College Loan Slavery

Parents Forum
21

<p>30-some years ago, I bought a college guide. I spent hours in my room, poring over amazing schools ... knowing that stats like mine would most likely mean acceptances if I applied ... and also knowing that I could not afford to go to any of those schools. I went to a school I could afford, and I graduated debt-free. Did I wish I could have gone elsewhere? Absolutely. But life is what it is. </p>

<p>When my D was looking at schools, I told her what we could pay. Her search was based on finding a school we could afford. She is lucky, because we are able to pay for her schooling; my parents could not. We do not have a fancy house, new cars/carpeting/flooring/refrigerator/etc. We do not go on vacations. We live within our means. I would LOVE to have so many things I do not have. Again, life is what it is.</p>

<p>I realize that the middle class is getting a raw deal. There is no free money for anyone but the poorest. Those of us in the middle keep losing ground. It's awful. However, college is not an entitlement. Some may feel it should be, but at this time, it is not. Fortunately, community colleges can give even the most financially unprepared a bargain education.</p>

22

<p>kelsmom - I appreciate what you say; at the same time, I stand by my post. The middle class, what we are part of, does have choices. Both the parent and the student. The problem being that the choices have to be made years before college app time. Unfortunately the consequences often come home to roost before we are ready for them. As a result of making the choices early, ours will/have graduate top schools with no debt. For those early in the process, chose wisely or be willing to accept the results.</p>

23

<p>ST2, I don't disagree with your post at all. My post was more of a "musing" --- in response to those who brought up the fact that student loans can't be discharged through bankruptcy, to be honest. I am appalled at the huge amount of loans many students today amass. I have stated previously that I foresee a big, big problem down the road.</p>

24

<p>We are dual-citizens of Canada and the US, and have lived and worked in both academic environments, and we've experienced the higher taxes in return for a more socialized system thing. Many of our academic friends are the same as us. Obviously we are a biased sample (since we all select to live in Canada right now) and it's easy to oversimplify, but all of us find it a great trade off. </p>

<p>Some may gasp at the taxes we pay because we're earning at the top end, but it seems to work for us (though I should note that the overall taxes paid when I move to Canada is the same as I paid in NYC when I left). We have a really nice house, recreational property, good public school education, fantastic public recreational facilities. We have no worries about college education costs and our kids can likely choose any Canadian school. We have no worries about future medical expenses, and we see any doctor we want. My point is not to boast but to simply convey we don't sacrifice our living standard at all due to our taxes. </p>

<p>But it's more complicated than just differing tuitions and taxes. The US has a fundamentally different college system. There is a real sense of discrepancy and ranking among US schools, and reputation and prestige have taken on a life of their own (sometimes independent of meaningful differences in actual education). Sure, Harvard has always and will always provide higher quality than say Timbukct State @ Wallamazoo North, but I believe the system has changed a lot for the worse since the USNWR built a new business model around the "ranking industry", and universities learned to invest heavily in marketing and branding. As a result, there is a much stronger sense that one has to compete for, and spend on, supposedly different qualities of education. The educational industry in the US is much more akin to any other corporate industry, working to convince consumers their product is better, in more demand, and thus worthy of costing a premium. As former professors in that industry, having had to play a role in creating facades to stay at the top of the Business Week Rankings, my husband and I don't believe this frenzy has resulted in BETTER education, just better marketing and packaging to consumers. That same model doesn't exist (at least yet) in Canada, or other countries perhaps.</p>

<p>In contrast, I think in Canada, and perhaps Europe, people are more likely to feel that everyone has a right to a higher education if they want it, or at least that educational opportunities should not be related to family wealth. Tuition is reasonable (e.g. McGill is about $1000 a year for a Quebec student!. Almost all universities are public, and most citizens feel they are relatively interchangeable in quality. Thus it is much more common to not move away, but to go to the nearest public university in your province which can save a lot on costs (the American tradition of "moving away to college" is relatively unique to the US perhaps). </p>

