Colleges for Bright Kids Who Don't Look Great On Paper?

College Search & Selection
1

<p>I enjoyed this dad's reflections on his son's college search and application process: [url=<a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-schwartz/low-down-dirt-poor-hands_b_158775.html%5DPeter"&gt;http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-schwartz/low-down-dirt-poor-hands_b_158775.html]Peter&lt;/a> Schwartz: Low-Down, Dirt-Poor, Hands-to-Heaven College Application Parental Blues<a href="Note%20the%20College%20Confidential%20mention,%20too%20:">/url</a> )</p>

<p>Certainly many of us, both parents and students, can empathize with Peter Schwartz's concerns about his son, "Daniel," when he says: " ... he is just the sort of student who has almost no chance of getting into the schools where he would thrive, grow, and achieve the happiness toward which he strives."</p>

<p>Daniel's rejection at Yale comes as no surprise of course. So here's the question:</p>

<p>*What colleges would CC members recommend for the Daniels of the world ... students who are bright, interesting, and engaging and who might be best served by colleges that cater to the super-smart ... but who have little or no prayer of being admitted to such places? *</p>

<p>What schools attract--and admit--such applicants and offer the academic stimulation they need? (I have a number of places in mind, but am eager for fresh ideas and different perspectives.)</p>

2

<p>Look at the UK.</p>

<p>They're starving for bright US students and record numbers of people are crossing the pond for a better school than they can get into in the states and for far less money.</p>

<p>One of the most brilliant people I know simply couldn't apply himself once a move took him out of the top private school in the state to a really bad public school. He's now at Edinburgh and flourishing-- one of their top students.</p>

3

<p>"Daniel" reminds me of my brother who was extremely popular in high school, lots of fun, very happy, and liked to have a good time. He is also very bright and you can tell he is bright when you speak with him. But, you could not tell how bright he was from his grades and SAT scores although they were not bad.</p>

<p>Probably the luckiest thing he did was to go to college out of town because he got away from his high school friends. He came very close to staying in town at U Rochester (great school) but changed his mind at the last moment and went to Syracuse (also a great school). Both Syracuse and Rochester are popular safeties for students applying at elite, top-tier schools.</p>

<p>He started out as an English major at Syracuse but changed his major twice. By the way, he was still in party mode when he started at Syracuse.</p>

<p>To make a long story short, he wound up in biology. He was a "late bloomer" and graduated with a research award in biology from Syracuse. He is now working on his PhD dissertation in immunology at a large public flagship university.</p>

<p>Syracuse gave him a chance to "re-create" himself. The large size meant that there were a high number of very bright students in the top tier of the above-average student body. There were plenty of opportunities for a late-bloomer to change and grow.</p>

4

<p>collegehelp: thanks for the post; another reason why I think that many, many Cc'ers underrate Syracuse, especially the A&S school....</p>

5

<p>
[quote]
So of course, Swarthmore admitted me. And I lived unhappily ever after.

[/quote]
LOL (10 characters)</p>

<p>
[quote]
Would my relationship with Daniel - already a bit like hugging a cactus - survive?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This sounds familiar. :D</p>

6

<p>

A lot of LACs come to mind. Centre, Knox, Guilford, Wooster, Kalamazoo, Agnes Scott, Hope, Earlham, Goucher, and others.</p>

<p>Several in Virginia- Hollins, Randolph-Macon, Lynchburg, Randolph College, Sweet Briar. </p>

<p>Evergreen State and the College of the Atlantic, my personal two favorites, are great for those looking for a more unusual undergraduate education.</p>

7

<p>Take a look at the book Colleges That Change Lives if you haven't already-- Schools he chronicles are typically small places that take undergrad education seriously and really do well by their students, but aren't ridiculously selective--several of the schools IBClass06 lists are included, along with some others--There are plenty of places for kids like yours that might well be better fits than the hyper-picky Ivies</p>

8

<p>Yeah, I would say intellectual second-tier LAC's like Hendrix, Knox, Goucher. </p>

<p>Some schools are still hard to get into but much more intellectual than similarly-selective schools. For example, while UChicago and Reed are hard to get into, they are not as tough as Stanford and Harvard and arguably more intellectual in feel.</p>

9

<p>I don't want to hijack a good thread, but I think Schwartz's article strikes some sour notes, and I want to call them out.</p>

<p>This bit

[quote]
the idea of "black militant students" at Swarthmore would not be so different from casting David Spade as rapper Biggie Smalls in the newly released biopic

[/quote]
crosses a line, I think. </p>

<p>The students in question were a million miles from being rich, white comics trying to wring comedy from portraying the polar opposite of who they are.</p>

<p>Swarthmore's fair game. Peter Schwartz '79, who came to Swarthmore as a very privileged, very white kid from Princeton, seeking to somehow associate himself with those serious African American kids from profoundly different backgrounds, is fair game, especially if he's poking fun at himself. If he'd put this differently, it might have worked as the toss-off he may have intended, but he didn't, and it doesn't.</p>

<p>Then there's this, re his kid's reaction to getting dinged at Yale EA:

[quote]
I think he cared more about going to school where people were smart and happy, not perfect and plastic.

