<p>We didn’t ask for help and they didn’t offer. I’m sure if we REALLY needed help, they would have stepped in. (ie health problems, extended job loss) We were just expected to be independent. They loved us thoroughly, but I think it is just a different point of view. If you are married, you are an adult and you should take care of yourself. (Similar to Owlice and EK’s posts).</p>
<p>Why is being married a sign of “maturity?” Maturity is (one hopes!) related to age and experience, not marital status.
“You should not get married until you are an adult” is different from “if you’re married, you’re an adult.” </p>
<p>If parents want to cut off their children because the children flout their wishes, they should say so and not hide behind phony excuses.<br>
In this case, it seems obvious to me that the mother is expecting the marriage to be an unhappy one. If she cuts off her daughter, the latter will have no resources to fall back on. Is the mother expecting the daughter to come back to her, contrite and ready to resume her education? Won’t it be harder for the daughter to pick up the pieces?</p>
<p>He who pays the piper calls the tune. Do I want my kids to have a degree and a comfortable life? Of course. However, if the child wants to do it “their way”, then I am not obligated to fund their “youthful indiscretion”. Better to cut them off and let them make the mistakes early. Then they will understand what is being offered to them, and more likely to take advice in the future.</p>
<p>Otherwise, you could be accused of “enabling” them to be irresponsible. Sometimes it is called “tough love”. So, it might set up the kid to be a few years late graduating. But, they got an invaluable lesson in life along the way. Better to declare bankruptcy now than 5 years from now.</p>
<p>BTW: I am not advocating being hostile to the new in-law. I’m just saying that once they are married, the obligation of the parents to support the kid is over. If my kid’s plan was to marry and live in my basement, I would tell them to think again. However, if they fell on hard times and needed a place to stay between jobs, then the door is open as long as I saw them out every day hustling for ANY job that would support them.</p>
<p>If they want the “rights” that come with marriage, then they are also entitled to the “responsibilities”. If they settle down financially to the point that they can support themselves, I might be inclined to offer tuition assistance to help her finish college. Just be aware, that it might cause marital problems if she is earning a degree and he is not.</p>
<p>Agree that a professional can help here. Mom and Dad should go asap even if daughter is unwilling.</p>
<p>I see three issues here:
1- parents long term relationship with D
2-D’s ability to be a productive member of society-- i.e. able to support herself and family if something happens to H (disabled, dies, divorces) or just contribute either monetarily or otherwise if H is the breadwinner
3- respecting boundaries- parents to children, children to parents, inlaws, etc.</p>
<p>I think a counselor can help the parents act in a way that doesn’t cut of their noses to spite their faces. I can’t imagine a scenario where the D isn’t better off with a college degree, even if it means the parents having to grit their teeth and put up with a situation they’re miserable about. I can’t imagine the parents being so angry at the D that they’d want a situation where they have no relationship with their future grandkids. I can’t imagine the parents choosing to have the D on public assistance, rather than being able to support herself.</p>
<p>So get thee some professional help. I don’t mean to be callous- but if you get so cranked up about who pays for what, you could end up with your D on food stamps with three kids under the age of 5. Seems to me you’ve lost the “no marriage until you’re done with college” battle, so it’s time to focus on the big picture here and help launch your D into adulthood with a different scenario than the one you had hoped for.</p>
<p>Operadad–I haven’t seen anyone claiming obligation. I’ve never used money as a stick over my kids. I don’t call the tunes on adults; anything I’ve paid towards my kids’ college expenses was without strings.</p>
<p>There are definitely different parenting styles. I wouldn’t send my kid out with a signboard announcing his poor grades (discussed on another thread), but many parents would.</p>
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<p>Many UNIVERSITIES have married student housing–because they have grad students. None of the colleges I know have married student housing, although I’m sure it must exist somewhere: everything exists somewhere.</p>
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<p>Like any other group, there are those who are very strongly involved and those who are not. But Mormonism, especially as practiced in Utah, is a different kettle of fish from the vast majority of other religions in the US. </p>
<p>For example, I personally do not know of any other religion which does not let parents attend the wedding of their child. AFAIK, even religions that require conversion in order to perform the ceremony allow non-adherents to attend. (Maybe Islam…I believe that some forms do not allow non-believers into a mosque.) This is clearly designed to isolate the incomer from their non-believing family and friends and former life.</p>
