<p>
[quote]
One thing not addressed in the Williams article cited in post #271, is the impact of internet learning on the whole picture. I wouldn't be surprised if internet college degrees are the wave of the future in higher education.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't think "internet teaching" marks a fundamental shift. After all, it's just a further extension of the huge lecture format product. In both cases, the goal is to reduce the faculty overhead required to teach "x" number of students.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I get the sense that some are using the term "education" to mean nothing beyond sitting in a classroom.
[/quote]
Not at all, idad. That's much, much too narrow. But I agree that "everything a college decides to spend money on" is much too broad.</p>
<p>Sometimes a lack of name recognition by JQ Public is a measure of prestige.</p>
<p>"The cost of production is the cost of production. Decisions about whether to include leather seats or a power moonroof are product feature decisions. Some customers prefer moonroofs. Some prefer leather seats."</p>
<p>And in the end, they both end up in the dump.</p>
<p>I think it is ridiculous to count everything a school spends as educational costs and then when tuition doesn't cover the total cost, to say, "Look. I got a subsidy". Whatever.</p>
<p>"You are wording your questions in such a restrictive way that makes giving you a yes or no answer difficult. I would certainly say that academic prestige is a major feature of Swarthmore's product."</p>
<p>I'm not used to people in this board admitting that a major feature of a school is prestige, academic or any other kind.</p>
<p>I think prestige is a good thing.</p>
<p>Notre Dame is raising tuition over 5%:</p>
<p>"The Rev. John I. Jenkins, Notre Dame's president, said in a letter to returning students that the rising costs of health insurance, utilities, the wages of 4,000 school employees and technological changes were the primary reasons for the increase."</p>
<p>I have no idea how these rising costs give students a better academic experience.</p>
<p>It doesn't matter because most of the kids who go to this school are probably in the top 3% of household income in this country and have families that have made a ton of money in the stock market. :)</p>
<p>More subsidies for everyone. :)</p>
<p>"I can't imagine anyone earning $60k a year would be willing to argue that a Williams education "costing" $75k is worth four University of Podunk educations."</p>
<p>Apparently, thousands of people might. And US News and World Report recognizes that the Williams education is a darn good value at that:</p>
<p>"Liberal Arts Colleges: Best Values 2007</p>
<p>1 Williams College (MA)<br>
2 Amherst College (MA)<br>
3 Wellesley College (MA)<br>
4 Skidmore College (NY)<br>
5 Pomona College (CA)<br>
6 Swarthmore College (PA)<br>
7 Middlebury College (VT)<br>
8 Bowdoin College (ME)<br>
9 Macalester College (MN)<br>
10 Grinnell College (IA)<br>
11 College of the Atlantic (ME)<br>
12 Colgate University (NY)<br>
13 Colorado College<br>
14 Wabash College (IN)<br>
15 Carleton College (MN)<br>
16 Claremont McKenna College (CA)<br>
17 Smith College (MA)<br>
18 Centre College (KY)<br>
19 Wesleyan University (CT)<br>
20 Haverford College (PA)<br>
21 Colby College (ME)<br>
22 Bryn Mawr College (PA)<br>
23 Lyon College (AR)<br>
24 Wells College (NY)<br>
25 Vassar College (NY)<br>
26 Lafayette College (PA)<br>
27 Hanover College (IN)<br>
28 Agnes Scott College (GA)<br>
29 Mount Holyoke College (MA)<br>
30 Harvey Mudd College (CA)<br>
31 Furman University (SC)<br>
32 Occidental College (CA)<br>
33 Scripps College (CA)<br>
34 Hamilton College (NY)<br>
35 Beloit College (WI)<br>
36 Thomas Aquinas College (CA)<br>
37 Lake Forest College (IL)<br>
38 Barnard College (NY)<br>
39 Bates College (ME)<br>
40 Kenyon College (OH)"</p>
