<p>And so I persist....why don't they look good on paper? Unmotivated, non-conformist, no ECs because of intense shyness? If elite colleges are looking for well-rounded individuals who will excel in the environment they offer, such a student will not. Harriet makes an excellent point above.</p>
<p>Ursinsus College in PA.</p>
<p>It is in Pope's "Colleges that Change Lives"</p>
<p>The biggest thing Ursinus has is student research in conjunction with Professors.</p>
<p>Many students dual major. </p>
<p>I am an Ursinus grad. All of my kids -- even the oldest who is Ivy material --are required to apply to Ursinus and give it a strong look.</p>
<p>The HuffPo blogger whose posting is referenced is describing a very cliche student: very bright, but lazy, who would rather socialize than work hard. That's fine -- there are millions like that. The problem is that this parent thinks his kid should still go to Yale because (and I'm paraphrasing) any school below that rarefied level only has dummies who would be intellectually inferior to his son. </p>
<p>Dumb premise. </p>
<p>We all know today that simply having a high IQ will not get you into Yale -- or Swarthmore. Thus, there are millions of kids just like his out there. They are obviously going somewhere. Where? To schools a tier or two lower. There, they will find each other, as well as some kids who are, in fact, in possession of lower IQs, but who outwork kids like his son. These schools, in fact, will not be filled with drooling morons. Thus, this is where his son belongs, not at Yale. </p>
<p>I also get the impression that he, the parent, is hung up on feeling he deserves to be driving around with a Yale sticker on the back of his car because his lazy son is bright. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way and whatever sticker is on the back of his car, if he's unhappy about it, the reason is his son's laziness. Live with it. </p>
<p>What the HuffPo poster doesn't seem to grasp is that his son did not earn a spot at Yale, but that the Yales of the world should have some sort of "rich, white, lazy kid set-aside" program. Yeah, right. Tell some other equally bright kid working his guts out that his slot has been taken by the slacker who sat next to him throughout high school. Yeah, that's fair.</p>
<p>In my own college process, I have come across a few colleges who I feel take different things into account when admitting students. Like the following:</p>
<p>-Wesleyan University (Connecticut): The student body range from the artsy crowd to strong activists. This makes for a environment where all can reach out and learn new things. The campus is medium-sized so the classes and lectures tend to be small. The school draws independent thinkers who are looking for a small liberal arts education. And I have the feeling that the admissions office prefers "interesting" students to those with the BEST test-scores and what-not. And even if one doesn't look good on paper, then the interview and essay will be your best bet. </p>
<p>-Pomona College (California): This small college is part of a consortium of colleges including Pitzer and Claremont Mckenna College. So there really isn't an end to social options but also class options as students in Pomona can take classes there. The classes are hard but the professors seem to be there for the students. +generous FA</p>
<p>-Kenyon College (Ohio): I didn't apply but I did hear good things about this small college. The student body is friendly and the professors are available for the students.</p>
<p>Notnim's example of Ursinus is a good argument against LindaCarmichael's comments about the Colleges That Change Lives. As Keilexandra noted, many of them have excellent merit funds for students that were not necessarily outstanding in HS. My daughter was offered admission to Ursinus with a half tuition scholarship ($17,500) with a 3.4 GPA and 1350 (Math and Verbal) SAT. She chose to go to her first choice school instead, a higher rated school in a city she loved, but which did not offer any $$. She was miserable there, transferred to Ursinus for her sophomore year, and has really flourished and enjoyed it so far. She has better relationships with her profs, finds the students more friendly, and although she misses being in the city, is close enough to go to Philly. Also, Ursinus went ahead and gave her the $17,500 scholarship they had originally awarded her during HS, but AFTER she had already officially transferred...not as an inducement to transfer. We were thrilled but flabbergasted, as they had no incentive to give her the $$ as she had already agreed to transfer there. She is now in the process of applying for a summer fellowship to do research with a prof. I don't mean this as necessarily an endorsement of Ursinus specifically, but just reinforcing the point made by others about many small LAC's. My D was motivated in some areas of high school that she was interested in, but not so much others such as math and science.</p>
<p>Also, regarding Hampshire, we have friends who have a sophomore son in HS who is not highly motivated for many of his classes that don't fit his interests, but is quite bright and a voracious reader. He loves books and does a great deal of reading outside of assigned areas from his classes. He has already been attracted to Hampshire due to their unique approach to learning and evaluation. He does have a couple of EC's that he has been committed to for some time, as well, so maybe that will help out eventually whereever he applies to.</p>
<p>I agree with Keilexandra and IBclass06 about the Brag about your "lesser known" school! thread. I was actively engaged in that thread which delivers numerous liberal arts (as well as other) schools of tremendous values which could not be included in the publications – most particularly the late Loren Pope’s definitive CTCL. I included the location of all 250+ schools, so you could determine if the area would meet your need – look at the latest list as it is the most complete.</p>
<p>The only bad thing about Hampshire is that it's pretty dirty.</p>
