Colleges for Musical Theater Major - Part 30

<p>Lexismom...
Responding to as many of your questions as I can....my daughter is a senior and OCU is among her top 5 choices. She spent nearly 3 weeks there for camp and had a great experience. It was her second visit to OCU. Without exception, everyone we have met at OCU...from student to administration...has been warm, welcoming, and open. The faculty are very nurturing. This is the kind of atmosphere in which my daughter would blossom. She is a singer first...but has 13 years of dance training and several years of private acting lessons. Regarding your question, she has also studied piano...8 years. Her grades are comparable to your daughter's scores. Assuming your daughter does comparably well on her tests, she should have no trouble being academically accepted at OCU. The academics are not as high there as they are at Michigan, NYU, Carnegie Mellon. There is an honors program at OCU for which my daughter will apply. At this point, she needs a good MUSIC school. I believe OCU has that. Their new Music building will rival facilities at many top schools. They value classical vocal training in their MT majors. This is the type of training my daughter seeks.</p>

<p>You should be able to access scholarship possibilities on the OCU site...I think you find it under Financial....they are quite generous with merit awards. I understand it is important to audition early in order to receive the best $$. They do have one audition in November. The other dates are after the first of the year.</p>

<p>Oh...you also asked about foreign language. My daughter will have completed four years of French training by the time her H.S. years are finished (3 of the 4 years in honors classes). She could, I believe, continue her French there if she wanted...tho that is not a priority for her. </p>

<p>Her priorities there would include extra dance classes in the extraordinary dance school at OCU.</p>

<p>OCU has a lot to offer. It's worth a visit.</p>

<p>Dani,</p>

<p>Thanks for the update on the Cornell theater program. Other than the issues related to there being an MFA when I was there, the program sounds remarkably familiar - strong studio work and strong academic opportunities. As I said earlier, I have nothing but positive memories of the school and felt my training was excellent. (In answer to your question, I did work as an actress both in New York and in Philadelphia where I now live for several years after my training but that was quite awhile ago. I do still occasionally understudy at a regional Equity theater here and actually got to go on a year or so ago and it was a great thrill - the bug NEVER dies!!) With regard to the BFA/BA question and whether or not an MFA is valuable, I will say that in my situation, having had MFA training as an undergrad compromised my ability to do a "real" MFA upon the completion of my undergrad work. I auditioned for several top programs for all the reasons Doctorjohn enumerated (either here or on the drama thread - sorry I can't remember...) but also because I felt I needed more stage work for the reason I stated in my previous post. Without exception, when the grad program auditors inquired about my training, they told me that I should just go to work, that an MFA for me would be "repetitive." I disagreed strongly, but to no avail. However, it sounds to me as though you are doing all your research and I have no doubt that you will find a program that suits your needs and ambitions. And yes, UMich also has a very strong acting program. Check it out. The Cornell Theater Department was chaired by a man named James Clancey when I was there and the Head of the Acting Program was Stephen Coles. And yes, my D knows Amos (there are only 24 kids in the freshman MT class so everyone knows everyone!)</p>

<p>My husband and I are flying to Ann Arbor tomorrow to visit our D for the weekend and see the MT production of Chorus Line. Can't wait!! I'll report back about the show on our return.</p>

<p>Soozievt,
I have some information about the dance opportunities at UMich that you might be interested in. I know you've written about your D's interest in advanced dance so email me if you'd like.</p>

<p>Theatermom...
I'd be interested in the "dance opportunities" at U of M if you don't mind to share....thanks! My daughter would be interested in choreography too...she's choreographed several shows already.</p>

<p>Hoofermom,</p>

<p>Please let me know if you have any additional questions regarding U of Oklahoma. My D is an 04 grad. The last few weeks, she’s been working regional theatre and heads back to NYC on Monday, and then back on the audition circuit. J</p>

<p>OU has a great program with great faculty. MT students are also able to take advantage of classes/faculty from the OU Schools of Drama, Music, and Dance. Max Weitzenhoffer is deeply involved with the MT Department, both personally and financially. Please see their website for more info on Max. One fact about the website - the page “working” is unfortunately very much out of date. I personally know at least a dozen grads from the past couple of years that are working and are not on that page yet. </p>

<p>OU’s MT dept is fairly young, but starting freshman summer, my D worked summer stock side by side with students from U Mich, OCU, CMU, CCM, etc. With OCU right next door, several summer stock theatres, Disney, cruise lines, etc., come to OKC to hold auditions.
One note to all the Moms, just wait till your kids start doing summer stock - you may be spending vacations in places you never thought you would. J</p>

<p>OU also gives generous merit aid for academics, as well as scholarships from the MT Dept. They also have a good Honors College.</p>

