<p>Do people deserve to be killed by sharks? Nope. </p>
<p>But is it wise to wade into shark infested waters holding fresh meat? Nope. </p>
<p>There are many types of rape. But, I think sometimes girls flirt too much with guys they do not intend to have sex with. However, that “no sex” part does not get interpreted well…</p>
<p>Hey, people who have never been drunk: I think this is something you aren’t going to understand. When we are talking about drunk sex here, we are not talking about drinking a little and making a few mistakes. We are talking about sex that happens when someone is INCAPABLE of making a decision. Those who do not drink perhaps do not understand how different those situations truly are. </p>
<p>I think a lot of you are assuming that a woman would gladly accuse someone of rape after drunk sex. Making accusations of rape is something no woman would take lightly, save a few very troubled people. Woman understand that we must take responsibility for our actions, even when we are drunk. Most women (and men) are moral people who see no pleasure it putting an innocent man in jail. Just like all men aren’t rapists, all women are not incapable of owning up for their decisions. There are situations, however, when a woman (or a man, for that matter) is a past a point where they can reasonably make a decision. This is why the law that defines drunken sex as rape exists. It is there to protect people who are taken advantage of when they are too drunk. This is not a law that people are eager to take advantage of. Again, it is a hassle and it accomplishes nothing for the woman – not like they get money or something, they just put someone behind bars who they know has no reason to be there. </p>
<p>Many of you say that it is the woman’s fault for drinking. Last I checked, drinking is not illegal in the United States. Whether you like it or not, drinking is an extremely common activity that is not at all disreputable among 21+ adults. It is unfair to expect a woman to refrain from drinking just so no one takes advantage of her. That’s not her job. It’s like saying a woman shouldn’t go out after dark because she might also be taken advantage of there. </p>
<p>What many of you are doing is applying pure logic without taking into account the emotions and mental capacities of the parties involved. You are saying that it is convenient for someone to use the law to take blame off themselves, so therefore it is likely that this would happen. In reality, if two people have sex when drunk, it is likely that one or both of them will regret it, but also likely that it MAKES VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE TO THEM that it happened. What do they lose by having drunken sex? Yeah, it’s unsafe, but if they come away from it healthy, both of them would likely want to FORGET AND MOVE ON. There are few people who are so obsessed with their own purity that they would go so far as to claim rape in a situation that actually was not. Don’t come back at me with articles saying otherwise – I know that false accusations of rape do happen. But saying that because women CAN make false accusations means that all women WILL is ridiculous. That’s the same as me saying that one man raping a women (because they can) means that all men will. It makes no sense. Both parties are CAPABLE of doing wrong, but that does not mean that everyone is inherently evil and will absolutely do the worst thing possible. That claim is absurd. </p>
<p>Invoking the law that counts drunk sex as rape is something that would really only happen in situations where a woman – likely not a man, because it would be physically difficult to have sex with a man who was incapacitated – has been maliciously taken advantage of when she is not capable of consent. If someone can say “yes” without being somehow intimidated into saying so, it’s pretty unlikely that that person will later think of it as rape. </p>
<p>You see, no one WANTS to feel like a rape victim. It is a situation where you completely lose control and are entirely de-humanized. I have made many regrets sexually when drunk. But I take pride in taking responsibility for those actions. I do not want to feel raped when I don’t think that I have been. I don’t want to be seen as a victim in the eyes of the law when I have no reason to be. Most women, like most men, have dignity and self-esteem. We do not want them to be taken from us. No one does. No woman wants to be raped – that means that very few would go out of their way to be seen as a rape victim.</p>
<p>PS – I am not saying that it is disreputable to have been raped, in case you misunderstand me. I’m just saying that it is something few women take lightly. There is such a stigma to being a rape victim that most women, if they are not in fact victims, would prefer to avoid. For those who have been raped, identifying themselves a rape victim is not at all a disreputable thing to do. It’s likely that it will help them regain their confidence. But for someone who has not been raped, it does exactly the opposite.</p>