<p>How does the quality compare? I swap syllabus, material, readings with my American counterparts at the top schools. I haven't had to 'dumb' down or change my courses after going from an Ivy to a Canadian public school. And my various former students here who have gone onto graduate or professional schools in the US seem to hold their own just fine.</p>

25

<p>Thank you for a refreshing view.</p>

26

<p>
[quote]
Tuition is reasonable (e.g. McGill is about $1000 a year for a Quebec student!. Almost all universities are public, and most citizens feel they are relatively interchangeable in quality

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And yet there quite a few Canadian applicants to U.S. schools, including right here on CC.
Many of them seem to be seeking something Canadian universities aren't offering.</p>

<p>
[quote]
in Canada, and perhaps Europe, people are more likely to feel that everyone has a right to a higher education if they want it

[/quote]

I have found nowhere else in the world, the feeling that the most Americans seem to share, that we should provide a college education for everyone.
Certainly, in most parts of Europe you don't have a right to higher education just because you want it. In Germany your teacher has to feel that you, as a fifth grader, have what it takes, and allows you to be put on the college-bound track.</p>

27

<p>Sorry for this off-topic post but I'm currently repaying my college student loan debt too.</p>

<p>Is it a good idea to defer federal subsidized loans (will payments/interest increase?) or try to start paying even when you'll have less disposable income?</p>

28

<p>
[quote]
And yet there quite a few Canadian applicants to U.S. schools, including right here on CC.
Many of them seem to be seeking something Canadian universities aren't offering.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Some of them want to live in America after college, so go to college in US is the way to go.</p>

29

<p>^ so despite the
[quote]
really nice house, recreational property, good public school education, fantastic public recreational facilities. We have no worries about college education costs and our kids can likely choose any Canadian school. We have no worries about future medical expenses, and we see any doctor we want. My point is not to boast but to simply convey we don't sacrifice our living standard at all due to our taxes.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>they still want to come here...</p>

30

<p>A lot of Asian people want warmer weather, at least the ones that I know and talk to. Canada is too cold for them.</p>

31

<p>
[quote]
And yet there quite a few Canadian applicants to U.S. schools, including right here on CC.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's a tiny percentage of Canadian students though. What you see on CC is not representative (you can't extrapolate when you sample on the dependent variable). </p>

<p>
[quote]
Many of them seem to be seeking something Canadian universities aren't offering

[/quote]
.</p>

<p>Yes. What the few seek is As Seen On TV; that is, brand recognition that comes from sports or popular culture, so they've heard of Michigan State and Harvard (but not necessarily say, Amherst or Northwestern). But the kids for the most part are not appreciating differences in undergraduate educational features (having taught in both, and as a frequent visitor every year to numerous ones in both countries, I'm hard pressed to tell you myself). </p>

<p>But this is a digression from my main point which was not at all to start ranking American schools to others (I don't for a minute believe American schools are not high quality-- or less I'm trashing my own education! :)). But I do question the changes I've seen over the years in the US higher education system, which is more about marketing differences and playing the selectivity and ranking game and justify tuition costs, rather than genuine educational quality differences.</p>

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<p>^ do not disagree with you at all about the marketing and problems with soaring tuition. </p>

<p>Nor would I ever argue that educational quality is across the board better in the U.S., just that there a lot of choices, and sometimes people think that the "free" stuff is going to be exactly like the stuff (schools, health care options etc.) that they currently have available to them with the only difference being that the won't have pay for it. (E.g. often people are shocked that there are no LACs to speak of in most European countries, or that secondary schools and universities do not have sports teams, gyms, generally available student housing, that getting a private hospital room can often be impossible no matter how severe the condition, that it is very, very hard to convince hospital staff to give a laboring mother an epidural for pain relief etc. etc. )</p>

<p>There is always a trade-off, and I respect your judgment that for you it is worthwhile. </p>

<p>(I also realize that conditions in Canada are not the same as Western Europe)</p>

