<p>My son loves to take hard classes, but is not particularly concerned about the grades he gets. He tried taking quantum physics as a first semester freshman, but he dropped it because he had a medical issue, and after missing a couple of classes, he was just too far behind. The second semester he took a 400 level logic class, without taking the 2 prereqs. for it. He got a B in the class, but he thought he might get a C. He also took 3 400 level math classes as a freshman. His first semester, he actually got an A in a hard math class, but a B in an easier math class. Tis semester he took 2 hard math classes, but I don't know those grades yet.
His attitude is "why should I take 3 classes when I can learn it in 1?" My concern is that graduate programs and first jobs often look at GPA, and don't look so much, of at all, at strength of curriculum. When he was in HS, he had about a 3.4 unweighted GPA, but about a 4.4 weighted, because almost every class he took was GT or AP, but he got more Bs than As.
I appreciate that he loves learning for learning's sake, but at some point he will need to join the real world.
Any advice? He will most likely want to go to grad school, if that matters, and I do not plan to fund it.</p>
<p>What is his major? What degree will he want to get in grad school? I appreciate his spirit which will probably pay off well in the work world. I think he will have to explain his enthusiasm for learning and challenges so future grad schools or employers will understand his GPA. Everything has tradeoffs which he might not understand or maybe just doesn’t care about – I hope he won’t regret his approach.</p>
<p>Yes GPA can matter. My son was on the job hunt after college, and the highest paying and best jobs seemed to all ask for gpa and SAT scores. Also if he wants to go for an MBA or top law school, grades will matter.</p>
<p>He is currently a math major. He will likely do a masters or phd program.</p>
<p>Grad schools definitely care about GPA. Your son may find himself with no acceptances if his GPA isn’t top. </p>
<p>When we went thru the grad school app process with our older son, we were surprised to learn that even his “safeties” (ha ha) had only a 10% acceptance rate. These safeties were just run-of-the-mill state schools that have easy undergrad acceptance rates. Luckily, son had a perfect GPA and top GRE scores, so he was accepted to all of his grad schools. However, the process was a wake-up call and not one that students should take for granted. </p>
<p>Why would a grad school accept a student with a GPA in the low 3’s, when it has 10X as many apps from students with high GPAs?</p>
<p>I have a friend with a son like yours. He was an excellent math kid- a whiz, in fact, but he didn’t always get the grades one might think he would, but he always took really hard math courses and some hard electives, like Chinese (he was white) and linguistics, and the maximum number of allowed credits. He graduated from an ivy, but had no luck getting into grad school the first round, probably because of his grades. He eventually was admitted to a funded PhD program, but dropped out after a few years because he wasn’t progressing. Now he’s working as a computer programmer (self taught) and making big bucks. He’s happy.</p>
<pre><code>Some kids don’t fit the mold, but they do find their way. Your son is in college, and an adult, and as much as you are probably right, that grades do matter, there really isn’t too much you can do without creating a rift in your relationship once you state the risks of his approach to his courses. (And I’m sure you have.) It sounds like he needs to be engaged with the material to do well, which is why he slacked off in the easier course.
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<p>Do you really think you can change this about him now? If he changes, it will be because he finds some reason to take the long view- something that motivates him. If he has seen the grad school acceptance rates and still isn’t motivated to be more grade conscious, your nagging probably won’t help either.</p>
<p>Question the quality of freshman advising (and the school itslf) that would allow students to skip prereqs without the instructor’s signature. His low GPA is as much the school’s fault as your s’s. I mean, why make policy if you’re not going to follow it?</p>
<p>That being said, some people are just going to do what they’re going to do. You can’t worry about his plans for grad school. It’s sleepless nights over an issue where you have little to no control.</p>
<p>It’s his problem, no matter what, now. It’s his life. There’s nothing you can do unless you have kids who are much different than my kids.</p>
<p>Good luck. Someone who digs in and takes on the challenge and is smart enough to rise to the occasion this way is not someone I would spend too much time worrying about. He will be just fine in the real world.</p>
<p>agree ordinarylives… i was thinking same thing…why would an advisor let him take classes that he is missing pre-req for!!</p>
<p>The top graduate programs look at recommendations and undergraduate research experience. They have some interest in GPA, but graduate admissions is run by the faculty usually, so they do look at the transcripts. The level of understanding that your son is developing will be apparent from his application.</p>
<p>In a lot of cases, mathematically heavy courses draw more on “mathematical maturity” rather than anything else.</p>
<p>It really depends whether your son genuinely understands the course material in the courses where he got B’s. This is not possible for anyone to tell from the outside, but you son probably knows. If he is in doubt about it, I would advise him to contact the professor, and go over what he understood from the class, and what he did not understand. Many faculty will be wiling to do this.</p>
<p>It depends also on your son’s personality–is he likely to be over-confident? One might guess that the answer to this is “yes,” based on his course choice, but that’s not actually what I mean. In terms of appreciating what he understood and what he didn’t understand in the courses he has taken, is he likely to blow off the material he didn’t get as “unimportant,” or does he realize that there are issues he still needs to grapple with?</p>
<p>I would not worry much at this point–he has just finished his freshman year, right? The things that he does in the next two years and in the summers will matter much more, and show whether his strategy was good or not. At the moment, I wouldn’t fault it.</p>