<p>Now that could be because I visited in the summer, but (my parents more so than I; I'm a bit of a pig) were apalled at the condition of the dorms etc. Maybe because of its endowment troubles.</p>
<p>Everyone there seemed really nice though, and the reason I didn't apply is because it is strictly a LAC--they didn't have math classes above calculus or physics, specifically electricity and magnetism. My parents were also pressuring me b/c they believe in a strong core curriculum. Whatever.</p>
<p>I think I might be confused about the type of kid we're talking about. I'd like us to discuss extremely smart and intellectual but unmotivated when it comes to completing work and handing it in. What kind of a college would get a kid who aces their SATs but has low grades interested in school and doing their work?</p>
<p>"What kind of a college would get a kid who aces their SATs but has low grades interested in school and doing their work?"</p>
<p>I wasn't motivated until my senior year. So my question is: why should students who have done two years of community college and been motivated to do it be looked over for high school students who found their motivation earlier?</p>
<p>It appears that someone is quite delusional regarding college acceptances and refuses to admit that their offspring does not resemble the tree in any respect.</p>
<p>"So Daniel, surrounded by peers who achieve at superhuman levels (and mindful that he was, first and foremost competing against his superhero high school friends because they were all applying to the same schools), crafted a strategy that involved applying to lots of very good schools, knowing that his odds of getting in were relatively low, but realizing that nonetheless these truly were the schools where he belonged."</p>
<p>His sense of entitlement is infuriating. Daniel cannot even fully commit himself to completing 10 college applications. Some students work hard endlessly during high school to attend HYPS. To mature students, knowing that college applications will directly and significantly affect the next four years of their lives would be enough motivation to complete such a simple task. Daniel, on the other hand, must be prodded by his parents to do so, and rails against them.</p>
<p>There are plenty of kids like Daniel, smart but unmotivated and without any strong interests. Some will turn it around, but others will grow up to become perfectly forgettable people.</p>
<p>To whomever wrote: "Is he joking? As someone who's been to New Haven, numerous times I don't think that New Haven is nearly that dangerous. It may not be Darien or New Canaan but its not like there's a great likelihood of a Yale student being shot on his or her way to class."</p>
<p>um, I believe he was being somewhat facetious, however as someone who lived there back in the late 70's and early 80s, when my husband was a masters and doctoral student there, it WAS dangerous. I recall always carrying a dummy wallet with cash and old ID any time I had to walk off campus, keeping the bulk of my meager money and my ID in my jeans pocket. My husband was accosted once in an elevator - luckily it was interupted. I had someone expose themselves to me. My husband says several times he had to step over people sleeping in doorways of the school. A friend of mine was raped. (though not on campus)
Not that there is any guarantee that my son could have gotten in, despite a legacy, but we did not want him to apply to Yale because of the area. It is right smack dab in the middle of inner city New Haven and it would be a difficult transition for a boy from a tiny rural town.</p>
<p>sorry - off topic</p>
<p>as to colleges that would be good for a bright kid who does not have the stats for the top tier - Grinnell, Reed, Cornell College (Iowa), Marlboro, Hampshire, Colorado or just about any small school where a kid might be nurtured to grow and shine. Carroll College in Montana offers very good merit awards for students who do not have the high stats required to get into the Ivies and the like. So does a nice little LAC in Idaho called The College of Idaho. So does Linfield in Oregon. All of these schools are good schools and could provide a good atmosphere for learning as well as a good education. If a kid has the smarts and develops the work ethic, a top tier school could be in his (graduate school)future from any of these places</p>
<p>Bright kids who don't look good on paper should be dealt with carefully; why don't they look good on paper? Are they unmotivated academically? Did they have health issues during high school and missed a lot of school? Are they more interested in a part time job in a field of interest? Are they truly able to handle an academic load? And so on.</p>
<p>A bright underachiever who graduates from community college can transfer to a four year school easily.</p>
<p>But to answer the question -- not every kid is meant to graduate from college, but every kid who wants to should have the option of trying college. My feeling is that many young people are not motivated for college level work and should be directed to vocational and technical programs.</p>
<p>To whomever wrote: "Is he joking? As someone who's been to New Haven, numerous times I don't think that New Haven is nearly that dangerous. It may not be Darien or New Canaan but its not like there's a great likelihood of a Yale student being shot on his or her way to class."</p>
<p>um, I believe he was being somewhat facetious, however as someone who lived there back in the late 70's and early 80s, when my husband was a masters and doctoral student there, it WAS dangerous. I recall always carrying a dummy wallet with cash and old ID any time I had to walk off campus, keeping the bulk of my meager money and my ID in my jeans pocket. My husband was accosted once in an elevator - luckily it was interupted. I had someone expose themselves to me. My husband says several times he had to step over people sleeping in doorways of the school. A friend of mine was raped. (though not on campus)