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<p>Oh, come on. This is really immature. A woman can act however she wants. It’s not her fault if what she says is misinterpreted. She didn’t intend for it to be so. It’s not our job to make sure that you don’t rape us. Seriously. That’s pretty much saying that men are animals with no emotions or sense of responsibility because if a women flirts with them, they don’t have the control to not rape her. That’s unfair to both parties, especially the men.</p>
<p>Also, there are many types of rape? No. Rape is rape. There isn’t okay-rape and she-was-asking-for-it-rape and he’s-just-psycho-rape. It’s all rape.</p>
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<p>It’s NOT their FAULT. But it increases the probability. Just because something is wrong doesn’t mean there’s no cause and effect. </p>
<p>That’s the same with getting drunk. Yes she still has her rights. But it increases the probability. </p>
<p>I don’t think it’s wrong to tell someone that hey, if you change your behaviour than there’s a smaller chance of you getting rape. At least that makes a difference compared to randomly discussing the ethics of rape and whether no means yes.</p>
<p>“It is unfair to expect a woman to refrain from drinking just so no one takes advantage of her. That’s not her job.”</p>
<p>Then tell me what she should do instead. What would you say to a girl who doesn’t want to get raped but still wants to go to a club drunk with strangers. Are you going to tell her that the constitution makes her invulnerable?</p>
<p>The drunk driving argument is moot because even when you’re drunk, you choose to go for a drive. You don’t choose to be sexually assaulted.</p>
<p>If I was a woman I’d buy a nice Glock and take some CCW training and get a CCW permit. Hell I’ll probably do that even though I’m a guy. When seconds count the police are only minutes away. I’m not gonna let myself be put in a body bag because I couldn’t defend myself against an attacker come hell or high water.</p>
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<p>I agree with your post, since it’s basically what I’ve been saying for the past few days. However, let’s not generalize this and say that only a few troubled individuals would accuse someone of rape because we’re not able to provide quantifiable evidence which could lend us insight into exactly how many cases have been based off of false accusations. What you may believe to be a mere dozen cases may actually be thousands which have resulted from pressure placed upon the accuser from ethnic or familial biases. I’m not saying that the majority of rape cases are due to false accusations, but until we attain irrefutable evidence which gives us the exact number of false claims, as well as real cases, let’s try to refrain from saying that only a few troubled individuals would do something like this.</p>
<p>Our country operates under the principle of “innocence until proven guilty.” Since these women have been deemed “innocent” of lying, it is absolutely reasonable to assume that this is so. Similarly, the courts have proven these men guilty, and unless we are their appeal lawyer, we have no reason to blindly assume their innocence. They have been proven guilty. Yes, obviously the justice system gets it wrong many times. I know this because my dad is a public defender. But without concrete evidence in favor of a man’s innocence, there’s no reason to make blanket that it’s more than a few individuals who do things like this. You have no reason to presume that all those women might be lying and frankly it undermines rape victims everywhere to keep holding this ridiculous notion that they all might be lying. Yes, they might be lying. Anyone might be lying. But rape is one of the only situations where people keep on insisting that the women are probably lying. Since we only know of a few cases where this is so, it’s absolutely justified to believe that the other cases are not so.
As the entire point of my post was, it would take a troubled woman to take rape accusations lightly. Maybe there are many troubled women out there, but a typical woman does not want to just accuse people of rape. How do I know? Because I am a woman, one who feel blessed to not be a victim of such an egregious crime, and would never deign to accuse someone of something so serious. I have been sexually harassed (which of course does not really compare) and guess what? I didn’t say anything. That’s a MUCH more common reaction, but instead you focus on the few cases when the opposite is true…like I said, it undermines rape victims everywhere.
