College tuition up over 6%..very few people pay the top private school tuition

Parents Forum
101

<p>My son is likely to study some of those million-dollar-hedge-fund subjects in college. Whether he becomes a schoolteacher, a college professor-researcher, an industrial manager, or a hedge fund millionaire, I will be proud of him and think he is doing something good for the country. I know of one example of a hedge fund millionaire (well, I don't know SPECIFICALLY that he made a million dollars, but I know he retired in his thirties) who now teaches young people math through a nonprofit</a> he founded. That's cool. It's possible to have more than one career after college. </p>

<p>See also </p>

<p><a href="http://paulgraham.com/notnot.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://paulgraham.com/notnot.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

102

<p>MomofChris,
I'm another one paying full freight for same college as your S, while driving old car and doing without. Honestly, it seems everyone from my area attends the state colleges. I can count on one hand the kids I know who left the state. (In all honesty, it grandparents hadn't died and left money in S's name, he would have received some financial aid.)</p>

<p>I have seen shift in goals, with money as a factor. Being an actuarial or statistian doesn't sound exciting to a 21 y.o. Grad school feels like a long road for uncertain future. Dreams of being a college prof have disappeared when faced with the reality of how difficult obtaining a good position will be.</p>

103

<p>Honestly, I am just not willing to pay $180,000 of after tax income for college. I believe that that is too high a price to pay for what the student receives.</p>

104

<p>But what if $180,000 out of pocket buys educational expenditures on your child's behalf of $400,000? </p>

<p><a href="http://www.collegeresults.org/search1b.aspx?y=2005&grt=3&institutionID=130794&peer=15&cat=Main&sortc=Student+Related+Expenditures+%2f+FTE&sortd=DESC%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeresults.org/search1b.aspx?y=2005&grt=3&institutionID=130794&peer=15&cat=Main&sortc=Student+Related+Expenditures+%2f+FTE&sortd=DESC&lt;/a> </p>

<p>I don't know any other way to get that rate of return over four years.</p>

105

<p>You don't get that rate of return. </p>

<p>If I invest $50,000 in something and somebody matches me and invests $50,000 for me, so now I have $100,000 invested, that is not a rate of return.</p>

<p>I could lose the whole thing. ;)</p>

106

<p>Educational expenditures. It would be really interesting to see this broken down, token.</p>

<p>How does my student realize this rate of "educational" return when it is impossible for him to take advantage of every expenditure. What % of these expenditures really impact him and his education. Does the $100 million dollar new CS building benefit my student if he is a lit. major? Is the prof. who is paid $200,000 a year really a better teacher than the one who is paid $100,000? Are the new posh digs that Yale is looking at really needed for my student to get an excellent education? </p>

<p>What exactly does an undergraduate need in order to get an excellent education? Does an increase in educational expenditures equate to an equal # of opportunities for my student or is it (at some point) just adding more bells and whistles?</p>

107

<p>The testimony I hear from parents is that the Yale experience really is different from the experience at, say, my alma mater. There is that issue of getting in in the first place, but I wouldn't discourage any child of mine who got in from attending as long as I knew the child had read up on each college and decided on grounds that make sense FOR THAT CHILD to attend Yale rather than alma mater.</p>

108

<p>If I paid $180,000 for son to go to college I would HAVE to believe he got a better education than elsewhere. Perceived better rate of return or major psychological dissonance.:)</p>

109

<p>What I mean by "the testimony I hear from parents" is that the parents describe specific college experiences unlike those anyone has at my alma mater. I'm not just talking about the global evaluation the parents give Yale--which is quite good--but rather about specific, factual, verifiable doings and acquaintanceships with faculty members and fellow students that many young people aspire to as part of the college experience, which are beyond the experience of most students. I hear the same kind of reports from parents of Harvard, Stanford, MIT, and other "peer" college students.</p>

110

<p>Token, I'm not going down that road.:)</p>

<p>I am in the full pay bracket. I could pay $45,000 but I choose not to. I do not believe the value is there. I may be the only one on CC but there are others out there like myself who have reached the cost for value line.</p>

111

<p>Sax, Yale owns a Guttenberg bible. I love old books and even I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason how or why the presence of the bible (in a museum which is free, by the way, any school kid in New Haven can walk right in and see it on display) is going to improve the rate of return on a kid's education at Yale. But-- take the Guttenberg, and all the other archives and libraries on campus, and the brand new labs on Science Hill, and the art museums, and the rep theater, and the school of architecture, and the cutting edge research on children's brains at the med school-- and it makes for a place which is stimulating to be in, even for a student that takes advantage of none of it. Are the professors better because they make more money? I doubt it. Are they better because leaders in their fields like to be associated with other leaders, who like to live and work in places which invest in preserving the intellectual capital of civilization? Perhaps. Can you have a top law school without a museum of British Art? Absolutely-- but other than prestige, there is something that keeps Yale's Law school near the top of virtually every ranking system-- maybe it's the university's ability to hire virtually anyone they want, due to its proximity to all these other wonderful amenities.</p>

