<p>Atana, I'm trying to understand your point but I'm afraid you may need to hire a comma consultant before I can figure it out. ;)</p>
<p>Prouddad,
How is Founderscollege an Ayn Rand school? This is first time I've heard this.</p>
<p>It's "founders" base their teachings on Objectivism. Several board members are also members of regional Objectivists groups. There's plenty of evidence and the protestations against the connection seem to be a bit hollow. Try Googling <objectivism "founders="" college"=""> and draw your own conclusions. The art method taught is enough evidence for me, thank you!</objectivism></p>
<p>Here's a good start, if you can stand the rhetoric: <a href="http://www.noumenalself.com/archives/2006/08/founders_colleg_1.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.noumenalself.com/archives/2006/08/founders_colleg_1.html</a></p>
<p>Thanks for the link. The price is high and faculty seems sketchy.</p>
<p>As far as the general observation that there is a credibility problem within college programs, yes. Having worked for several institutions ranging from CC's to graduate schools, it seems to be a substantial problem. Especially in the liberal arts.
Specifically in the humanities the placement rate is simply appalling. MFA's and Doctorates in humanities have a success rate, in the field, of generally less than 10%.<br>
And before the usual opinions about how students shouldn't enter those fields waft out from the ether. What about the fact that academia as a whole has allowed this mess to continue, and has done nothing? Or even listened to some of those in the discipline, who have voiced serious concerns over the situation? Is there the remotest possibility that some view these students as starry eyed cash cows to be led to the slaughter when its of the most profit?
As far as the comma comment, so what. Comments about stylistic trivialities over content, especially in regards to an issue as important as this.. is little more than a entertaining distraction. I'm not going to spend endless hours editing these posts...as I do have other more important obligations...including being involved in the system which I have just cause to criticize. So here's a few extra commas to fill the triviality quota,,,,,,,,,, And anyway, since I work in a state skule, it donut matre, wier alle illigitimate...wait...illiterate...</p>
<p>Atana, what do you mean by "the placement rate is simply appalling." Placement where? Into graduate programs? Finishing graduate programs? 10? success rate for what?</p>
<p>I'd love to understand your post, but I'm confused.</p>
<p>It wasn't the lack of commas. Quite the contrary. ;) Your thoughts were so broken up by pauses (commas) that simply don't occur normally in spoken English that no one can follow what you're saying without editing your work for you. And then we're still not sure we're reading what you intended to say. I'm not a grammar maven, or a pedantic critic. I'm just trying to figure out what point you're trying to make, figuring you must have entered the discussion with something to add. Sorry. I'm just trying to understand you.</p>
<p>It is pretty difficult to read & I admit I don't often follow standardized grammatical parameters, although fragmented sentences are distracting ( and annoying)</p>
<p>I think what he is trying to say ( or at least by implication)- is that those who receive graduate degrees in the humanities , ( unstated is that liberal arts graduate degrees are undertaken by those who aim at academia for a career), have less than 10% success rate in finding something on the tenure track or possibly even to become gainfully employed in their field on a college campus.</p>
<p>I wouldn't blame the schools for that- you get out of it what you put into it, if you haven't developed the sort of skills that make you employable by the time you are 27? 29? with a terminal degree, whose fault is that?</p>
<p>If adult students want to pay for a degree to study mesozoic literature, or Plato's stories of Atlantis, are colleges supposed to discourage them and point them towards the local vocational training center?
Maybe the next new authority on Pliny will find a way to make it essential learning for graduates.
Do we want to discourage that?</p>
<p>"I wouldn't blame the schools for that- you get out of it what you put into it, if you haven't developed the sort of skills that make you employable by the time you are 27? 29? with a terminal degree, whose fault is that?"</p>
<p>emeraldkity4, I'm afraid atana is right on target. Most people enter these programs with the express idea that they will secure academic positions. But there is no way the FT academic labor market can absorb them, and everyone in the business knows it. They work hard, develop academic skills, publish, go into debt, and are basically unemployable--particularly in an environment where colleges are relying more heavily on PT adjuncts (the migrant worker of higher ed) to save money.</p>
<p>Well, if students have their hearts set on particular kinds of jobs after they graduate, they should research beforehand on what the market is for that kind of job and what kind of preparation (including choice of undergraduate college and graduate school) maximizes the chance of getting that job. There are whole books about the career path for lots of different kinds of academics. I just recommended a</a> book about mathematics graduate programs to another parent this week. If a person wants to get a job as an academic, which is a job that involves research, and doesn't research up front, that's a bad sign.</p>
<p>My company loves PhD's. We hire English PhD's for communications roles, we hire quants (any discipline-- physics, engineering, applied math) for risk management and financial roles; we hire social scientists for some pretty diverse positions. However, there is a definite "pecking order" in the candidates we see-- there are post-doc's and new PhD's who have decided that academia is not for them, but who have developed sufficiently rigorous research and analytical skills that we could use them anywhere. Then there are the PhD candidates who have been slogging away at a dissertation for so long that I'm sure even their own mothers are tired of hearing about it. Those folks have a harder time convincing us of the fungibility of their skills-- if the Dissertation on Jane Austen is taking 8 years, how are we to believe that you could operate in a corporate environment where there are deadlines and accountabilities???</p>
<p>But I don't blame the institutions-- caveat emptor. Don't begin a doctoral program unless you've got a burning desire to become the world's leading expert on X, and unless that desire is going to propel you forward to finish the dissertation on a timely basis with a positive outcome (either inside or outside academia.)</p>
<p>New Fulbright Grant Brings Scientists to U.S.
