College prestige importance or lack thereof for various majors, career paths, and graduate / professional schools

Parents Forum
141

That depends on the college, in particular, how they view legacies. I’ve seen first hand Stanford take a legacy that was dramatically less qualified than another student at the same school.

It was the first year of the common app. The rejected student had a 2400 SAT, 4.0, lots of good ECs, was beloved by faculty, and was accepted by Harvard and Yale. The accepted student had a 1900 SAT, a sub-4.0, pedestrian ECs, no other remarkable acceptances, but multiple family members that were Stanford alums.

Was he “qualified”? Maybe, but not as qualified as his unconnected classmate.

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142

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-jp-morgan-hongkong-corruption/ex-jpmorgan-banker-faces-hong-kong-bribery-charges-over-princeling-hires-idUSKCN1SM10Z

Even an institution as venerable as JP Morgan got its hands caught in the cookie jar.

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143

It does indeed, and from a certain perspective, these are all just different parts of the same overall system of how political, social, financial, and intellectual capital interact to their mutual profit in the United States, and beyond.

And it is not a lie, given their definitions of qualifications. The fact is all the different parts of this system do value intellectual capital, but that is not the only thing they value. And among other things, they value the sorts of people who are good at forming connections that can prove mutually beneficial.

So that is their “business model”, and it is ultimately where a lot of their money comes from. And the parts of this system which are colleges and universities use their share of that money to do things like build labs and stadiums, dorms and activities centers, recruit faculty, provide tuition subsidies, and so on. And all that then feeds into them being consistently ranked as “top” colleges and universities by measures like “peer reputation”, “research output”, “student selectivity”, and so on.

So at a high level, that is what these “elite” educational institutions have done to become “elite”, and stay “elite”. And then ambitious HS students see the results of all that, and many want a piece of it for themselves.

Because their “business model” works, and indeed has been carefully refined over the decades, and in some cases centuries, to work.

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144

It also sounds like the reason many sports stars have parents who played the same sport. Steph Curry didn’t get his job through “connections” but his father undoubtedly helped him progress as a basketball player much faster and further than a random kid with the same level of hand-eye coordination.

The question about fairness of and benefits from college “prestige”, legacies etc (and parental connections) boils down to whether they are simply helping surface latent talent or putting a thumb on the scales to favor lesser talent.

145

Most of us are expected to help our kids develop their talents, in addition to whatever genetic contributions we may have made. AFAIK, no one has made any argument that this is unfair. Steph Curry’s father would have been derelict of his duty had he not had helped young Steph develop his talent. OTOH, people with special talent like Steph are likely to emerge anyway at some point in an area (such as sports) where talents can be objectively measured. Nikola Jokić, for example, didn’t have the same upbringing, but he made it to the top like Steph.

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146

Investment banking is a relationship business. Talents are ultimately assessed by the clients they bring and/or maintain. In some sense, the banker in HK was doing what she was supposed to do, except that she crossed the line of legality, while wining, dining and entertaining clients wouldn’t, even though their purposes are the same.

147

I work in asset management in London.

Probably around 50% of our equity team went to Oxford or Cambridge and there are quite a few people who have American MBAs from Harvard, Wharton and Stanford.

Is that a coincidence?

We’re now university-blind and recent intakes are much, much more diverse.

In the 1990s, it was just Oxford or Cambridge from what I’ve heard from older members.

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148

If, like other boutique asset managers, your firm only hires from a small set of elite schools, then no.

149

If, like other boutique asset managers, your firm only hires from a small set of elite schools, then no.

The point I was making is that it wasn’t university-blind before and the intake was much different to today.

And today, it’s much more diverse in terms of university selection.

So for many employers, it clearly matters.

But a university-blind process would perhaps lead to different results as my firm shows.

Connections obviously matter. My firm encourages us to refer applicants for roles - that referral means you get pulled to the front of the line because someone has vouched for you.

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150

Yes, as has been mentioned upthread by other posters.

151

Yes, as has been mentioned upthread by other posters.

As I’m aware.

I was reiterating that point.

152

I remember when Chelsea Clinton was accepted into Stanford, the people in charge of dorm assignments said they were bombarded by requests from PARENTS to have their child share their dorm room with Chelsea.

153

It depends how you define “many.” For many investment banking type positions, college prestige is important. However, elite banking is more the exception than the rule. Hiring in the overwhelming majority of other industries places tremendously less importance on college prestige. I’ve previously linked to a survey of hundreds of employers, in which employers as a whole rated college reputation as the least influential factor in evaluating new grads resumes for hiring decisions. When asked which types of colleges they had the most/least favorable opinions of for hiring decisions, state flagships and national universities were both ranked higher than elite universities.

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154

It looks like she was eventually acquitted of bribery. However, JPM (and other big name firms) have had to settle/pay multi million dollar fines or were the subject to questioning under Foreign Corrupt Practices investigations related to their hiring practices. It’s a very slippery and ill defined slope between cultivating relationships and bribery through doing favors as a quid quo pro.

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155

Behind a paywall.

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156

I get a warning from FT if I try to cut and paste some excerpts.

In short, the lady banker was acquitted. Goldman, Deutsche Bank, Credit Suisse, Citigroup, Morgan Stanley were named as banks that have been questioned about their hiring practices. JPM paid a fine of $264mm to settle an investigation by the DoJ. CS $77mm and DB $16mm.

If you Google “JP Morgan hiring princelings Hong Kong”, a bunch of articles, including the one in the FT will pop up. I actually am not a subscriber, but I can view the article.

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157

From FT:

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158

Analogous to the D in ALDC admission to colleges like Harvard?

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159

As I recall a lot of people started off confused during the “Varsity Blues” scandal about what why those were federal crimes, and things like donors getting preferential treatment in admissions were not. The basic answer is in Varsity Blues the parents and certain school employees were defrauding the schools, and when you commit fraud over interstate telecommunications, that is a federal crime. But if you just make a donation to the school, there is no such fraud involved.

What tripped up the banks in the “Princeling” scandal was the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which makes it a crime to pay bribes to foreign officials.

So, yeah. Exactly what counts as a crime and what doesn’t in this sort of area requires some very specific legal analysis.

160

The Varsity Blues scandal involved bribing coaches to have kids falsely listed as recruited athletes and/or bribing proctors to correct SAT/ACT answers. It’s quite different from a college choosing to give admission preference to a family who makes large donations through channels that the college allows/encourages. I doubt that it requires a lot of legal analysis to distinguish between the two.

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