Are you really going to tell TwistedxKiss that she made her whole story up? Who are you to not believe her? Continuing to insist on the amount of women who lie about this is indirectly sending that message. At least, so it seems to me.</p>
<p>^^^If that was in reference to me, you’ve completely misconstrued my entire post. I think you should go back and read it again.</p>
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<p>Yes, I would. Because I have gone to a club drunk (they sell drinks there, BTW, so clearly drunk and clubs don’t result in pure evil). And since the vast majority of men are not psychopaths who would stop at nothing to control and humiliate, nothing bad happens to me. I’m not asking for it nor am I doing anything provocative by going. I am exercising my right to go to a club when I want to. The Constitution doesn’t have a clause under free speech that says “NO COCKTEASING, OR ELSE RAPE’S OKAY.” Men have the responsibility to control themselves. Women have this responsibility too. Both have the right to go out in public dressed however they choose and not be raped. Why do you distrust your own gender so much?</p>
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It’s not about who’s fault. </p>
<p>It’s about probability. Quite simply, if you don’t get drunk the probabilities are lower.</p>
<p>No I did read it!
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<p>Maybe this was not your intention, but by allowed that “a mere dozen cases may actually be thousands” without evidence to think so is actually undermining the courts. My point was that it is far more reasonable to assume that the courts are correct and thus give our support to rape victims than to say that there maybe are thousands of false accusations out there. Maybe that’s not what you meant, but that’s what comes across.</p>
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<p>The same can be said for a number of things. Women shouldn’t have to constantly restrict their freedoms for the fear of rape. Of course, caution is advised, but we can’t just say women shouldn’t drink at all because they’re going to get raped.</p>
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<p>Yeah, and so women don’t get to drink just to lower the probability of being raped? Like I said, drinking is legal. Women have the right to drink! I just don’t see how the issue of rape at ALL involves the victim. It isn’t the victim’s fault – we all have a right to not be raped no matter what!</p>
<p>I’d also like to see your statistic that says that drinking increases the probability of rape, BTW. I think many rapes are not this whole drunk sex/iffy taking advantage of thing.</p>
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<p>Well, you got the post completely wrong, which is evident through definitive terms such as “all”, which was used in your post several times, even though I made it a conscious effort to not convey that I believed that all rape victims are liars. Also, the fact that you brought twisted’s case up leads me to believe that you think I’m on your opposition’s side of the fence when that is not true at all.</p>
<p>Now, let me reiterate. I have no problem with your argument, I just don’t believe that saying that women lying about this only occurs in a “few” instances in which the accuser is a “troubled individual.” As we both know, the majority of claims of rape in this country never even reach the courts, due to lack of evidence from the victim’s refusal to cooperate with authorities or because of other circumstances. Therefore, when we take the courts out of the system, it is impossible for us to know whether 20% of the people who claim they’ve been raped have lied or if .05% of them lied. Because of that reason and that reason only, I said you shouldn’t use the phrase “a few very troubled people” since the number of people who you think are capable of committing such a heinous act may be much greater than you believe.</p>
<p>Furthermore, when I used the word “case”, I was speaking in a colloquial tone, rather than a legal one. These two definitions are widely different, and I probably should have specified that, so my apologies for not explicitly noting that I meant case as in an instance of the crime occurring, rather than a defendant being indicted and charged with the crime (this also makes your innocent unless proven guilty argument impertinent, since I wasn’t discussing matters of the court). Therefore, my aim was not to mitigate the judicial power of the courts, nor to make it seem that our legal system is faulty and impotent. Of course, it does have its flaws, but what system doesn’t (rhetorical)?</p>
<p>Now, if we discuss the norms which you suggest, we are led to believe that most women would not accuse a man of such an act due to its extremely detrimental ramifications. I agree, and that is a widely accepted social norm in our country. However, it is also a social norm to make sure that a woman consents to sex and not to force her to have sex under duress. Using the statistics that we’ve seen in this thread (although there are disparities amongst them, leading one to question their validity), it is clearly seen that the failure to abide by this social norm of not forcing women into sexual acts which they do not wish to partake in reaches far beyond a few twisted individuals. Being that committing a rape is arguably a more abhorrent act than lying about being raped, I believe that since thousands of males commit the act, there could be more than just a few females who lie about the crime befalling them. Again, I’m not saying that the majority of females lie; I’m just saying that the number of women who do lie could be more than the few which you suggested. </p>
