<p>umdclassof80 – you don’t have to defend her choice or your family’s choice. I will be more than happy if my kid, who is applying to 4 schools–a reach, 2 matches, and a super safety–is able to do well without the insane level of stress currently in place in my home. Not everyone is playing the zero-sum game. The cc community is not a representative sample.</p>
<p>My daughter is finding her selective honors program at our State Flagship, more time intense than she expected. She went in knowing that it was a “reading and writing intensive” major. They weren’t joking. I guess she was tipped off when one of her five classes had 17 “supplemental novels” in addition to the text book. Another class had 6 novels and a 1000 page class “anthology”. On top of that she is taking Biology II which has some of the most intense cell dissections that have to be memorized, etc. </p>
<p>She is handling it well, although her stress level is about equal to HS. Because she does not have her 20 per hour week EC and she is not in class 8 hours a day, she has more time, (she is in a sorority and that commands about 2-3 required hours per week and 4-5 “social” non required hours) but she needs every bit to keep on pace. On average she has 1,000-1,500 pages of assigned weekly reading in her five classes combined. She also writes approximately 20-25 pages of papers, free response questions and required blogs per week. I think she is just now beginning to gain stamina to smoothly handle that type of work load. (she also attended a very competitive HS, 17 AP, mostly 5’s with a handful of 4’s). </p>
<p>I agree with the other posters that degree requirements, grade inflation, etc, can make some programs seem “easier” or “harder” for equal footed HS students. My D’s roommate hasn’t even written a paper yet and only has one textbook per class. Same University, very different workload.. I can’t predict if my D will continue being a 4.0 student (I suspect no, but I do think she will qualify for dean’s list) but I know she is being throughly educated and extracting a great deal of knowledge from her professors. Isn’t that what it is all about?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Hmmm, seems that if you took the “hard” courses, you would find those students. If you took the “joke” courses, you would find much less ability, drive, work ethic, etc…</p>
<p>Or are you saying that, in places like New York and other northeastern states, the plethora of good private schools drew enough of the top students away from the state universities that too few of them attended the state universities to make a critical mass of motivated students there?</p>
<p>I am curious to hear from very rigorous HS to top college parents.</p>
<p>Do your kids find college easier than high school?</p>
<p>In answer to 20more’s question, my son didn’t go to a private school; he attended a highly-ranked (to the extent those sorts of magazine rankings mean much of anything, which I doubt) public high school in a small Northern New Jersey suburban town. But there were quite a few excellent teachers, and some very rigorous honors and AP classes, and in my opinion the top 20% or so of the kids in the class (which was only about 100 in total) were comparable academically to the students at any top private school or specialized public school in New York City (I do have some idea of what that means, since I went to one of the best private high schools in the City myself). And he worked extremely hard, especially from 9th grade on.</p>
<p>I had no doubt whatsoever that he was well-prepared for the University of Chicago and would excel academically there. And he has. I don’t think he’d say it was “easier” than high school by any means, since he works every bit as hard overall as he did then, but I think he’d agree that except around exam time or when papers are due, he has much more free time than he did in high school, as well as much more control over his time. As many others have pointed out, not being stuck in school all day (“prison for teenagers,” as he’s referred to it) makes a huge difference if you have enough discipline not to sleep all day or stay up all night or otherwise waste your time, which he does. Plus, despite the core curriculum, he definitely has had more control over what he studies than he did in high school, especially after the first year or two of college.</p>
<p>When he was a first-year student, it was obvious to him that there were many students who weren’t as prepared as he was, in the sense of being used to working extremely hard, to being with other students who were equally talented and equally enthusiastic about academics, and to meeting high expectations. (I felt pretty much the same way when I went to college.) For a lot of kids who were at the top of their class at less rigorous high schools (many of them in less “competitive” areas around the country), no matter how good their test scores may have been, the University of Chicago was a different universe. At least that’s the impression my son had. For him, the workload and expectations were much easier to get used to. As unusually talented in certain subjects as he is and always has been – in the areas he excels in, I don’t believe for a moment there’s anyone better, and although I’m obviously prejudiced, I do think I’m qualified to judge, and I do spend a great deal of time talking with him about his classes (because he enjoys doing so, not because I make him!) – I doubt he would have done as well, at least at first, if he’d been less well-prepared.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>From their experiences, they didn’t feel there was enough of a critical mass of students similar to themselves to override the greater numbers of students who weren’t up to their levels in those areas. The college also assigned them randomly to different sections of intro STEM courses so the top students ended up being diffused in classes where the majority were of the less capable variety and/or those with negative attitudes towards learning beyond what’s directly useful for a job or getting that degree with the least amount of effort possible and disparaging classmates who desired more for their own college experiences.</p>