<p>Now I think it's a tragic waste for a student NOT to take advantage of virtually all of it-- but I also don't think that the millions that the university could raise by selling the Bible could be put to a better use than owning and protecting the book itself and making it available to anyone who wants to see it. Yes-- they could vaccinate millions of kids from Malaria with the money they could raise by selling the Guttenberg to a collector who will keep it under lock and key. Or, they keep the book, get happy alums to donate millions to the school of public health, and figure out better ways to vaccinate those kids.</p>

112

<p>Agree with tokenadult.
I attended my state's flagship and had 2 conversations with one prof. over 4 years. I admit I wasn't proactive. But nobody I knew was either. Maybe today's generation is different, but we took this as normal. I also remember that there was one pay phone on our (very long) dorm floor. It didn't get much use. Who would you call? Why?
My daughter is a first year at her elite private. One class with 10 students, one with 12 (with one-on-one meetings with the prof to supplement), and a double class with 30 students, and 11 in her preceptorials taught by a prof. Two, and maybe three of the lecturers in her "double" class have been the top individuals in the world in their subjects. The first week of classes there was a woman in her dorm showing two people around. My daughter invited the lady and her guests into her room. It was the president of the university.
But an easy choice of attendance from a financial point of view. Need based financial aid covers tuition and a bit more.
Yes, I feel blessed. And so does my daughter.</p>

113

<p>sax--</p>

<p>I'm in your shoes--full pay wherever</p>

<p>Harvard at $45,000 or McDaniel for $25,000 with merit aid? I'd scrape up the money for Harvard.</p>

<p>But Dickinson for $45,000 versus the same McDaniel? Not a chance.</p>

114

<p>Sax, I attended honors program at large U, rathr than the EA "ELITE" school. I had a good education, met with great profs, got 100% acceptance at grad schools. It was never a good fit. I wanted more for my S. He was self-motivated, studying math, physics, Latin, on his own. He got into several tech schools. He is truly surrounded by peers.</p>

<p>I suspect my S will keep in touch with college friends, attend alumni events, and contribute to his college. I don't think he would have been fulfilled at state U or an NMF school. Only time will tell.</p>

115

<p>The placement rate runs about 30% of those who apply to get into Phd/MFA humanities programs. I apologize for not being specific but in my field that's common knowledge. The reason that it is appalling is that in quite a few of these programs the actual standards and ultimately the educational credibility of the degrees is nowhere close to all the hype about entry. For example, I ran an arts oriented private business and virtually nothing from the years spent on collecting all those lovely letters I possess were relevent. And that is not an uncommon condition as these programs do tend to do little to provide students with a base to be economically viable once the degrees are tossed out. And the problem is compounded because these degrees are sold as tickets to academia which simply is not that common of an end result.
Having operated in the aforementioned arts related business environment at least there's some reference point from which I can tell them the reality is very different from what's being promoted. Problem is that many who wish to do just that cannot because of institutional pressures. These pressures are so intense that these often negate efforts for internal reform or in some cases even open discussion. And at some schools there are even tensions resulting about telling the truth about the risks inherent to advanced sudies in the humanities. Not to mention the horrors involved when the enrollment dips. It upsets the numbers game.
Some of the conditions which cause the very disturbing ultimate success rate of less than 10%, can't be justifed given the excessive costs for these type of degrees. If these degrees were in law, medicine, or other fields the situation would not have been tolerated. Accordingly I wonder about the ultimate motivations of the collegiate system in regards to this particular situation. As do others including an increasing number of students.
And ethically for those of us in the field who have 'made it'...its a uneasy place within which to operate. How much good does it do to advise students to take care and maybe not fall under the spell of the hype? When that hype is so powerfully marketed and so prevelant within the system itself?</p>

116

<p>I admit I didn't attend a 4 year college, and so this whole thing was very new to us. I did hear about people hiring college advisors, but when you don't have the money to spend- that isn't even a consideration.</p>

<p>While I hadn't discovered CC at that point, teh net was a big wonderful world and I had Googlefu skilz. D wanted to attend an arts school, she was very talented but common sense told us that as she was also interested in the sciences, it is a little easier to do "art" on the side, than lab work ;)
We did give a cursory glance to local art schools, however quite a few are for profit and anyone who doesn't have an inflated view of their own talent can quickly see through the smoozing to what Atana is referencing.
I don't know of any artists who would rather spend more time in the dept office than in the studio however.</p>

<p>I also am not familiar with art schools that are more expensive than a professional degree in medicine or law.
A friend attended RISD for example, and while it is an expensive school, it is quite demanding in admission and still only 4 years.</p>

<p>While just like any business has unscrupulous people, I don't think universities should bear the brunt of students and parents who get caught up in perceived prestige, and pay less attention to value added, but then are angry when their reality doesn't match their expectations.</p>