<p>Then again, there’s no way to prove either argument. We could go by what we believe to be prosaic behavior, but again, rape in itself is not a mundane occurrence amongst all males and females. Being that as it may, we should not use words which indicate a certain percentage such as “a few” or “a lot” since we cannot be sure. However, you are right to say that it is foolish to believe that all women lie about this crime, and I have agreed with you previously and refuted other posters’ claims that such a case is true. To be succinct, we should not assume that the majority of women lie about this crime, nor should we assume that only an infinitesimal amount of these cases are based off of false claims. We should only acknowledge that there are real cases in which rape does occur and false cases in which the accuser has lied, since we will not be able to find substantial evidence which proves otherwise. </p>
<p>I’m not against you at all, and you’ve actually saved me time since you’ve spoken my mind with several of your posts. I just felt the need to comment on your use of the phrase “a few” since I had a problem with its implications. Do you understand what I was saying now?</p>
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<p>You can choose to sleep with a guy that you find unattractive in the morning. That is the choice you make, and that is what I was referring to. It was a response to another post in which someone said that having sex with someone with your drunk goggles on is actually rape, even if both parties gave consent.</p>
<p>East, I’m not going to argue with you, but sometimes the reasons rape cases don’t go to court does not necessarily mean that the woman refuses to cooperate. Sometimes after a rape a victim will shower countless times in order to feel clean again which will wash away the evidence. Sometimes it takes too long for them to gather their courage and report it which makes it difficult for the police as its harder to get evidence and sometimes they will be skeptical and frustrated and then the victim might recant because she’s too stressed by this (this happened to my friend, she waited a week and a half to report the rape).</p>
<p>Another thing is that it is a huge ordeal for the victim to go through. The rape kit is typically invasive, but imagine some stranger probing you after you get raped. Then they have to tell the story over and over again. They have to tell it to the police multiple times, and then in court. Some women would just prefer to move on with their lives.</p>
<p>^^^Yea, I know all of that. That’s why I said, “due to lack of evidence from the victim’s refusal to cooperate with authorities or because of other circumstances.” I didn’t really feel the need to list all of the reasons why the rapist can’t be charged since that wasn’t the question at hand. Thanks for filling in the gaps that I left though, in case anyone else was uninformed about those circumstances.</p>
<p>Oh my bad. My brain is still fried from finals. </p>
<p>Cuse- I don’t know how often you have been drunk, but there was a night recently where I got very drunk and my friends decided to put me to bed. I refused and fought them. They decided to tell me that we were going to go to another party. I then followed them willingly straight into my dorm room and into my bed still thinking I was going to a party. I was easily manipulated into doing something I didn’t want to do. This shows how easily people can be tricked into a situation where they are not able to give consent because their mind isn’t working at its usual standard.</p>
<p>@East-- Thank you for your clarification. Having forgotten what “side” you were on of the argument, I falsely assumed that, instead of simply seeking accuracy, you were trying to split hairs and prove that women were somehow actively trying to accuse men by using laws prohibiting drunken sex. </p>
<p>I appreciate your being fair and level-headed. You are right that all women certainly are capable of lying about being raped (or lying about anything, for that matter). When I was talking about the “few, very troubled” people who would falsely accuse someone of rape, I meant it mostly in the context of someone using it to accuse someone after making drunken mistakes. I meant that it would be highly unlikely for someone to use the legal system to avenge random sex with someone unattractive. However, there are many cases when a sane, rational (but calculating) woman could have a variety of motives for falsely accusing someone of rape. I doubt very much that she would do so because she felt guilty for having sex, but there are plenty of other reasons to lie. Sadly, rape is a very difficult crime to find clear-cut evidence about, and there is great potential to either let a rapist go free (and crush the ego of a victim) or falsely incarcerate an innocent, letting the real criminal (the false accuser) go free.</p>
<p>this questions is more about the earlier post about the statistic that 1 in 3 women will get raped, and 1 in 5 will get raped in college. i am curious how accurate this is, but my main question is what is defined as rape in these cases. do these statistics include women who were drunk and had sex, cause i hardly call that rape. in my opinion, it is only rape really if a man uses his physical superiority or something like date rape where the women is basically passed out, to rape her.</p>