Program aims to improve America's ability to recruit foreign graduate students</p>
<p>By JJ HERMES</p>
<p>Academics and federal officials alike have been wrestling for a while over how to improve the United States' ability to recruit foreign graduate students in science and technology. Now officials at the Fulbright Program are putting money behind that mission with a new grant to bring international Ph.D. students to the United States.</p>
<p>This fall 29 students from 27 countries began graduate studies supported by a new International Fulbright Science and Technology Award. Each Ph.D. student will receive $160,000 in federal support for their studies, as well as a five-year student visa.</p>
<p>Is it just me or does this seem wrong somehow? American students can't afford to go to college -- but our tax dollars are paying for scholarships for foreign students? Can someone explain this to me?</p>
<p>We want the smartest people in the world studying on the US, then working in the US. We want them to become US citizens.</p>
<p>Americans go abroad on Fulbrights, so this is a two-way street. If the international students stay here (as might well be inclined to do), that's "brain drain" in our favor.</p>
<p>tokenadult, have you read the math book you linked? What kind of gpas do students need to get into these programs? GRE scores?</p>
<p>Blossom, does your company hire people with 4 year degrees for risk management postions? Or only people with graduate degrees and phds?</p>
<p>We look for graduate degrees for risk management; person doesn't need a Master's in risk management.... applied math is great, econ with a heavy dose of econometrics is great, Master's in Financial Engineering is great.</p>
<p>Momzie-- my company is looking for statisticians. I don't believe we've interviewed anyone yet who is US born. It has become increasingly difficult to get visas for non-US citizens, and quite time consuming and expensive, but we do it because we have no choice. I've been told by the hiring managers that the college kids with the right educational training all want to go work for a Hedge fund and make a million dollars their first year...nobody wants to work for a company that actually makes something and make... gee, I don't know, less than a million dollars? The job requires a BS, but we have foreign born PhD candidates who have stellar qualfications in math and programming who are interested.</p>
<p>I agree that something is whacky with this picture, but what are you going to do? Dozens of companies in a wide range of industries need statisticians... pharma, airlines, credit cards, insurance, all branches of the US government including the FAA, postal service, Health and Human services, etc. What are you going to do when nobody born here wants those jobs????</p>
<p>The Mathematician's Survival Guide? Yeah, I read it and really like it for its frankness and sense of humor. Having the right undergraduate courses and a relationship with some undergrad teacher who can attest to your math ability is very important for math graduate school. The GRE test scores are high for everybody applying; a low score screens you out, but a high school isn't a guarantee of getting into a good program. A summer REU experience would be very important.</p>
<p>Referring back to posts 13-15, my town is like Blossom's. Most kids drive very nice cars to high school, and it seems like everybody spends lots of money on "things". We have high test scores, yet 60% of this year's class went to a public in-state college. Most parents don't want to spend the money on a private school.</p>
<p>My husband and I still live in our starter house, drive our cars forever, and don't even have cable tv. We are spending $200,000 for our son's education while we're living in a house we paid $73,000 for. Lots of relatives think we're nuts. For us, his education is more important than "things".</p>
<p>Tokenadult, and Blossom. Thanks. Informative posts. </p>
<p>Statisticians? Hmmm.</p>
<p>"I've been told by the hiring managers that the college kids with the right educational training all want to go work for a Hedge fund and make a million dollars their first year...nobody wants to work for a company that actually makes something and make... gee, I don't know, less than a million dollars?"</p>
<p>Hopefully this will change for the good of the country.</p>