117

<p>Unfortunately there is the added complication of the current financial shell game used within the educationl finance industry. So, yes these degrees may not cost as much initially as a law degree or MD. But it's not uncommon when the excessive fees, sales of loans etc are applied for the numbers to reach the same level as more credible degrees.
And yes some do see through the amoozing, but often remain within the discipline. Either because of personal belief that they can surmount the obstacles or because its too late to back out without a perceived loss of money already spent.
And perhaps the universities should not bear the brunt of anger from students who've been engaged in this situation. But neither should they be exempt from the proper criticism. These programs have been in place for years, and the situation for the end result has not changed. Which is a disturbing implication, as many insitutions do track the success rate of former students. And those disturbing numbers do not seem to provide an impetus for the credible revision of these curriculums.
If you search the Time and Newsweek archives, along with the Chronicle of Higher Education there have been numerous articles noting the problem with credibility in this discipline. Now if this situation where within some fly by night tech school it would still be scandalous. But the situation with the aforementioned MFA Phd's and the humanities is these are clearly within the established collegiate system. And as such it is an indictment of the university culture that this prioblem has been permitted to continue with no real attempts at remedy.</p>

118

<p>this thread is getting off course from OP but I am trying to figure out exactly what you are complaining about.
Are we talking about students who are recieving degrees in art who expect to be made professors? I don't think any school, in any discipline can promise students with any credibility that they will be guaranteed a job in academia. By perusing the college offerings, potential students can decide if the course schedule is likely to give them the education and experience they are looking for, & if the college is promising instruction by artists that never materialize, that is sure misrepresentation, but I don't see it any differently than anything else that is sold in this culture. Look at the massive amounts of bankruptcies because homeowners took out loans that they couldn't pay for to access "free money".</p>

<p>Art students at least can work in their field without special funding, students in the disciplines of chem/bio/physics aren't likely to be off on their own and require backing.
The arts as a field- require flexibility to make a living.
Putting in your dues, doesn't mean spending money to get a Phd in art. I don't know anyone who has that although I do know several very successful artists and quite a few with MFA's.
Many artists & musicians teach to have money coming in until they pay their dues and figure out a salable niche.
I don't see anything wrong with that. Teaching can be quite rewarding and frankly some artists can teach but they can't * do* , or perhaps they haven't found their medium.</p>

<p>I do see in the Chronicle for Higher ed scandals in the for profit school industry.

[quote]
Time was running out. It was just days before the 2004 spring quarter was to start, and administrators at American InterContinental University's campus here were struggling to meet the enrollment targets set for them by the for-profit college's corporate parent.</p>

<p>The goal was to have more than 350 new "starts" for the term. That meant that the college's recruiters needed to sign up that many students, put together financial-aid packages for them, and make sure they remained enrolled for at least five straight weekdays.</p>

<p>That objective remained elusive, however, and desperate times called for desperate measures. So Steven E. Tartaglini, the college's president, made a plea to the institution's full-time faculty and staff members. If they pitched in and helped the institution achieve 351 starts, then "the Complete Campus goes to Disneyland for the entire day on a Friday in May as my guests!" he wrote in an e-mail message that March. "You will even get paid as if it was a normal workday — all while you're having fun!"</p>

<p>Noting that "Starts are EVERYONE's responsibility," he pressed the professors to contact former students with whom they had formed "a good bond" and encourage them to return to AIU to pursue graduate degrees.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But don't people do their own research? Pick up a current course schedule, go into the college bookstore to see course requirements, talk to current students as well as use the frigging internet!</p>

<p>Art schools are competitive I realize, & many don't have the skills to produce the requisite portfolio for admissions. But if students are applying to a range of schools, and the only ones that even accept them are for profit and they are full of praise for their talents, why wouldn't students stop and wonder what the admission officers are really full of?</p>

119

<p>Atana, I believe the bulge in PhD's was initially caused by all the kids who had low lottery numbers back during the Viet Nam war and were going to be sent overseas if they were drafted. So they had a choice-- flee to Canada, serve, or get an educational deferment in the hopes that by the time they finished their program the war would be over. The U's were certainly complicit in allowing the expansion of all these degree programs.... but not to blame. When you were in school did you know a single PhD in education? Even the superintendent of my large, well regarded school system had only a Master's degree. Did your school system employ a single PhD in "Secondary school counseling"? Mine didn't... but the town I live in has several.</p>

<p>So we have supply-- kids who then wanted to avoid the draft, and kids now who don't have clear career aspirations who hope that 2 or 3 or 6 years on grad school will help them figure it out-- and we have demand-- the various social services agencies and public sector employers who now require an advanced degree where none was required before, and you've bloated the system beyond recognition. I don't know that the U's themselves are doing more than responding to what society is asking for.</p>

<p>Many of my family members are school teachers. The ones now in their 20's and 30's are grossly overqualified compared to the ones in their 50's and 60's... and by their own admission, most of the Master's programs were a waste of time. Who really needs, "techniques in physical education pedagogy" in order to be an 8th grade math teacher? But the system requires a master; you get a raise with each credit you take that gets you closer to a doctorate (not subject matter... in ed, counseling, special ed, ed administration) and so why not???</p>

120

<p>I have no problem if we move off topic.</p>

<p>Blossom asked why not?</p>

<p>My answer is because it is not really necessary to do the job. We may have people who would consider being teachers, look at what they have to do and choose another field.</p>