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<p>Then I’d say you are not getting your money’s worth.</p>
<p>P.S. That of course depends on what you’re paying, but this is not even remotely true in my kids case. Working his butt off, being stretched academically and (mostly) loving it.</p>
<p>P.P.S. Cross posted. If you meant easier to manage in terms of structure, then that’s different than if you meant easier in terms of academic rigor and challenge.</p>
<p>I know this is a parents forum, but I thought I’d offer my opinion and tell my story.
I’m a college freshman that went to a pretty competitive public high school in North Carolina (I think its top 5 in the state). I took mostly honors and APs and maintained pretty solid grades (As and Bs, one C in Calculus AB- not a math person). I had a lot of homework for my classes and was involved in ECs, although I didn’t take a particularly active role because I didn’t think I had time. I wanted an academically competitive college and that is why I chose my dream school, Wake Forest (“Work” Forest-GO DEACS! :))</p>
<p>I can’t say that my college is any easier or harder than my high school was, it is just different and, in my humble opinion, better. I think a huge difference is that I’m actually ENJOYING the classes I am taking, which makes the work load a little more manageable because it can actually be interesting and fun. Granted, I am only taking 14 hours of credit this semester (I wanted to test the waters my first semester of my Freshman year), but even next semester when I am planning on taking 16 credits (including Biology with a lab, Economics, French Literature (in French), Biological Anthropology and British Literature), I don’t think I will have an issue. My enjoyment will motivate me to keep going, even when I have a lot to accomplish.</p>
<p>Besides the freedom to choose, I think another thing that makes college seem maybe a little easier is the simple amount of time you have to play around with. I have so many more free hours to do what I like, including homework or socializing with friends or whatever. I have classes 5 days a week, I work 3 days a week, I write for the newspaper, I attend club meetings, I am pretty heavily involved in Student Union, I watch movies on movie nights, I go to football games, I go to parties with my friends and I still have time to sleep 8 hours a night. The fact that I’m not wasting my time sitting in classes for 7 hours a day while falling asleep and not being allowed to work on things for other classes is a huge help. I also think I was taught (from my school and my parents- they never forced me to do anything and so I became very self-motivated) to manage my time well. This is, again, a huge help. Spacing out what I have to do lets me wrap my head around everything and plan accordingly. </p>
<p>I admit that this does not happen for everyone. My roommate, for example, is far less organized than I am. She was heavily involved in theatre and music since she was small, and therefore everything else has always come after. She is behind in multiple classes and yet, she comes home or goes to the theatre building to talk to friends/hang out or play around on Facebook instead of doing actual work. She will suffer because of it and it will bite her in the butt later on. She did not take as rigorous a course schedule in high school, we’ve talked about this, but her high school was comparable in competitiveness to my own. The reason she struggles is simply because her parents pushed one thing all the time (theatre) and were okay with everything else suffering because of it; they’ve changed their tune a little now that they are paying for her to mess around. </p>
<p>In short, I think it depends on the high school, the college, the person, the parenting and the life skills a person has to determine whether their college classes will seem “easier” or whether their experience will be, in my own wording, “better” than high school.</p>
<p>I’ve heard something similar from the grads of our HS, but often it’s from kids who didn’t work really hard in HS. They took rigorous courses and made mostly As and Bs, but they weren’t burning the midnight oil or anything. I think sometimes it’s a maturity thing and just having the freedom to study what they want when they want makes college a more pleasurable experience, which can translate into “easier.”</p>
<p>ETA: Cross-posted with the college student, who is saying much of what I’m saying.</p>
<p>That was my experience. Having attended one of NYC’s Specialized math/science high schools…attending my LAC(Oberlin) was a great relief even given the fact my HS grades probably placed me in the bottom half of my graduating class and I was never allowed to take a single AP course because of those grades. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, I did well there while routinely taking course overloads, working part-time during the year, made it a point to skip some prereq courses most advisors felt were ill-advised(started at 2-300 levels), participating more meaningfully in some ECs, and more. Even had some time to learn the rudiments of the UNIX/Linux operating systems on my own. </p>
<p>Within the first semester, I was floored at how many classmates who were A/A+ AP experienced students at more mainstream public and even private high schools were struggling or even failing courses I thought were manageable. This continued into my later undergrad years as I was asked by classmates to tutor them in my weaker subjects in high school such as math…a subject in which I was a C/D student in high school. </p>
<p>Granted, campus culture also played a factor as Oberlin and similar colleges tended to be far more collaborative and disapproved of students who were too obsessed with competing against others or focusing mostly on getting A-level grades. That was a breath of fresh air compared with my high school experience. </p>
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<p>My high school classmates tended to do that. A reason why classmates routinely turned down admission to most Ivies…including HYP to go off to MIT, CMU, and Caltech if they were admitted to the latter 3 schools. It was also the key reason why most high school classmates whose high school GPAs consigned them to SUNY/CUNY schools…even honors programs opted to “transfer up” to elite LACs/colleges…including the Ivies. </p>
