<p>^^ Agreed. UK schools are often financially out of reach because there is little FA for non-citizens/residents--need-based OR merit-based.</p>
<p>And I know a girl (URM) who currently attends Columbia (accepted RD) but fell short of Cambridge by one point in her interview. Oxbridge is tough.</p>
<p>ut dallas</p>
<p>give this school some time. its growing tremendously</p>
<p>Who's talking simply Oxford or Cambridge?</p>
<p>Edinburgh or Andrews are both far cheaper than American schools to attend, for instance.</p>
<p>"I think as parents we intuitively know what our children are capable of, before they know it themselves. It is an inner connection, based on solid "feelings" about what is best."</p>
<p>There are large numbers of kids who drop out or fail out of schools their parents pressured them to attend. I realize this college admissions environment makes it tougher for kids who are low achievers, but I wouldn't have been looking at elite schools for laid-back, happy-go-lucky kids.</p>
<p>I have three kids, all different flavors. #1 is exceptionally driven and well-rounded, already accepted to BC, Gtown, UNC, and Fordham. #2 is bright but unmotivated (well-except for soccer). He'll likely have a 3.something and a high SAT score (he's a sophomore now). Watching the way these two function, and knowing how eager #1 is to be in classrooms with people who are serious about their studies, it's pretty clear #2 will end up just where he belongs and will do better there than in a school his sister would choose.</p>
<p>Sometimes I think we set our darlings up with too high expectations. Success at any school is has to do with the habit of work leading to success. The bright but average grade kid in high school may become the bright-but-failing kid in college - with morale crushed and feeling the failure. </p>
<p>My DS"s Prep school tried an experiment the past year - seeking out the very bright underachiever, many with learning issues. 2/3s were gone by Christmas. Success at a competitive prep school and college is more then about being bright. Its about work ethic, organization, and the habits that lead to success. </p>
<p>How about aiming at a college where the student can realistically be a success? The bright kid who was mediocre in High School, is likely to flunk out of college.</p>
<p>re. #15 (we as parents know what the kids do not)</p>
<p>After 18 years of parenting I'd add this. When I first started parenting I might have writen a paragraph like this. After being a parent I now KNOW for my three kids that our kids are much more aware of who they are, what they need, and where they want to go than us ... and if we as parents ever match their knowledge of themselves we come to it slower than them. We continue to see our kids as who we would like them to be (at least to some degree) however much we try to live by "love the kid you have". </p>
<p>Does our experience predict the future better than our kids? sometimes ... but overall their true understanding of themselves leads them to much better deicsions than if we made them for the kids. Of all the major decisions our kids surprised us with or which we suggested an alternative I can not think of one, in hindsight, that the kid's decision did not work out very well for them and where our preferred option would not have been a worse choice. We may be lucky but our kids have shown that they know themselves and make informed choices ... and as parents we've come to learn to trust those decisions.</p>
<p>"Yale (which even then was the coolest school in the world, made even cooler at the time by the omnipresent, titillating threat of being mugged or murdered whenever one stepped three feet beyond the 60-foot high, machine-gun-manned, razor wire walls of the campus)."</p>
<p>Let me translate this:</p>
<p>New Haven has a sizable black population.</p>
<p>It's really tough to say. After reading, it's impossible to know what his kid wants to know more about. Maybe Dickinson? And, Occidental certainly did the trick for Obama. My instinct would be for him to stick to a small LAC, and afraid he'd be lost to distraction in a big school.</p>
<p>Hahahaha. The world is filled with smart, underachieving, unmotivated high school students. Does a leopard change its spots? Why is college going to make them blossom?</p>
<p>Go to community college and drag out your miserable high school habits and then get a job.</p>
<p>Not everyone is cut out for academic work.</p>
<p>Colleges That Change Lives -- marketing ploy. Pay 46K a yr and yeah, you can go to college. Out in the middle of nowhere with decrepit buildings, but it says COLLEGE on the sign.</p>
<p>^ I don't even know what to say to your arrogant, elitist attitude. And having no personal experience, I'll wait for those who do to prove you wrong.</p>
<p>By the way, many of the CTCL schools offer generous merit aid.</p>
<p>^^Plenty of people mature and grow up. That miserable attitude of "give up now" is a sure way to ensure that one never achieves.</p>
<p>Is this a joke? If you can't qualify for HYP, it is likely that Oxbridge is a pipe dream. The selection is rigorious, you are expected to already decide what major you will be taking and they will ask TOUGH questions about that major.</p>
<p>Moreover, Oxbridge values grades above everything else. If you don't look good on paper, there is no way that you can even qualify an interview!</p>
<p>St Andrews is probably a much better fit.</p>
<p>Even if schools in the UK were free, It cost a fortune to live in the UK. Im not sure how schools in the UK could be considered an affordable alternative to American schools.</p>
<p>Marsie and 3togo: I do believe that if we are aware of our children and their strengths, we can use our insight and maturity to help them make decisions that will serve them well, before they are capable of making these decisions on their own. I also have 3 completely different children. I didn't mean to suggest that I would push an unmotivated child into something that was over their heads, as that would not be very aware or insightful of me. I more meant that if they are not yet ready to dive into the college process, really look at where they will do well, claim the SAT's are a stupid measure of their intelligence, etc. because they are taking care of living for today and do not want to "go there" yet, we have to be the ones to help figure it out for them until they get there. Sometimes almost by force. I know there are a lot of kids on CC who know exactly where they are going and where they want to be and are paving their way to get there. I admire that. But my D is not in that category. If I waited for her to get there, it would be too late to do the process and do it well. I just think I understand her and her ways, so I have to adjust my parenting to include a lot of pushing and prodding. In the end, she will decide where she wants to attend college, and how well she wants to do there. She is not unmotivated in doing well in school, she is an excellent student in a high level program. I also know that she does not have the competitive nature for the Ivies, and that she will most likely be very happy in a good LAC.</p>
<p>...and so the conversation goes entirely wide of the intended mark. A reminder of the topic at hand:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Trying to get back to the original question, I think the essence of the answer may be that kids who "don't look great on paper" might want to turn their attention to colleges that "don't look great on paper." Looking beyond the rankings will turn up plenty of challenging, inspiring, exciting schools - places where students who are just now finding their passions can explore them, places where students even slower to wake can blossom, places where there are plenty of other smart, motivated kids.</p>
<p>As for specifics, there's a thread I can't seem to find this morning that names names and offers details. I probably can't find it because I can't recall the title well enough, but it has to do with singing the praises of your unknown school? I'll keep hunting but maybe someone else can come up with it before I do.</p>
<p>^
I think this is the thread:</p>
<p>ETA: Cross-posted with IBclass06.</p>
<p>Thanks, IBclass06 and Keilexandra, that's the one! Well worth reading no matter how a student looks on paper.</p>
<p>The first ones that come to mind would be the schools mentioned in Colleges That Change Lives, but that's been covered. Of the CTCL schools, the one that I found most attractive was Hampshire College (in MA, btw...tired of telling people that Hampshire isn't in New Hampshire, haha). It's a pretty intellectual crowd - the sort of people that love learning for learning's sake. SATs are optional - they put very little emphasis on test scores. However, they do require you to submit an academic paper as part of your application - they are more interested in your writing skills than your GPA. My only complaint in regards to Hampshire is that financial aid isn't that great - they get a very low endowment from our government's higher ups - but I would recommend that you look into it.</p>