<p>"For years, young people have been banking on the message that acquiring job skills and an education will pave the way to financial security. Instead, for many, the quest for a college degree has only dumped them even deeper into the financial pit."
There is some discussion in the comment section of how this is a uniquely American disaster -- one poster mentions moving to Germany for affordable tuition.
"Most European universities are outstanding schools, yet they charge minimal tuitions; many, also, do loan forgiveness after several years."</p>
<p>"The economy these days looks frightening for just about everyone. Who would want to be a retiree with little to no earning potential, or a young family grappling with mortgage and child care payments while facing the possibility, or reality, of job loss? But imagine trying to enter the labor force right now, making career choices that could affect your entire earning future. How are college graduates supposed to juggle student loan payments with the realities of an imploding job market and family members too caught up in their own financial turmoil to help out? With all the attention focused on failing banks and government bailouts, the very legitimate panic felt by such graduates risks getting lost in the shuffle."</p>
<p>My D is a graduating senior, and luckily I can afford to make her student loan payments as of now. My husband is facing a layoff, but we believe he can find consulting work. </p>
<p>I don't know what will happen if I also lose my job. </p>
<p>D is awaiting a decision from Teach for America. We are praying she gets it. Many of her friends are applying to grad school to defer trying to get a job in this economy.</p>
<p>Most European universities are NOT outstanding schools. There is a range, just as in the US. Most Europeans pay more in taxes than do Americans. Most European countries are more Socialist than the US.</p>
<p>It's just a different approach to saving: whether to assume responsibility for financing one's children's education oneself or being compelled to do so through the tax system. Most Americans seem to prefer the former but complain endlessly about the cost of education and of health care.</p>
<p>It may be quite similar for the middle class. For the rich and the poor, the two approaches produce quite different results. Bringing the discussion back to student loans, the European system does not produce "Student Loan Slaves."</p>
<p>The U.S. system does not produce loan slaves, either. CHOICE produces loan slaves. Educational opportunities do exist that do not require taking out huge loans.</p>
<p>German students are put into "tracks" in 5th grade, essentially deciding at that point if they are university material. [yes, there are exceptions, but it is assumed that MOST students will NOT go on to college] The universities there make U.S. large state schools look like cozy LACs by comparison. The system is very different, and I doubt, that most cc students and parents would be very happy to trade.</p>
<p>kelsmom: >>The U.S. system does not produce loan slaves, either. CHOICE produces loan slaves. Educational opportunities do exist that do not require taking out huge loans.<<</p>
<p>If only it were so simple. Ask doctors, dentists, surgeons what they think. Many come out with over $100,000 in debt and that includes those that went to in-state public universities. While debt loads for MDs is climbing the income MDs make is slowly declining, and it's going to get worse because Medicare continues to cut payouts to doctors.</p>
<p>Graduating with $100k in student loans was "OK" (I guess) when the graduates were going into investment banking and private equity with expectations of making $millions in a few years. Just like taking out 100% interest only no documentation mortgages were ok when house prices were guaranteed to go UP 20% annually. Well, looks like both are not happening any more. </p>
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The system is very different, and I doubt, that most cc students and parents would be very happy to trade.
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I would be very happy to trade. Yes, Europeans pay higher taxes. But look what they get for those taxes: free college, free medical care, low cost or free day care, paid maternity leave, excellent public transportation, no bankruptcy due to medical bills, no fear of changing jobs due to uncovered "pre-existing conditions," etc. </p>
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German students are put into "tracks" in 5th grade, essentially deciding at that point if they are university material.
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We also have tracks here, though not as official or explicit. Poor inner-city schools = non-college track.</p>
<p>Well yes, but after graduation employment is the only way these loans will ever be repaid. It does seem harsh to sentence students to lifelong repayment schedules due to circumstances beyond their control. Borrow too much on a house and one loses the house --- the debt disappears. Student loans have no such equivalent. And the people taking out these loans are children for the most part.</p>
<p>*Borrow too much on a house and one loses the house --- the debt disappears. *
only if you are able to sell it and pay off your loan- many are finding they cannot.