<p>I’ve also known/knew of several dozen college classmates or colleagues who transferred from Top 20 universities to attend LACs like Swarthmore, Reed, Wellesley, Oberlin*, and Vassar because they actually wanted more academic rigor/challenge. </p>
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<li>In the case of my college classmates…a large part of this was because at the time(90’s)…their former Uni’s East Asian Studies programs didn’t compare to Oberlin’s.</li>
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<p>Such an interesting topic! My three kids all went to a very challenging high school. The oldest chose a mid-ranked college and has a 3.99 GPA as a senior (HS GPA was 3.5). He would say that college is easier. He loves his major. Then child #2 chose to attend a much higher ranked college, where she was originally deferred. She didn’t last long. I don’t know if it was too difficult or she just wasn’t ready for college. Now I’m helping #3 find a college and I’m really confused.</p>
<p>ihs76 –</p>
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<p>My D received a full merit scholarship for 4 years, so I’d say she’s getting her money’s worth. Even if she was not receiving a scholarship, I’d still say it’s worth it.</p>
<p>I think it really depends upon a lot of factors and varies greatly from student to student.</p>
<p>Factors include:</p>
<p>-the rigors of the high school</p>
<p>-whether the student was one who could maintain As with little effort or had to work really hard (often related to the rigors of the hs). At a less rigorous hs, maintaining high grades with little effort means something entirely different than being a student maintaining high grades with little effort at a very rigorous hs. And the reverse is true - having to work hard at a less rigorous high school can often result in being In over one’s head in college.</p>
<p>-the rigors of the college</p>
<p>-their college major</p>
<p>My son attended the most rigorous private school in our state and maintained an A average with little effort. Now at a top honors college he finds it pretty easy, while he has peers in the honors college who graduated #1 in their class who are having to work very, very hard. These are kids who have an avg SAT of 1450 and 4.5 weighted GPAs. Definitely not slouches in the academic area.</p>
<p>I’ve seen kids at the top of their class in my son’s very rigorous hs, crash and burn when they got to an Ivy. Others, lower-ranked in their class and attended the state university are now at top notch medical schools. Every kid, every experience is different.</p>
<p>In an ideal world, you are looking for that sweet spot between being challenged but not to the point of being stressed.</p>
<p>Are there any IB diploma program graduates out there who DON’T think that college is easier than high school?</p>
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<p>I know you like to hate on USNWR rankings, but the example you gave about the OP’s daughter:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/12311172-post12.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/12311172-post12.html</a>
does not really support your statement, since UMBC is not generally considered a top level or highly selective university, USNWR or otherwise.</p>
<p>Perhaps its selectivity is low enough that even the honors courses there are at too low a level, in order to accommodate students who are very poorly prepared for college level work.</p>
<p>[UMBC’s</a> 2010-2011 common data set](<a href=“http://www.umbc.edu/oir/cds.html]UMBC’s”>http://www.umbc.edu/oir/cds.html) indicates that 43.3% of incoming freshmen had high school GPAs under 3.50, including 12.9% in the 2.50 to 2.99 range, and 1.6% in the 2.0 to 2.49 range. Middle 50% ACT range was 24-29, and middle 50% SAT ranges were CR 540-640, M 560-670, W 530-630.</p>
<p>I wasn’t referring to the college attended by the OP’s daughter. I was referring to the anecdote I referenced earlier about my friend’s daughter at Northwestern. I don’t know if that’s USNWR top 20, but if not, I’m sure it’s close.</p>
<p>Marian
My dd and her classmates were IB diploma graduates. Most had AP classes as well. What I have found are the ones that actually got the diploma are doing well at their colleges and are not having any problems. Those that did not get the diploma are doing ok but they didn’t get any scholarships nor are they going to the better ranked schools. There was a direct correlation between the final IB score and the type of college the kids went to. To be honest I didn’t see my dd doing much homework. Nothing crazy like others have posted. The science projects and papers were always last minute because she played three varsity sports and volunteered every Sunday. </p>
<p>It is important to find out how your individual kid is doing in the program. Not just their grades but check to see what they are projected to get for an IB score. I have seen several kids crying because they got a 2 in a HL course and were not able to gain enough points to offset it. I think those that did work but not really hard are the ones that will find college easy. Every kid in the programme that I know that did well and that I have been able to speak with, says college is easier. They used to post the names of the students who got the diploma so I am not as nosy as I might sound.</p>
<p>son’s math/science school… 90% of the teachers were phd or master level…some had taught at universities before…and they taught the students as though they were in college…son had a full day of classes each day…now he has 4-5 classes not meeting everyday and has much more time for the homework load/studying than he actually had in hs. in hs he was also involved in everything, while at college he has streamlined his activites…serving on 2 committees. so he actually has less stress while at college.</p>
<p>I feel like I’ve been put in the position where I have to defend my D’s choice. My D’s high school GPA was 4.65 and she had very high SAT scores. She is probably in the top 5-10% of the students at her college.</p>
<p>Her college has been ranked #1 Up and Coming National University for 3 years in a row.</p>
<p>Also ranked #4 Best Undergraduate Teaching (along with Yale, Dartmouth, Princeton, Brown, Stanford, UC Berkeley, Notre Dame, U of Chicago).</p>