<p>US News has an agenda to sell magazine and internet subscriptions, and uses dubious methodology to compose lists to do so. It's "best value" list is created by inventing an artificial tuition -- a "net" cost figured by averaging out what students pay when financial aid is taken into account. The problem is that no student pays the "average" -- each student's aid package is individually determined. So basically the "best value" list becomes a reward for the colleges with the highest endowments and the greatest ability to fund financial aid. Since US News also rewards higher-endowed colleges with higher rankings in its general methodology, this "best value" scheme has the impact of simply promoting the same colleges that are gaining prestige via the rankings. </p>
<p>The fallacy is obvious for a full pay or high EFC family -- if your EFC is $42K, what's a better value? A college with a $33K tuition that you will have to pay in full? Or a similar college with $28K tuition? </p>
<p>It makes no sense in my mind to use an artificially discounted tuition to provide a qualitative judgment as to "value" -- for one thing, it is of no help whatsoever to a family trying to find an affordable college. The list gives no indication whatsoever of which colleges have the highest tuition and costs, what the financial aid policies are, whether need-based aid is guaranteed, what criteria are applied in calculating aid, or whether merit aid is available.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Not at all, idad. That's much, much too narrow. But I agree that "everything a college decides to spend money on" is much too broad.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It's certainly too broad for research universities. For example, I don't know that the money Harvard spends on the medical school has any impact on undergraduate education. I don't know that the money Emory spends operating a chain of hospitals and physicians practices impacts undergrad education.</p>
<p>However, I can point to virtually no instances of liberal arts college spending that doesn't contribute to the overall undergrad experience. Even in cases when I disagree with the spending priorities (Williams' $6 million athletic budget), I would readily agree that the spending does contribute to the overall undergrad experience at that school. I wouldn't object in the least to including that money in calculating the per student cost. With just a few exceptions, I'm simply not aware of spending at any liberal arts college that doesn't contribute to the quality of the undergrad experience in one way or another (whether I agree with a particular spending priority or not).</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm not used to people in this board admitting that a major feature of a school is prestige, academic or any other kind.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>99% of the posts on College Confidential are asking about prestige in one way or another. "What's the best economics department?" Yadda yadda.</p>
<p>I think it's very helpful to understand the historic correlation between "prestige" and "per student spending" or "per student endowment". It takes some of the mystery out of college rankings.</p>
<p>"However, I can point to virtually no instances of liberal arts college spending that doesn't contribute to the overall undergrad experience."</p>
<p>How about retirement condos?</p>
<p>"
Similar [condo] projects are under way at about a dozen other institutions nationwide, including the University of Connecticut in Storrs; the University of Notre Dame; Furman University in Greenville, S.C., where a retirement community on campus is being planned; and Hampshire College in Amherst, Mass., where construction will begin soon on 120 condominium apartments on campus for working people and retirees.</p>
<p>“It’s part of a pattern of colleges and universities realizing that they have elements that are appealing to a population far broader than 18- to 25-year-olds,” said Ralph J. Hexter, president of Hampshire College. “It’s often said of a college education, ‘It’s a shame it’s wasted on the young.’ ”The distinctive marks of many of these campuses are shops, restaurants, offices and housing that, together, create a destination. The idea is to produce street life and to promote social interaction.</p>
<p>Nearly all of these developments are being built by institutions with vast tracts of unused land; officials hope to take advantage of that asset to help build endowments. Generally, these are also institutions that are not looking to expand significantly the size of their student bodies.