<p>I disagree with some of the other posters. For grad school, LORs are very important. Someone like your son, who takes more difficult courses, may end up with better LORs. And taking hard courses ought to pay off in terms of GRE scores.</p>
<p>If he were aiming for law school or a MBA, I’d give different advice.</p>
<p>Grades do matter, but sometimes side achievements, especially in the Mathematics and Physics majors, can be a great “wow” factor. With all do respect the chances of your son being a universal genius are quite slim, but that doesn’t mean others won’t appreciate his attempts at such rigorous courses. Maybe have him slow down. He could always switch to computer science or engineering. He just needs to do a little soul searching, and find what he is really good at. His analytical abilities in Math can open great doors into newer fields.</p>
<p>“Learn for mistakes, stride with successes”</p>
<p>He sounds like he will be a huge success. People like him are the ones that go far beyond anyone else. Sounds like he’s learning what he needs to. Is he happy like this? Respect that he’s an adult now and let him grow his own way.</p>
<p>From my experience this kind of person will do well in math in academia. The other math people will appreciate him.</p>
<p>Well, I assume grades matter if you want to go to a really good grad school. If you would settle for one a rung or two down they still matter somewhat, because most places you need at least a 3.0 to even be considered. But it doesn’t sound like that’s a problem.</p>
<p>As far as the courses he’s taking, I did a little snooping (sorry) and found out he’s going to RPI and basically already has one year of math beyond calculus from high school So the 4000 level math classes are likely the classes he’s supposed to be taking. As long as he’s fulfilling his requirements I don’t know what else he would take.</p>
<p>As far as the QM - well it looks like RPI has several levels of QM, so I guess it depends on which level he’s taking. I assume he’s not starting with the hardest QM without even finishing freshman physics (either in college or through AP). Because I assume it is the truly rare genius that doesn’t at least have to take the intro class at some point, even if that point is the fourth grade. I mean, if he’s really advanced in math he can fake it through I suppose, but at some point he needs to know what equation to write, not just how to solve it.</p>
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<p>As noted above, PhD programs look at courses, grades, undergraduate research, and recommendations. Professional schools (e.g. MD, JD) are generally said to look at grades without considering the rigor of courses chosen.</p>
<p>If he’s aiming for a PhD math program, LORs and research experience matter far more than GPA and if the former two are impressive enough, could actually override a lowish GPA provided the math GPA is high or the Profs who taught those math courses are all impressed with him despite giving low grades. </p>
<p>In fact, PhD programs would much rather admit someone with impressive LORs and research experience which are perceived as being better predictors of PhD/academic research potential than someone with a high GPA but less impressive LORs/research experience. </p>
<p>I recalled a story told by a Prof that there are many students he’s had with high impressive GPAs, but who don’t have the demonstrated serious interest, commitment, genuine love of learning beyond fulfilling course requirements to a high graded standard, and/or the research talent necessary to be a viable academic grad student/academic scholar down the road. Recalled he concluded the story by saying such students mostly ended up working a few years before attending business/law school for the MBA/JD.</p>
<p>My D often finds that the grade she gets is not that correlated with the grade she thinks she deserves. She’s gotten A’s she didn’t think she deserved and gotten B’s for classes she thought she deserved an A. It kind of averages out to the GPA she thinks she’s earned, and worrying about it beyond doing one’s best can drive you nuts. Some professors curve, some do not. Avoiding hard classes defeats the purpose of going to college. </p>
<p>There is only so much control one has. I agree though that the LORs are more important.</p>
<p>I think he could get into a decent PhD program with a 3.0. Definitely they look individually at each application and the letters and research experience are what matters the most, as some cognoscenti have mentioned. Applications to PhD programs are reviewed by faculty in the department to which the student is applying. Sounds like a strong candidate to me.</p>
<p>I think it’s far too early to tell, but a math major with really advanced courses may end up looking better than someone who only took easy ones. </p>
<p>I also agree with ClassicRockerDad, that sometimes the grades one receives in courses seem pretty inexplicable. I took a history course once where copies of the A papers were put on file in the library. After I had read them, I realized I was never gettting an A because I didn’t want to write like that. Luckily in subsequent years I took courses where the professors liked the way I wrote. (Cogent, concise, no jargon.)</p>
<p>There’s nothing wrong with taking difficult classes, but the point is everything at the right time. Taking them too early and getting a lower grade doesn’t demonstrate good thinking/logic skills. It demonstrates short-sighted impulsivity. </p>
<p>I don’t agree that you can get into a good (funded) PhD program with a 3.0, unless you’ve got some spectacular hook/research/work experience, etc. </p>
<p>As for the point that it’s “his life”, yes that’s true. However, these young folks need good advice because they often make missteps that make the “next step” very difficult. We should speak up (just as college advisors should speak up) when a young person is making a risky decision. </p>
<p>There are some aspects of the grad/med school app process that can seem counter-intuitive, so speaking up can help. </p>
<p>As I mentioned above, I went thru the grad school app process with my older son a couple of years ago. This last year, I went thru the med school app process with my younger son. Both could have seriously hurt their chances if they had made some serious missteps such as taking classes out-of-order resulting in lower grades. </p>
<p>While it’s not impossible to recover from these missteps, it can be costly and time-consuming to fix these problems. Just look at the posts from that other pre-med website and see the anquish from rejected students whose resumes “look good” except for some GPA issues here or there.</p>