p>I might not have handled the situation in quite the same way but I really respected my friend for not just making an empty threat. It could not have been much fun for the semester that he was at home.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
How can one butt-out when paying xx dollars per year.

[/quote]
Well, speaking for myself, if my daughter doesn't get the minimal GPA I demand, I won't be paying any more. </p>

<p>The concern I was addressing was the OP's focus on GPA required for grad school and internships. I figure that really is something for the student to figure out -- after all, many kids do not ever go to grad school, and many others only get graduate degrees after many years in the work force after college.</p>

14

<p>Thank you for all your responses. This serves as a 'sanity check' for me and information to share with him. A couple points:</p>

<ul>
<li>He is receiving about $6K - $8K of student loans per year. These are the low-interest loans that the government subsidized. We told him at the beginning that we would pay these back if he maintained a 3.0 average. So there is a financial incentive to do well. Does he understand the implications of this, I don't know. I do know that he's been reading up a lot on cars and understands their costs (he has an old family car currently and lovingly eyes new cars). I don't know if that registers vs the student loans he could end up with.</li>
</ul>

<p>When I mention the cost of the college, he winces. I think he realizes that it costs a lot and wishes it didn't and wishes it didn't impact us so much. But so far, that's where it ends. We don't give him any spending money for school and it's interesting to see how he handles that. When there is something he wants to buy or do, he shows up at his work-study job to earn that much $$, then he scales back. I don't know what they must think where he works. </p>

<p>I have talked to him about the fact that it's NOT just about grades, but about learning the information and being able to apply it. I have considered talking to him about re-taking the 'D' class (it's Calc 2) at a local community college this summer to get the info. I don't know how this works (is Calc 2 at a community college the same as Calc 2 at his school), but I have think the 'time' issue (giving up summer time to study) coupled with the fact that I really think he doesn't like calculus would be a motivator to not have to do this again. If he knows he's going to have to study it one way or another, maybe he'll just do it to start with?</p>

<p>I will ask him to investigate the internships and job opportunities that are typically offered. </p>

<p>I guess as a parents we haven't done a good job of making him responsible for his success. I really hoped we could back off and he would find his way.</p>

15

<p>I think Calc 2 has to be pretty much the same thing everywhere. Community college courses need to be transferable to the state university system, don't they? And a lot of kids take one or both halves of calculus as AP courses in high school, so the college courses have to be pretty similar to the AP courses.</p>

<p>If your son is going into a major where calculus is actually used, taking it over would be prudent, in my opinion.</p>

16

<p>
[quote]
I guess as a parents we haven't done a good job of making him responsible for his success. I really hoped we could back off and he would find his way.

[/quote]
How old is he? 19? </p>

<p>You can back off and he will find his own way... but it won't happen overnight. </p>

<p>Also, it may be that part of the journey will involve re-evaluating his plans. Calc is pretty important to math & science majors -- so if he is having difficulty with the math, maybe he will realize that he is in the wrong major. He won't be the first young person to be knocked off a science track by calc or chem. </p>

<p>It sounds to me like you are doing things about right -- it isn't a parenting problem, it's a growing-up problem. If you aren't giving him spending money and he doesn't arrange a summer job or internship, then he'll bear the consequences.</p>

17

<p>CollegeMom - The comments posted above reflect my point of view also. But I have to ask: What is your son getting from his Top 50 LAC experience? His response may temper the inclination to say "If you're going to be 'not engaged' you can do that as well at State U, and for a lot less money." Forty K for C's and D's isn't a good use of money IMHO.</p>

<p>PS, Your S sounds like a wonderful kid. But I think it wise to get to the bottom of this.</p>

18

<p>Actually, I think it kind of depends on the school and the major -- if a college is known for tough grading standards, a kid could be working very hard and actually getting a lot for those C's -- and a D in calculus could really represent a kid who is struggling with math or in over his head. Not something you want to be paying $40K for, but not something that gets "fixed" by going to the state U either. As a parent I think I would feel very differently about poor grades in calculus as opposed to, say, a history class. (My son was the opposite -- he was getting A's in the tough courses, Cs & Ds in courses that should have been easy -- in his case it really was a lack of engagement in some of the classes).</p>

<p>Since Collegemom has not specified the school, it's hard for us to know whether her son is at one of those grade-inflated places where anything below a B is a sign of trouble, or whether he really is at a college where a C really does take a lot of effort. </p>

<p>But I agree: asking the son what he is getting from his college experience and how he feels about it might be an important first step. I think the question needs to be framed in a supportive, understanding -- not accusatory -- way.</p>

19

<p>Our son came home from first semester freshman year talking about all his wonderful new friends, but he had only taken three classes (withdrew from one) and had two B+ 's and a C- ("writing seminar is a joke, Mom.") We read the riot act to him over the holidays, I think we all shed tears, and this was a first since he has always been pretty well behaved. </p>

<p>We told him we were going to monitor his grades second semester, and that his midterm grades would determine whether or not he could pledge a fraternity. Well, during second semester, we just decided to let go, that they are HIS grades. I told him that college grades "last" forever (I am 52 and just entered an MFA program and guess what? I had to send for a college transcript) and that low grades will close doors. He does get that message from others at school; most kids are pretty eager for the A's and B's.</p>

<p>I don't think he has turned it around completely, but he did work a lot harder in this semester's writing seminar and I expect a high B or perhaps a low A. He also put effort into the other four classes and they probably be in the B range but I wouldn't be surprised to see a C in calculus. I do think his grades will get better as he goes along through college, and I am glad we turned it over to him, so there wasn't any element of rebellion or resentment in his study/non-study decisions.</p>

<p>I guess what I'm advising is to try turning it over to him. You can also set minimums below which you will decrease your financial support. If you are clear on this and follow through, that seems an appropriate consequence. Good luck. These boys lack maturity, or perhaps their attitude has to do with the certainty of marching off to work every day once they graduate . . . but I think they will be fine in the long run.</p>

20

<p>So I called the local colleges, and it's going to cost about $1,000 for him to re-take Calc locally. Does anyone know whether a local grade can be applied to your regular college transcript? I imagine we'll need to contact the school. Even if it doesn't replace the grade, it's my impression he should learn the material.</p>