<p>I’m with garland. It’s not about obligations.</p>
<p>The mom was expecting to pay for her D’s college for four years, hoping to help her D become financially successful. If the D stops attending college after her marriage, I can see the mom not wanting to pay; but I don’t see a good reason to withhold college funds if the D gets married and yet continues to attend college except to teach the D a painful reason about parental control. This is what “who pays the piper gets to choose the tune”: control, not love or support.</p>
<p>I got married while my wife and I were still in school - she was a sophomore and I was a junior. Our parents had been providing some minimal support which they continued to do until I graduated and had a “real job”. 24 years later and still going strong, it obviously was the right thing for us.</p>
<p>Having said that, I obviously come into this with a bias towards paying - which I would do. I would put a string on the payment - my child would have to be going to school full time. While I wouldn’t do this, I could see some parents agreeing to pay specific bills rather than sending them a check - e.g. I’ll pay the apartment rent, the tuition, and/or the phone bill directly to the company/college.</p>
<p>What I would avoid at all cost is losing my connection to my child. If the person he or she is marrying is that big of a loser, why would I want to isolate my son or daughter. If anything, they need to know, now more than ever, that I am there for them. </p>
<p>As for the religious aspects of the relationship, I don’t see a heck of a lot of choice - so I would simply say that I’d like to be included where I can be and god bless…</p>
<p>I do have to say that my mouth would be bleeding from chomping down to avoid saying anything - but ya gotta do what you gotta do…</p>
<p>Consolation – I agree, isolating a child from his/her parents is extreme. My heart goes out to OP.</p>
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<p>OOS Mormons are VERY different from the ones living in Utah. It is a generalization, I know, but frequently Mormons moving to Utah can’t stand it.</p>
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<p>How should I put it - expected volunteerism? Dare to say no to volunteering?</p>
<p>Part of being a parent is seeing your children learn through difficulties, that you could have made easier.
It isn’t any easier in my experience for the parent to watch.
Deciding that you are ready to begin an eternal journey/marriage with another adult- is something that has been discussed and thought about. </p>
<p>Especially when you are marrying someone who is from a different background & religion than your family of origin, that is making a clear statement of who you are, which is a clear sign to me, that you want to be treated as an independent adult, with your own goals and values.</p>
<p>I feel that even though parents may think they " know better" and may wish to keep their child tied to them through financial if not emotional obligations, I see that as a way to stay in their role as provider and the child as dependent.</p>
<p>If the financial costs were the result of an emergency, rather than something that is being planned out, I would be more likely to find a way to help if I could. </p>
<p>Say if their first born requires extensive medical treatment that insurance does not completely cover. ( as ours did to the tune of almost $100,000 that ins didn’t cover. Neither of our parents helped, but my grandparents did what they could)</p>
<p>I would also, ( if I could) give them a gift to begin their life together just as I would if they married 10 years later. But for our family, not having the child as a tax dependent- would make subsidizing their college education much more difficult financially.</p>
<p>I agree that the LDS church is supportive of their community and I am sure that especially in Utah, they will find enough resources in that community to permit them to succeed.</p>
<p>However, my experience in my own family has been that the LDS church divides the family into " believers & Gentiles", that their prescription against therapy in lieu of their own non professional counsel has been very harmful to people that I care about- but I do agree that just as with the Catholic church, not everyone follows every dictum.</p>
<p>A good friend and his wife for example- are technically Mormon, as they still belong to the church, but do not go to temple, or do conversion prayers for the dead & other rituals therein & they drink coffee and alcohol!!!</p>
<p>Stupid Question coming up: If they get married and are therefore independent, wouldn’t their EFCs go down significantly?</p>
<p>I would be crushed if one of my daughters married a practicing mormon. Just as I would if she moved to Saudi Arabia and married a mullah. Just crushed. I would wonder how I had failed to inculcate her with the belief that she was the equal to any man she could choose.</p>
<p>But, I would continue to support her education.</p>