33

<br>


<br>

<p>And parents and students have to be more open to those possibilities.</p>

<p>The article focused on a graduate who went to art school in San Francisco. $100K debt may seem like a good bet when one is borrowing to go to med school or a great law school. Not such a good bet to go to art school...</p>

34

<p>
[quote]
The universities there make U.S. large state schools look like cozy LACs by comparison

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't understand this statement.</p>

<p>
[quote]
In Germany your teacher has to feel that you, as a fifth grader, have what it takes, and allows you to be put on the college-bound track.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>They must waste a lot of human potential, then. I'm talking about the late bloomers who don't show their strengths in 5th grade.</p>

35

<p>LOL, I have been the iconoclast here and railed against most college debt. I have, for years, advocated that kids take full rides from their local state university, assuming the state university has the programs that they want, over going to that "dream" private school. Few listened to me. Yes, much of this debt will come home to haunt millions of kids who were swayed by the "attend the dream school at any cost"mentality." Parents sacrificed their retirements in order to achieve this. It is very sad.</p>

<p>Just for the record, here is the url for the thread that I started over a year ago about incurring substantial debt for that "dream " school.</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/476132-should-you-incur-substantial-debt-dream-school-even-pay-dream-tuition.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/476132-should-you-incur-substantial-debt-dream-school-even-pay-dream-tuition.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>One poster ( maximus001) said it very well in his post,which said</p>

<p>"We have so many friends that literally will say: "Beg, borrow, or steal" to send your s to the very best college you can. That's not what our investment counselor suggests. Debt compels one to make choices that may not always be in one's best interest.</p>

<p>The rat race of work, study, compete seems to start so early and last so long. When you add the burden of debt to the equation, it's depressing and overwhelming for many.</p>

<p>We subscribe to the idea of getting the best product at the best price within our budget. There are some great educational products out there that are a tiny fraction of full freight private colleges costs.</p>

<p>Graduating debt free is liberating and allows one's next class of choices to be based on something more personal than the repayment of crippling debt. JMHO"</p>

36

<p>
[quote]
We subscribe to the idea of getting the best product at the best price within our budget.

[/quote]

I agree with the above -- for example, when buying a car -- but when applied to education (or, for that matter, healthcare) there is something disturbing about this statement. Yes, you can definitely get a first-rate education in the U.S. without paying for an Ivy, but there is a huge range in quality and price at American universities. What seems fundamentally wrong to me is that students' educational choices are so dependent on family income. </p>

<p>Thanks to Starbright (post#24) for an illuminating comparison between the American and Canadian university systems. I agree with the following:

[quote]
There is a real sense of discrepancy and ranking among US schools

[/quote]

[quote]
In contrast, I think in Canada, and perhaps Europe, people are more likely to feel that everyone has a right to a higher education if they want it, or at least that educational opportunities should not be related to family wealth. Almost all universities are public, and most citizens feel they are relatively interchangeable in quality.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>For those who say the European and Canadian system is not "free" -- yes, you pay higher taxes, though that depends on income bracket; apparently Starbright paid the same amount in taxes living in Canada and in NYC. Look what was provided in exchange for these taxes: college and medical care in Canada vs. bombs for the military in the U.S. The difference in national priorities is stunning.</p>

37

<p>"The U.S. system does not produce loan slaves, either. CHOICE produces loan slaves. Educational opportunities do exist that do not require taking out huge loans." </p>

<p>Perhaps but one could add college professors to the list of people who've found themselves as little more than educated sharecroppers for the financiers in the education loan industry. </p>

<p>And to place the word CHOICE in capital letters will not compensate for the fact that choice is a limited condition in regards to educational financing. It's been a long process wherein non loan aid such as Pells have been undermined, and what remains has not been increased in any meaningful manner. Whilst during the same process the amount of federal support given to the loan industry has escalated along with the sweet heart regulations and laws which have given that same industry unparalleled influence and a unique ability for incredible abuses of student borrowers. The choices here are being made by financiers and their shills in government, leaving little actual choice for families and students. </p>