[/quote]

More power to his son (who seems to match up with a kid who posts here, btw). But what does it say about Peter Schwartz that he seems to equate the presence of a handful of attitude-burdened, stat-inflating kids on the CC Yale threads with the notion that all Yale kids are awful? Especially since he follows with this

[quote]
Yale had removed from play a very large pool of perfectly plastic applicants

[/quote]
. </p>

<p>If I were 17, I'd write, "sour grapes much?" I'm left thinking that this

[quote]
What I respect about Daniel is that he is not at all like his father

[/quote]
might go for me, too.</p>

10

<p>I would personally recommend Case Western even though it's rather large, they do a great job with their undergrads and have a 100% med school acceptance rate.</p>

11

<p>If "Daniel's" problem is that he doesn't do EC's, but has pretty good scores, i.e. there's really not much of a chance of getting to HYPS, try public schools like UMichigan and Berkeley. He may end up being a star in school, and go to grad schools that HYPS students dream of going to.</p>

12

<p>Here's my list, based on the places where my very bright but underachieving friends went and were happiest (and started achieving):</p>

<p>1) Occasionally, U of Chicago (hard to get in, but will sometimes accept a very bright underachiever if at least some parts of the application clearly say "very smart")
2) St. John's College, Annapolis
3) Reed
4) Bates</p>

13

<p>Wow, what a tool. Pretentious enough? My guess is that his kid isn't elite-school material, despite his brain power. Some kids just need more time to grow up. Why try to shoe-horn a kid into the wrong school?</p>

14

<p>"Yale (which even then was the coolest school in the world, made even cooler at the time by the omnipresent, titillating threat of being mugged or murdered whenever one stepped three feet beyond the 60-foot high, machine-gun-manned, razor wire walls of the campus)."</p>

<p>Is he joking? As someone who's been to New Haven, numerous times I don't think that New Haven is nearly that dangerous. It may not be Darien or New Canaan but its not like there's a great likelihood of a Yale student being shot on his or her way to class.</p>

15

<p>I think as parents we intuitively know what our children are capable of, before they know it themselves. It is an inner connection, based on solid "feelings" about what is best. We know what we know. When our children are in the position of living their high school lives, they don't "know what we know" about their future. We know that they will thrive in an atmosphere that has a challenging curriculum and all of the other benefits of a top level college and they will benefit greatly in the end when they graduate. However, by the time that our children that are focused on today's moment, who are not hung up on their future, reach that point where they are ready to take on the task of looking ahead, it is too late. They would be seniors, on the cusp of graduation before they are ready to look at what is next. This does not mean that they are any less bright or talented or ready for the college experience. They just would choose to arrive on a later train. As parents, we know this and also know what will happen to them if they don't get it all done NOW. We have been granted the vision and maturity that is still developing in our high school children. So we DO have to push them and prod them along in order to provide them with all of the opportunities that are waiting for them, when they are ready to experience them. So, I say, scream and fight like dinosaurs for a month or two now and get them set for later, and then let them return to experiencing their happiness in their daily lives as fully as life will let them. Great article.</p>

16

<p>I think that Daniel from Seattle would fit in well at UBC in Vancouver. Case Western might be a good place for him too. </p>

<p>Generally speaking, I think that self-motivated or ambitious very smart kids do well at large state schools. They take advantage of the many wonderful programs offered.</p>

<p>Laid back and very smart kids do well at smaller schools where they receive more encouragement. I think kids like this (like Daniel) should visit CTCL type schools near them that have good, active programs in their main area of interest.</p>

17

<p>I think that Daniel from Seattle might get in and fit in well at UBC in Vancouver. Case Western might be a good place for him too. </p>

<p>Generally speaking, I think that self-motivated or ambitious very smart kids do well at large state schools. They take advantage of the many wonderful programs offered.</p>

<p>Laid back and very smart kids might do well at smaller schools where they receive more encouragement. I think kids like this (like Daniel) should visit CTCL type schools near them that have good, active programs in their main area of interest. (I think laid back smart kids should only go to large state schools if they are in an honors program.)</p>

18

<p>I've almost been mugged at Yale, and I know a couple people that have.</p>

19

<p>
[quote]
Look at the UK.</p>

<p>They're starving for bright US students and record numbers of people are crossing the pond for a better school than they can get into in the states and for far less money.</p>

<p>One of the most brilliant people I know simply couldn't apply himself once a move took him out of the top private school in the state to a really bad public school. He's now at Edinburgh and flourishing-- one of their top students.

[/quote]

I just wanted to say, although schools such as Oxbridge value intelligence and accept brilliant students, not just the "perfect and plastic" types, it is in no way cheaper than the schools in the U.S. (for an American student). In fact, there is little to no financial aid for a non-English citizen. But yes, if Daniel is truly intelligent, then he has a great shot at Oxford and Cambridge.</p>

20

<p>"I've almost been mugged at Yale, and I know a couple people that have."</p>

<p>It certainly happens, I'm just unsure of how common it is. Maybe I'm just really lucky and can repeatedly walk around places like New Haven at night while I'm alone and not get mugged or anything.</p>