<p>Just a little more background. The parents of this student would never let the student drop of out school. They are angry, hurt, devastated etc but will always put her best interest first. They sat down with them as a couple months ago to see where this relationship was headed and told them how important it was for them for her to finish school and not marry until she was done. They both agreed and then sprung this on them 2 months later. Although they don’t like this guy they would never risk losing their relationship with their daughter/grandkids and will no doubt help them if necessary. But 2 days after she announced they were getting married in July and they said well ok, you are now an adult, expect to be responsible for a lot more financially she asked if they could buy her contact lenses for the year because she knows she won’t be able to afford them on her own. They also told her she’d need to switch the phone over to his plan and she said they couldn’t afford it. This is clearly a kid who doesn’t understand what is involved financially, emotionally, etc. If she would wait 2 years they would be a lot more accepting of him and the marriage. As far as the religious aspects, both parents have family members who are LDS practicing and non practicing. They know the good and bad of the religion. </p>
<p>Queen’s mom-no change in aid, married or not. They only qualify for loans. The school is relatively cheap compared to other places/states. Too much incom for pell, school doesn’t give out much aid. </p>
<p>Kelowna-Amen to your post. I know mormons who came here and left because it was too much for them. It’s hard to describe if you don’t live here. In general they are great people with a lot of wonderful values.</p>
<p>As far as the above state stats. I don’t know how much I believe those either. UT has a higher than national average for rape for a state that has a relatively low crime rate. Again I think that’s cultural in that a lot of young girls will report having sex as a rape as they are afraid to tell their parents they drank alcohol and had sex. We go to Vegas and Colorado for abortions and Wyoming to stock up on alcohol. So I don’t know about those numbers either. It really doesn’t matter. It is a great place for kids to grow up and is very family orientated. That’s why I’ve been here for so long as a non mormon. I can tell you though as a mother with a kid the same age here if my daughter told me she was getting married and needed money for contacts but was giving 10% of their income to the church so they can marry in the temple, my head would explode off of my body.</p>
<p>Perhaps a lot of this is cultural. In my situation, when I got married as an undergraduate (and I also went onto grad school too), I don’t see it as “now I am an adult.” I do think that once one graduates from school, THEN one should support themselves (I have a 20 year old D who will graduate this May and our financial support will end). But if parents planned to send their child through college (and in some cases, like mine, through grad school), I don’t see why that would change just because the student is married. The goal to provide them an education is the same. If the child is out on his/her own already from college, then yes, I don’t expect parents to support married (or single) independent adults. But I don’t see why things change in terms of providing an education no matter the marital status. </p>
<p>No, I did not ask my parents for support while I was a married student. My parents offered it. They paid what they would have paid had I just been living with him and not married. They paid for all of my education and support while in school and then we were on our own after we got out of grad school, as it should be. My parents did not have strings attached with whatever they did for me. Likewise, I have no strings attached to doing the same for my kids and supporting their educational choices. </p>
<p>When we married, my husband entered a four year graduate school. His parents agreed to pay for it. However, part way through his grad school, they reneged on that agreement because we had decided not to move to where in-laws lived and to have husband take over father-in-law’s practice (a health profession) when we graduated grad school, as they wanted. In other words, strings were attached. Then, hubby had to take out loans. We did move to a state where neither of us grew up after grad school. Many years later, in-laws paid off those grad school loans that they made hubby take out when he decided not to go into his dad’s practice. </p>
<p>In my family, as well as my husband’s family (and this may be due to our cultural heritage), parents help offspring when and if they can. My parents and my husband’s parents have generously helped us at times…downpayments on a business and a home…support for grandchildrens’ educations and extras for them (trip or program) that we could not otherwise afford. I know I will pay it forward with my kids and grandkids. That doesn’t mean supporting them when they are adults. We are adults and support ourselves. My kids are expected to as soon as they graduate as well. But education was provided and if something else comes up down the line, it is the parent or grandparent’s option to provide "gifts’. The receiver is still a self supporting adult.</p>