Not that there is any guarantee that my son could have gotten in, despite a legacy, but we did not want him to apply to Yale because of the area. It is right smack dab in the middle of inner city New Haven and it would be a difficult transition for a boy from a tiny rural town."</p>
<p>I'm sorry about your bad experiences in New Haven. Most of his column was descriptive and purposely exaggerated so I know that he was being facetious yet his description of New Haven is believed by many CT residents. What I said is in the perspective of someone who lives in CT and knows a lot of people that think of Hartford, Bridgeport, and New Haven (Ct's largest cities) as the "arm pit" of Connecticut. I know people who won't even step foot in these towns because they feel as if they will definitely get shot, robbed, etc. New Haven is like a smaller version of cities like New York. Your safety is certainly not guaranteed but your well being is not necessarily in danger either. Yale's location may come as quite a shock for those who come from small towns but for others, it may not be as drastic of a change.</p>
<p>
Often true, but I did have a friend at college who had been a lazy B student in high school because, in his mind, high school didn't matter. He got close to a 4.0 in college and (having chosen a small not-too-selective school) won outstanding biology student and outstanding chemistry student awards. Made it into the med school of his choice and now a successful surgeon. </p>
<p>As an aside, our college wasn't on the CTCL list, but was a lot like many of those schools - a small school, not hard to get into, with professors who really care about teaching undergraduates.</p>
<p>Also I've seen other posts here about (not to be sexist) boys who were smart but sort of late bloomers, academically. Academic success didn't matter at all to them when they were in 9th or 10th or even 11th grade. I don't know if my friend was like this or if, as he said, it was a planned maneuver on his part (not to study in H.S. and to study hard in college).</p>
<p>
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"I would personally recommend Case Western even though it's rather large, they do a great job with their undergrads and have a 100% med school acceptance rate."
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</p>
<p>I would just like to point out that although this is a lovely thought, it probably isn't true. Many schools seem to have a high med school acceptance rate, but it is a misconception. Schools often tell kids that they can't make it into medical school before they apply. That way, a student doesn't waste his or her time and chooses a different career path. </p>
<p>So only the kids who really can make it into medical school apply, which decreases the rate of rejection, thus making the school look better.</p>
<p>^^ I hate that about life in general, everything is so shady.</p>
<p>I'm not sure Community college is the best route for an underachiever. They generally aren't reading- and writing-intensive enough to prepare a student for "regular" colleges. I'm with Pope (rip) go to a CTCL school or an equivalent. Our son went to Hiram and it was great that he left home for college.</p>
<p>Of course, not everyone could afford to take a chance on their child, but most of the folks who have the time to post on CC have the resources. And their was merit aid.</p>
<p>I have to agree with the recommendation of the U of Chicago. While it has become extremely difficult to get into and most of the admitted students have credentials comparable to those entering the ivies, the school is somewhat unique in its admissions practices. They seem to reserve a few spots for those extremely interesting and "very bright" students, who might be slight underachievers, but who can really contribute to the environment at Chicago. My child was a slight underachiever in high school. Probably about a 3.6 cum with a few honors classes. Her SAT's were mixed, one high 700's and one low 600's. But she showed keen interest in the school, went for an interview in which they clearly were impressed and participated quite seriously and in active leadership roles in a few high profile activities while in high school. Well she was admitted and is getting superb grades there, has really thrived and flourished and continues to participate in her precollege activities at Chicago. So, while it is a long shot that the underachiever will get accepted at Chicago, it does sometimes happen and for the right student is worth a try.</p>
<p>To those who claim "once an underachiever, always an underachiever": while it is true not everyone is cut out for college, some kids truly are just late-bloomers and can and do become excellent students once challenged in the way they individually need to be challenged. The trick of course is the OP's subject of this thread, finding the place in which this can happen.</p>
<p>Are we saying that the only reason a really bright kid would "look bad on paper" is laziness? I think there are multiple reasons this might happen. It could be laziness, it could be undiagnosed learning disabilities, it could be personal or family troubles, it could be that he/she is extremely gifted in one particular area or is just one of those freespirits that sees things a little differently. I know a kid who, when in elementary school, the teacher said about her, "sometimes for Mary, two plus two equals yellow." </p>
<p>I think many people here try to fit the kid to the highly prestigious school irrespective of the kid's unique qualities and interests. The important thing is to find the school that fits the kid, not the other way around.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think many people here try to fit the kid to the highly prestigious school irrespective of the kid's unique qualities and interests. The important thing is to find the school that fits the kid, not the other way around.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Amen!</p>
<p>I've often wondered how many unhappy mismatches come out of the "prestige or bust" mentality.</p>