Ever total a car and still owe?
Some have.
Children are not allowed to take out loans- adults however are able to get jobs, credit cards and education loans as well as sign rental agreements, get married, join the service et.al.</p>
<p>Bankruptcy is an option of last resort to discharge your debt if you lose your house and can't pay off your loan. On the other hand, student debt cannot be discharged via bankruptcy. You'll have to lose a couple of limbs for your student debt to be discharged.</p>
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I would be very happy to trade. Yes, Europeans pay higher taxes. But look what they get for those taxes
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</p>
<p>You may get your wish. But all those "free" things you listed come at a pretty high cost. Mainly lack of choices. I am very familiar with the German education and health care system -- neither of them works very well anymore. </p>
<p>Aside from the flaws in the systems, the biggest problem is the unsustainability of all these "free" services. It worked fine when it was financed by the hard-working, post-war generation who were able to participate in the "econonic miracle", but with changing demographics, values and economies, the system cannot be sustained.</p>
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But all those "free" things you listed come at a pretty high cost. Mainly lack of choices.
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I would argue that the typical American health care consumer also suffers from lack of choices. For example, I am not covered if I try to see a doctor outside of my HMO. Many American workers cannot switch jobs due to "pre-existing medical conditions." The German system is somewhat unusual in Europe and is never ranked among the top health care systems like France and Italy. But, at the very least, they simply do not have millions of uninsured who have no access to medical care.</p>
<p>As for education, choices for American students are also limited -- mainly by family finances.</p>
<p>I see what you mean, Kels(post 7). Some choices that come to mind quickly are jobs the parent(choose), money they chose to put away for offspring, gifts from other family, efforts of college bound student to earn and to seek scholarships/grants, earnings student has saved for his own college fund, choice of school, college immediately or delayed, and military service. I'm sure there are many many more, but those choices come to my mind quickly, and all those choices are made before student enters college and before any debt acquired. Imo just like most everything in this life, making poor choices leads to limiting one's opportunities.</p>
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millions of uninsured who have no access to medical care
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</p>
<p>You do not have to be insured to have access to medical care. You still have the option (admittedly less attractive) to pay for it yourself.</p>
<p>One just cannot characterize the educational choices in the U.S., ranging from community colleges, state university systems, private colleges etc., "limited", when compared to Germany or other quasi-socialized systems. Family finances may prohibit many U.S. students from going to the college of their choice, may indeed prohibit some students from attending college at all, but unless you are properly tracked in Germany you have next to no chance of going to the university. There is a fundamental difference in the view of higher education, and it is not their goal to provide everyone, or even most, with a university education.</p>
<p>Your point about "tracking" in the U.S due to socioeconomic status is valid and the public school failure borders on the criminal, in my opinion. Unfortunately, with an increasingly multicultural society, Germany's once admirable education system is failing miserably in educating much of their population, as well.</p>
I am afraid that kelsmom is exactly on the money here. There are alternatives to huge debt, and that should be considered. My son qualified for a lot of expensive institutions, but one public (out-of-state) offered a very good financial incentive. And now he is about to graduate free of student loan debt.</p>
<p>I know that it is hard to say to a student that his/her dream school is just not affordable, but we all have to make decisions based on finances: homes, cars, vacations.... It's a good lesson for a student to learn early (like, before the college decision comes up).</p>
<p>The US system is all about choices, for both parents and students. Parental choices, made much earlier in life, have been pointed out above. At the same time students also have choices, again made years before college. We explained these choices and their consequence to our kids in middle school. They were told they could go to any school they wanted, as long as they received scholarships - otherwise it was the stae U. They took it to heart, established their goals and ended up with full merit scholarships at top 20 schools. It was a choice that involved a lot of hard work and sacrifice, but they felt that they made the right choice for them. Unfortunately, too many people wait too long to make their choice and then are not happy with the consequences. This may not work for everyone, but it certainly worked for our family.</p>