<p>Yes, my D could have attended CMU, where she was also accepted. It is certainly a more prestigious school, but she just didn’t feel it was the right school for her. She is very happy with her decision.</p>
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<p>A relative graduated with an IB diploma from a high school in an impoverished area. He was admitted to an elite school, but struggled from day one. He managed to graduate with a degree in biology, but can’t find a job. His grades were not good enough for him to get into graduate school.</p>
<p>To momofthreegreatgirls:</p>
<p>I meant IB students who successfully completed the diploma program.</p>
<p>At the IB program my daughter attended, this is close to 100% of the class (those who are unlikely to get the diploma quietly transfer out, usually in the pre-IB years (grades 9 or 10). </p>
<p>I had not thought about IB students who attempt to get the diploma and don’t succeed (because I’ve never met one). But you make some very interesting points about them.</p>
<p>My own experience many years ago was that, yes, university courses were generally harder than high school courses. However, choice of courses could make a considerable difference. In university, there were some courses that were well known to be a joke (e.g. the physics course for non-majors, other science courses for non-majors, and a number of social studies courses; there were also many students taking ethnic studies of their own ethnicity), but there were also some very difficult math and physics honors courses (for some of the math courses, even the regular versions had a very difficult reputation). Of course, there were always a few (undergraduate) students who thought that those math courses were easy, so they took graduate level math courses.</p>
<p>I would not be surprised if any big state flagship-level university had such a range of students and courses that one can select anything from a complete joke of a schedule and major to an extremely rigorous schedule that goes far beyond the normal rigor of one’s chosen major.</p>
<p>High school was a public high school, not selective other than by attendance zone (at the time, probably mostly upper middle class, but with some lower middle class and some upper class areas). There were only about six AP courses, but two of them were English Literature and Calculus BC.</p>
<p>Too many variables to argue about here. You don’t have to go to an elite/rigorous HS to get a good education. Innate ability counts- good public HS in a blue collar city with gifted and talented program can yield 5’s, minimum 4’s, on all of many AP exams taken and perfect/near perfect standardized test scores. Student can be in flagship Honors Program and take several grad level math courses at a top 15 or so ranked school for math. Number of college credits per semester, course difficulty, match with ability and interest, overlap in HS material, STUDY HABITS… can make the difference in ease/stress levels first semester.</p>
<p>btw- several PhD’s (math/science fields) we know- at least in mid 30’s- have stated regrets with getting the degree- the job market isn’t always that great, getting/keeping research grants difficult, etc. Son has chosen to wait for grad school, sigh. He’s still young and learning a lot from first job. It will be interesting to see what OP’s D decides in a few years.</p>
<p>Am personally thrilled that DS is finding freshman year “easier” - in part b/c he had accelerated in math in high school and - at his advisor’s recommendation - is taking interesting but not over-the-top math courses this year. In general, his school, which is known to be very academically intense, encourages freshman to limit the number of courses so they can do well in a smaller number and can adjust to the rigors of school without becoming overwhelmed. After 4 years of what seemed like an endless grind, it’s a pleasure to hear him say it’s all manageable and less than what he had to do in hs.</p>
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<p>Every student/family makes a choice that makes the most sense to them. No one need defend their decision made in their particular unique situation.</p>
<p>I think that your choice of title for this thread, written as a statement rather than a question, is eliciting responses from those who disagree with your statement.</p>
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<p>Keep in mind that not all state flagship unis are at the level of UC Berkeley. </p>
<p>That was certainly not the experience of high school classmates or neighborhood friends who ended up at SUNY/CUNY* flagships due to low HS GPA and/or financial reasons back in the mid-late '90s. Either the advanced courses weren’t always offered or there was so much red tape and bureaucratic BS involved that if they could…they felt transferring up to elite private LACs/Unis was the better option. </p>
<p>Moreover, it isn’t just about taking the most advanced courses…but also being surrounded by college classmates with the same intellectual ability, drive, work ethic, and respect for their education**.</p>
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<li>I’m glad CUNY has made great efforts to improve the academic quality of their programs and instituted the Macaulay Honors program for high stats kids. A lot better than what CUNY offered to classmates back in our college days. Incidentally, had a GC who tried to portray SUNY Binghamton as the East Coast equivalent of UC Berkeley to encourage more applications from the highest stats kids. Of course, none of us bought it as we knew it was a decent-good state flagship…but far from the level of schools like Berkeley, UVA, UMich, etc.<br></li>
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<p>** I.e. Fewer students who disparage classmates who are in college for more than solely learning direct vocational skills/“for the degree”. Ironic how from what I’ve experienced from such students while visiting SUNY/CUNY campuses and heard from others…this almost always comes from Business majors…a field that was much more disdained as a joke than “Liberal Arts” by one former financial services employer unless they attended top undergrad B-schools like NYU-Stern, Wharton, Berkeley-Haas, UMich-Ross, UVA-McIntire, etc.</p>