"</p>
<p>"The list gives no indication whatsoever of which colleges have the highest tuition and costs, what the financial aid policies are, whether need-based aid is guaranteed, what criteria are applied in calculating aid, or whether merit aid is available."</p>
<p>This information may be available in the USNWR "Premium Online Edition," to which I don't subscribe.</p>
<p>As for the condo developments, my strong suspicion is that those projects are projected to be either revenue neutral and a plus for the campus community or generate positive returns as an endowment investment. They may or may not work out that way, but I would be very surprised if the colleges go into them planning to dump operating dollars into them.</p>
<p>I've been following a smaller scale development proposal at Swarthmore that's been under discussion for several years: a multi-use inn, restaurant, and retail development on college property. They've spent a couple of years getting town referenda passed for the necessary zoning and liquor license. But, they don't plan to procede unless they find an established development partner. The college will provide a 99 year lease on the property, but will not bear the responsibility or risk for operating expenses.</p>
<p>Hampshire states that they are hoping to make money on their project, which is being developed by an outside firm. They have a very small endowment ($39 million or $30,000 per student) that only contributes $1 million or $798 per student to operating expenses. They are highly dependent on net tuition and student charges ($26,200 per student) to cover the lion's share of their operating expenses ($33,589 per student). For dstark's sake, that's a total "subsidy" of $7,300. Compare to Smith down the road that charges maybe a couple thousand more and provides a $30,000 per student subsidy. There's your "prestige" right there.</p>
<p>I could go to Hampshire, but I could never go to Smith.</p>
<p>OK. Amherst then. </p>
<p>I finally got my hands on their financial report and have been meaning to enter it in my little handy dandy subsidy calculator spreadsheet. I expect their subisidy to look an awful lot like Williams' and Swarthmore's -- $40,000+ between per student costs and per student net revenues.</p>
<p>Well, maybe you will get lucky next year and Swat will raise their costs $20 million and only raise tuition $10 million. Then Swat can pull well ahead of Amherst and Williams in the subsidy race. :)</p>
<p>Nah. I'm hoping they match Princeton's oh so sincere gesture of freezing tuition (and only raising room and board 19%).</p>
<p>"Nah. I'm hoping they match Princeton's oh so sincere gesture of freezing tuition (and only raising room and board 19%)."</p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>Prestige is often nothing more than the the horse and rider logo on the polo shirt that comes at a steep price. The shirt doesn't keep you any warmer, or cooler. It projects an image and people will pay to project that image. I can buy a similar shirt for less, often far less, that gives me the same look and feel of a polo shirt, but without the price tag.</p>
<p>The challenge to finding value in a college, at least to my family, is to find a good program, not school necessarily, that can deliver a top-notch education. This can mean schools that have low tuition to begin with, or state universities with honors programs, or schools with generous merit scholarships. Penn State has a highly regarded honors program. For PA residents, and even non-residents, this can provide and outstanding eduacation but without the cost or an embossed horse and rider on the diploma - and merit aid is available. There are other universities offering classical liberal arts programs with merit scholarships available, but you may have to go to Alabama or Texas to attend them. They students entering these honors programs have impressive credentials.</p>
<p>The recent Peter Pan peanut butter recall was an eye-opener to me. Why? Because not only was a particular lot of Peter Pan recalled, but Great Value peanut butter of the same lot number was also recalled. Great Value is Walmart's brand and is exactly the same for better, or worse in this case, than Peter Pan. As a consumer I can get Peter Pan quality at Great Value prices. Comparing the quality of college is not like comparing the the quality of peanut butter, but one can discover great values relative to the ivies or elite LACs. That's why I have spent considerably more time investigating colleges and their costs than on peanut butter research. But that is because I will buy just one ugrad college education per child, whereas I have bought, and will continue to buy, many jars of peanut butter. I can let experience be my guide, when buying peanut butter, in a way that I never could with a one-time purchase.</p>
<p>Buying prestige is expensive and to those on a budget (40K-92K) with intelligent kids it makes sense to investigate the alternatives.</p>
<p>standrews, which schools do you like? Which schools have the value, but not necessarily the name?</p>
<p>I like the peanut butter story.</p>
<p>dstark,</p>
<p>My oldest will likely be an NM finalist. His PSAT score is certainly high enough. No Ivies or NE LACs are on his list. Davidson is probably the school with the best reputation on the list. There are a number of schools with fairly attractive honors programs and full tuition (or more) for NMFs.
VCU - includes guaranteed entry to med school (not interested in being a doctor though)
Alabama
Birmingham Southern
Baylor
South Carolina
Florida (has scaled back their merit aid)
Penn State (very good but not much merit aid for out of staters)</p>
<p>A lot of these schools are trying to build their reputations. It's hard when the general student population has a median SAT in the 1100 range, but the honors programs are often closer to 1400, have smaller classes, better faculty (no grad asst.), special dorms, priority scheduling.</p>
<p>USNRW ratings are backward looking and are largely a reflection of the incoming quality of the student. Do good reputations attract good students or do good students make good reputations? Or are both self-perpetuating? It takes a long time to build, or lose, a reputation. Initially, my oldest only had one of the schools on the list above as a safety: VCU, we live in Virginia. The VCU honors program makes it a more attractive safety, and it is definitely a financial safety should NMF status be conferred next year. I doubt he will apply to more than 2 of these type of schools.</p>