<p>One common issue was how in the intro for CS majors course…which they weren’t allowed to skip despite already having covered enough material to self-study themselves into the intermediate/advanced courses…they ended up with As/A+ without having to open the text and feeling bored to tears while the vast majority of the class flunked with Fs or eked their way to passing with a C-. After a semester or year of this…they wanted a more challenging academic environment and a campus with a greater critical mass of academically/intellectually engaged students who don’t think it is “uncool” to talk about learning something for its own sake rather than whether it’s directly applicable to a job or helps them get the degree with the least amount of effort. </p>
<p>Granted, the CUNYs have made great efforts to improve on this front within the last few years as shown by their Macaulay Honors program for high stats kids. Unfortunately, such programs didn’t exist in the SUNY/CUNY systems when we were applying to colleges.</p>
<p>Umdclassof80, to answer the original question, no, my d is not finding college easier than high school. She has 17 hours this semester. Some classes are easier, individually, but she’s in a weeder that takes hours of studying every day for that one class. She had a B at midterm, her first since 9th grade, and she’s thrilled. </p>
<p>Over the years (I work in an SSS program), I’ve seen students carefully advised so that the first semester is manageable. I’m also pretty used to seeing a drop in GPA, sometimes substantial, second semester. My own D has weeder, part II, in the spring. We’ll see if she can keep up the pace she’s at now for a whole year.</p>
<p>Also, FWIW, in every school–ranked, unranked, ivy, top 20, no name LAC–there are killer programs and programs that are not so tough. Even kids not in the toughest majors may have to take gen Ed’s or cognates from those departments. At some point, every undergrad can expect to have her metal tested.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Not every school has tough general education requirements. Amherst and Brown have none at all. And, at many schools, there are easier non-majors’ courses in physics and other subjects that can be used toward the general education requirements.</p>
<p>At the end of the day, isn’t it about each individual student meeting his or her * personal* educational and career goals? I find it frustrating that people state their kids objectives as if it were the one true path. Some kids want to be surrounded by peers who are their intellectual equals and being at the top of the class sometimes becomes a secondary objective whether by choice or by necessarily. Other kids * want * to be the big fish in a smaller because it’s important to their personal educational or career goals to do so. Of course, family finances should play big role in these decisions. I really think it’s a matter of different strokes for different folks.</p>
<p>One of son’s friends from his school, a few years ahead of him went to Harvard. His mother recently said that the experience has left her son stressed and burned out. I compare that to my son, who is at our state flagship honors college. He is thriving, doing extremely well, is feeling very confidential about his abilities and is happy. He’s learning but is not stressed. I read threads here about kids studying non-stop and getting 50s in chemistry and all I can think is thank goodness my son is not in that situation. He is where he should be and is doing well. I hope every student feels the same way regardless of the college they are attending.</p>
<p>Hope that the same holds true for when I am accepted.</p>
<p>Marian </p>
<p>You can complete the programme and still not get the diploma. This is a list of the top IB schools in the country. [Top</a> International Baccalaureate Schools | US News Best High Schools](<a href=“http://education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-high-schools/rankings/top-international-baccalaureate-schools?page=1]Top”>http://education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-high-schools/rankings/top-international-baccalaureate-schools?page=1)</p>
<p>I believe the last column is the pass rate for getting the diploma. It doesn’t make sense for individual tests. None of these high schools had 100% pass rate. One even had a 44.8% pass rate. I was shocked at the pass rate since so many drop IB after 10th or even before they take and IB test.</p>
<p>D1 went to a private school that didn’t offer that many APs because they believed their courses were more rigorous than APs. A lot of kids took AP exams without taking the course and got high scores. D1 was an A to A+ student in math and physics while in high schoo.</p>
<p>D1 was very well prepared for college, especially when it came to writing. Writing didn’t come easy for her in high school, but in college she could easily get As for regular English paper. But she did find courses to be more challenging in college, especially the first 2 years. Her school curved most tests, she was happy if got above the mean. </p>
<p>Depending how math is taught and what’s expected of students, it could be manageable or really hard. If students are tested on exactly what’s taught in class and the exam looks similar to the problem sets, then it could be easily studied. It get hard when a professor expects students to take what’s learned in class then push it to the next on the exam. D1 said that in order to get a B in math she would really need to know the concept very well.</p>
<p>D1 compared her Econ courses with her friends at other colleges, she said her courses were more math intensive. Even in art history course, she had to know what was taught in class, and go beyond that. She had 50% of points taken away on one essay when she only used 2 paintings to make her point (comparison). Her answer was correct, but her professor told her that she wasn’t in high school any more, more was expected of her. </p>
<p>D1’s high school prepared her well for college, and her college education prepared well for her job. She is able to understand complicated derivatives modeling and calculations, wherase many of her colleagues are struggling with some of the most basic bond calculations. </p>