<p>I certainly do not recall the electorate making the choice for this system, nor do I recall a groundswell of support for that same industries recent (and fraudulent) over billing of the USDOE of over 1 billion dollars. Unless of course we spontaneously and subconsciously elected to donate our tax money to these corporations and just don't know it yet. </p>

<p>And this system has not made American Universities somehow superior to those in Canada, Germany, or other countries. In some cases it could be argued that our debt based educational funding system has made it inferior. In many fields the cost of a terminal degree precludes working in academe. Quite literally many in these fields cannot afford to stay and teach which they have learned. </p>

<p>This is very evident from both the NEA and AMA begging the USDOE to do something about loan forgiveness programs and restoring proper consumer rights. Their members literally cannot afford to remain in teaching, or to enter it. And it's also evident from the number of my own colleagues who have left teaching or remain but live in economic deprivation. And its abundantly obvious they will be the last generation to take the path of service within academe if these trends are permitted to continue. So this system has not made US higher education superior, and if these conditions continue it will be the ruin of our higher education institutions. </p>

<p>US higher education has for almost a generation been co-opted by financial profiteers and no one has benefited except them. And as a result of this mess it won't be long before the US is out competed by countries which don't compel their best and most ambitious to mire themselves in debt to acquire an education. And yes some want to come to the US for an education, for many reasons. But that said many of us working and teaching in academe would bolt out of this country in an instant if it were a place where the edudebt industry wasn't holding all the cards. </p>

<p>So how in any way can this dysfunctional situation be one where choice is actually a viable alternative? And how in any way has this system benefited the common good of our society?</p>

38

<p>Atana, I couldn't agree more.

[quote]
The choices here are being made by financiers and their shills in government, leaving little actual choice for families and students.

[/quote]

Actually, the U.S. system DOES produce loan slaves. Sure, some students and their parents are making bad economic decisions. But one's "choices" are so severely limited by income as to be no real "choice" at all. The only people with real choices are the wealthy. It is no "choice" to pick community college if you have high stats but that is all you can afford. Only recently have a very few top schools replaced loans with grants, and that is only due to the fact that Congress began to look at their large endowments and question their aid policies. So now we have an even more ridiculous situation where a few schools -- the most difficult to get into -- are also the ones which are the most generous in their financial aid.</p>

<p>I am critical of this system, which works for only a few unusually brilliant but poor students, or the wealthy. The way to measure a society is how it takes care of the majority, which in this case is the middle and lower middle class. Loan slavery flourishes here because we have a culture that promotes "everyman for himself" and does not value an educated citizenry enough to sufficiently fund high quality, public, affordable universities. And on top of that, our government permits usurious lending practices for student loans.</p>

39

<p>"I am critical of this system, which works for only a few unusually brilliant but poor students, or the wealthy. The way to measure a society is how it takes care of the majority, which in this case is the middle and lower middle class. Loan slavery flourishes here because we have a culture that promotes "everyman for himself" and does not value an educated citizenry enough to sufficiently fund high quality, public, affordable universities. And on top of that, our government permits usurious lending practices for student loan" </p>

<p>Quite true anneroku. And an increasing number of people including many within or who are the products of that system are seeing it for the social detriment it has become. The US government is one of the few in developed countries which has allowed the flourishing of usury in regards to educational funding. And of those few countries which did allow these industries a foothold (which was used to kick the door in) most except the US are trying to remedy the situation. It may be in incremental steps such as those reforms undertaken by the Canadians, but it is being done. </p>

<p>The problem is the shiny PR machine of academe and the edudebt industry has used the American weakness for Horatio Alger fables for their own ends. And if "Ragged Dick" is unable to pay his student loans, well it's all his failure and not that of a rigged system.
But when the doctor down the street, the teacher in the classroom, and the prof who taught them both find it's been a financiers trick...it'll be that much harder for version 2.2 of the old Horatio Alger marketing to work.</p>

40

<p>And now for the million dollar question ... how do you propose to change the situation?</p>