<p>*They paid what they would have paid had I just been living with him and not married. They paid for all of my education and support while in school and then we were on our own after we got out of grad school, as it should be. My parents did not have strings attached with whatever they did for me. Likewise, I have no strings attached to doing the same for my kids and supporting their educational choices. *</p>
<p>But for most families- the fact that their child is no longer considered their dependent under financial aid- would make this unfeasible.</p>
<p>Just as I would if she moved to Saudi Arabia and married a mullah. Just crushed</p>
<p>I wouldn’t compare the LDS church to extreme fundamentalist Islam- but I would also be concerned if my daughter ( son also but especially daughter)married someone who was from a country where religious laws were patriarchal, even punitive and where her US citizenship would not be a plus.</p>
<p>( I do not think a mullah, which would be a religous cleric, would marry an American woman, although I guess they do marry- I thought they were more like priests who don’t marry)</p>
<p>But for instance- one of my daughters friends, married a young man from India, who is Hindi. They had a civil wedding in the state where they are going to grad school, they had a ceremony at her mothers house in the US, and had a ceremony at his parents house in India. Some family/friends went to all, but none were excluded.</p>
<p>While Indian culture is very diverse, we are finding with my younger daughters upcoming trip, that it is more conservative in many ways than USA, & that what would be seen as " normal" behavior and appearance of a young American women, may be shocking in some parts of Indian culture, and possibly even dangerous.
( Even with the current trial of the local UW student in Italy, we are finding that being an American citizen, doesn’t mean you have the same rights in another country)</p>
<p>However- govt paperwork wise- India is nothing like Saudi Arabia.
[Ministry</a> move on mixed marriages makes many unhappy](<a href=“http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=119013&d=9&m=2&y=2009&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Kingdom]Ministry”>http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=119013&d=9&m=2&y=2009&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Kingdom)</p>
![http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=119013&d=9&m=2&y=2009&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Kingdom]Ministry](http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=119013&d=9&m=2&y=2009&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Kingdom%5DMinistry){kind=link}
<p>It does sound like the girl- regardless of her religion, is somewhat immature which complicates things.</p>
<p>I may have missed this, I did see where the parents of the young man were in favor, but are they aware that the couple would not be financially independent? How much is the other family able/willing to help?</p>
<p>I know that the LDS church has a good network for jobs/food and emergency funds, but ongoing medical care would probably not be something they cover</p>
<p>( although my BIL does sell insurance- seriously & I do want to say- that during this last period where my husband was on strike for over two months- my BIL was very generous and offered food from his own stores- & from personal experience again, LDS members I have known who were raised in the church- paradoxically seem to be more open minded than converts-
also in one of the links I posted, those in the LDS church who have more education, also seem to be more involved in the church, which I think can be opposite from some other religions)</p>
<p>sorry to throw out so much info- but I find the whole concept of a relatively recent religion with so much controversial history & practices, fascinating.</p>
<p>My sister, while immature ( IMO) married a man who was quite a bit older, already owned a house, etc. She also was just looking for a way of life, that was different than the one she was raised in- she had been preparing her bridal trouseau while she was in high school, before she started dating & even had sewn a christening gown.
From a family that were Unitarian liberals, this was unexpected. ( plus it was the 70’s- how much more rebellious did she need to get?) ;)</p>
<p>But perhaps if this young couple are aware that they are not quite prepared for independent life, they will accept more guidance from their parents- I think that they should at least both talk to the brides family minister as well as the stake president of the groom.</p>
<p>I would be concerned however- and I know this is not any of my business, but if they are devout Mormons, I would worry that children would be soon on the agenda- but the LDS authorities are not against birth control and counsel that it is between " the couples and the Lord".</p>
<p>The daughter is living at school and is presumably busy, but like I am advising my daughter in preparation for her trip ( although she has done all the planning and legwork), I am providing her with resources to do more research .</p>
<p>To the best of their ability, I think the parents could help with giving information about resources- how to find low cost insurance etc.