<p>I am in the camp of college shouldn’t be easier than high school, even for students who went to the most rigorous high school. The right academic fit should be with students who have similar test scores and GPA, and professors should be teaching at the pace commensurate with the level of competency in class. With better prepared students, professors wouldn’t need to waste time in doing reviewing in the beginning of semester, could also have a higher level of discussion in class. </p>
<p>If my kid were to tell me first year of college is a lot easier than high school, I would wonder if it’s the right academic fit.</p>
<p>My daughter went from a top CT public high school to William and Mary (I would think that qualifies as a “top” college.)</p>
<p>She absolutely felt her freshman year at college was easier than high school. Her sophomore year, not so much. She’s also doing an internship and she’s having trouble with time management. Once the internship is done next week, things should settle down for her.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I agree 100%! I personally know of two recent grads (one from an Ivy and the other from veterinary school) who are so burned out, they can’t even get motivated to look for employment. I don’t want this to happen to my D.</p>
<p>For both my kids college is harder but more interesting. Older son spent hours after school playing and teaching himself about computer programming all through high school. He had a reasonably rigorous schedule, but not a killer schedule senior year - Linear Algebra, AP Chem, AP Latin, another honors science, and English as a senior. He spent a good deal of time as a freelance computer programmer as well as a continuation of his summer job. He graduated from Carnegie Mellon where he jumped right into mid level comp sci and physics courses.</p>
<p>Younger son had a similar senior year schedule - AP Calc BC, AP Physics C, AP Euro, English, two orchestra classes, which didn’t overwork him. He’s at Tufts and his freshman year he took two killer classes, Arabic and a colloquium offered by the Global Leadership Institute about which he was told “This will be your life the year you take it.” The required reading was so extensive the class had reading groups that divvied up the load and summarized it for other students. Though ultimately I think he skimmed everything. He loved the class, but it was every bit as time consuming as promised. Arabic he had no aptitude for and spent hours every day just not flunking it. (He spent this past summer in an Arabic speaking country and is doing somewhat better this year.)</p>
<p>For both they spend more hours on school work, but less on busy work and they enjoy(ed) what they were studying for the most part.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Thank you very much for the information. That’s a very interesting list.</p>
<p>There are some schools with very successful IB programs that do not appear at the top of the list, though. Those are schools where the IB program is a small program within a larger school that does not do IB. </p>
<p>My daughter (and Hunt’s and Counting Down’s kids) attended a school of that type. It ranks quite low on the list because the participation rate was only about 26 percent (which makes sense, since the IB program accounts for 1/4 of the student body, and non-IB students rarely take IB courses). But within that smaller program, the pass rate for the year that they’re talking about was 99 percent.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Speaking of that, if you look at Businessweek’s top undergraduate business schools slide show here:
[Best</a> Undergraduate Business Schools 2011: Notre Dame’s Mendoza Takes No. 1 Spot - BusinessWeek](<a href=“http://images.businessweek.com/slideshows/20110227/best-undergraduate-business-schools-2011/?chan=bschools_special+report+--+best+college+business+programs_special+report+--+best+college+business+programs]Best”>http://images.businessweek.com/slideshows/20110227/best-undergraduate-business-schools-2011/?chan=bschools_special+report+--+best+college+business+programs_special+report+--+best+college+business+programs)
you will see that, for each school’s page, the number of hours spent on class work (presumably out of class, in addition to the probably typical 15 hours per week in class) is not very large at many schools. For example, MIT (#9) students supposedly spend only 9.4 hours per week on class work.</p>
<p>The usual workload calculation is that a 1 credit corresponds to 3 total hours per week of class time and out of class work. So a typical 15 credit schedule should correspond to 45 hours of total time per week. But, assuming 15 hours of class time, the total time per week at these top business schools seem to be more like 25 to 35 hours, based on the numbers in the slide show.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>My employers’ perceptions weren’t necessarily based on the hours spent on class work, but on the applicant’s/employee’s basic skillset…or the lack thereof. </p>
<p>From what I’ve heard from my HR colleagues and supervisor, their skepticism of undergrad B-school majors at places other than the topflight schools came from having hired former undergrad B-school grads from the lower-tiered schools in the past and found their skills in such basics as arithmetic and writing(coherence…not grammar excellence) to be woefully lacking. </p>
<p>They didn’t have the time or the willingness(“Should have been sorted out in K-12”) to provide remediation so they quickly booted them out and made a note to avoid hiring such applicants in the future. </p>
<p>No different than how companies fired employees who found their listed skillsets to be inadequate or completely non-existent in practice as was the case with one supposed “Software developer” who was fired inside of a week after we found he couldn’t even navigate his way in Microsoft Windows…much less program anything…</p>
<p>I’m the OP. Who knows? Next semester, my D may be complaining that her classes are incredibly hard. She does anticipate that her physics class will be more challenging than her math and computer science ones.</p>
<p>S2 is dreading physics too…keeps putting it off 
he has advanced placement but doesnt want to take an advanced level course so may give up his previous credit…but just never liked physics!</p>