( plus students are eligible for group insurance through their school & many schools have clinics as well- that can save money- plus they will have a lower EFC, although the school may want to know money that is paid on their behalf)</p>
<p>I don’t think that couples starting out should do so expecting to pay their bills with money from family/friends. If family/friends want to help out, that’s great- if the couple is comfortable with it, but it shouldn’t be part of their budget, because the family/friends, have their own obligations which may come up and put an end to continued financial support. </p>
<p>As we have seen, these days, you can’t even count on long term good jobs being there next year- its not smart to count on " gifts" as ongoing income.</p>
<p>Boy, this is a tough one-and I am sure most of the parents on this site can empathize. This is what I might do, if given this scenario:
!. Reiterate the importance of a college education. To back this up, I would let my DD know we would continue to do what we could to pay for the balance of her college education. We agreed to pay for up to 4 years of undergraduate schooling. If it took her more than 4 years-those expenses would be her responsibility. Grades were not as important as earning a BA or BS.
2. Be honest, and share what financial constraints would come into play if $$ was not also available for the wedding.
3. Share w/DD the sadness in not being able to attend the actual wedding ceremony due to the religions doctrine. Ask if there was some way to be able to have parents involved in something other than just a reception.
4. Try to hold back on expressing my feelings to my DD that a decision like this may be "premature-or-he’s not a member of our religion-or-What are you thinking!!!-or–well you get my point.I would try instead to make myself available to LISTEN as she processes the decisions she has before her, and talk to my DH about what I felt instead. I am hopefull my DD has been given ideas and thoughts as to how to be a productive memeber of society, and this is “her journey”, and will require her to make decisions for herself.
Best of luck to your friend during this time. Her love is what is needed most for her DD-Hang in there! ~APOL-a mom</p>
<p>I am missing something here - if they get married and have little to no income then their EFC should go way down as they would be independent. Perhaps not next year but the year after. </p>
<p>Anyway - sounds like the daughter is a LDS convert? This may be driving a wedge in the child/parent relationship already.
My daughter has a very close friend who is LDS. She is the 5th of 6 kids and the 4 older ones all married around 20, except for the boy who married about a year after his mission. He got back and found a girl. The girls all got great financial aid packages after they married and went to BYU, Uof Utah or BYU Idaho.</p>
<p>The parents have no control over what their 20 year old daughter does - converts to a new religion, gets married at a young age, etc. Perhaps counseling can help them to be gracious and accepting of her choices in life.
It could be worse. Trust me.</p>
<p>My 18 year old has been seeing the same guy since she was 16. She told me she wanted to get married. I told her good. Once you are married you are no longer my dependent and I won’t pay for your school. Have fun. Knowing how serious I am she changed her mind.</p>
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<p>I think people shouldn’t get married until they are adults; someone 18 or older who gets married declares him/herself, to my mind, to be an adult. It’s that person’s choice to don the mantle of adulthood by marrying (if that person isn’t already wearing it through, ya know, something like aging :D). </p>
<p>I don’t know that maturity enters into the picture at all, and I never implied it did. Deciding to get married certainly doesn’t require maturity; living with the decision, however, generally does, and provides, for some, a fabulous opportunity to acquire it.</p>
<p>In any case, if someone is married, he/she has taken on adult responsibilities, including the adult-but-not-a-lot-of-fun task of paying the bills.</p>
<p>They boy’s family is very happy however they don’t financially support him at all which is why he goes to school part-time. He works but is on worker’s comp for a back injury that requires surgery. Surgery was originally scheduled for feb but his dad had a golf tournament on that day and had to reschedule it. Boy’s parents "have a great marriage "however they live in separate homes??? If I had to guess I’d say his family is looking at his girl as adding to his support rather than him supporting her.</p>