<p>Good luck to everyone in their auditions.</p>

<p>georgiamom</p>

<p>musicalthtrmom,</p>

<p>Thank you for you valuable information. My daughter has not studied piano so she ay have a problem - she has studied certificate of merit in voice if you are familar with that. Everyone I have spoiken to thus far has been very friendly and informative. </p>

<p>lexismom</p>

<p>Theatermom, how exciting that you will be at UMich this weekend! I can't recall if your D is in the cast. I vaguely remember your saying she is one of the dancers who are cut in the early scenes of the story? I think I shared on here that during our visit there a few weeks ago, my daughter and I were invited to attend the "theater lab" where the guest director for A Chorus Line at UM was a speaker in sort of a talk show format with Mr. Wagner (where your daughter was in the room but of course I had no clue who she was). It was so interesting to hear this woman speak of her years as a cast member of Chorus Line both on Bdway and on tour and working with Michael Bennett and Fosse and Tommy Tune. A Chorus Line is one of my all time favorite musicals. I wish I could see their production. Have the BEST time. Next weekend, we are going to Parent Weekend at my older D's school, Brown. We will be seeing their theater (drama) production that weekend too, as well as other performing arts events. </p>

<p>As far as dance opportunities at UM, yes, I will email you. When we visited recently, my daughter explored that quite a bit. She talked with various MT majors (at that party that apparently your D was at too) and spoke with others who had strong dance backgrounds like she did and asked what they do. Several took additional dance elective courses in the dance department. My D also asked about this in her interview with an admissions counselor in the School of Music. But first hand info. from your D is definitely welcome. As well, there is a mom on here who posts occasionally, WNYDancersmom, whose D is a freshman in the dance program at UM and in fact, she is coming to VT in about two weeks to visit UVM with her senior in high school and we are meeting for dinner and so I will learn a lot about dance at UM. As I told you, the program is one of my D's first choices. I will contact you. I just told my D (who is at an adjacent computer writing an essay for the Honors program at Emerson). She also appreciated a post you shared fairly recently about songs/cut sections for musical auditions. </p>

<p>Thank you for always reaching out to those of us with kids one step behind yours. Already your sharing about the NFAA Awards influenced my D to go for it and she will be recording her video submission next week. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

<p>I just clicked on your name to send you an email and got a message that you have it set to not receive emails so I am not clear how to go about this. If you have an idea, let me know.
Susan</p>

<p>Dani -</p>

<p>Yes - My D had both Katherine Rosseter and Jonathan Hammond as instructors this past summer...so you must have been in the same classes. (and she has blonde hair) Her song was "It Amazes Me" What song did you sing? And what was your scene? I was there during the last week and got to watch all the classes - but am clueless when putting names to faces. (and the D. is off doing a play....)</p>

<p>And I apologize in advance to the list - but I also cannot post messages to Dani privately (or anyone - I tried several different names just to see - and the list won't allow it) I tried to edit my profile so that I could accept private e-mails - and there is no space to put such information. Anyone have any ideas?</p>

<p>Jane</p>

<p>Just had a meeting with a college advisor! He reaffirmed all the information you all have given me, and told me what a valuable resource you all are (as if I hadn't figured that out)...</p>

<p>soozie- I will definitely look at Brown. It sounds like an amazing place. It would be great if you could report back on the show you see there!! and thanks for the offer of your daughter as a resource, sounds great.</p>

<p>theatermom- my college counselor said cornell was almost a "hidden secret" for theater, not many people know about the program, but apparently its amazing! thought you'd like to know... i thought it was cool!</p>

<p>janenw- in jonathon's class i sang broadway baby, there wont be trumpets, and unusual way... in kathryn's class i did a promiscuous scene from "out of gas on lover's leap" about a boy and a girl who know eachother from a school where rich parents kind of dump their kids... talking about their relationship... we started by drinking from beer bottles and lighting up paper-towel blunts... hehe. I also saw your D at Movin' Out! With either you or your husband, can't remember. Anyway, tell her I say hi!!!</p>

<p>LexisMom....
I would be happy to share any information you would like regarding University of Arizona. I have a freshman BFA MT student there, who so far seems very pleased and happy with the program. They offer a BA Theater Major, and then BFA Acting and BFA MT major. They must audition to be accepted into the BFA programs. They take very few students. This year there are only 9 for MT, 5 boys and 4 girls.<br>
My student was accepted first to the University, and then attended the audition, which took place in February. At the time of the audition, they can also audition for scholarships, which they do give to a few incoming freshman. There are also academic scholarships that are offered through the university. If you are considering the school, I would recommend a visit. The facilities are fabulous, and we were pleasantly suprised when we made our first visit and took a tour and saw all that they have to offer. If you have more questions, feel free to ask or email! Good luck to you and your daughter!</p>

<p>Thanks Theatermom and Alwaysamom...I figured it out and like this new set up and the options available.
I sent you an email Theatermom!
Alwaysamom, I know your D is in Atlantic and my D's (long distance) boyfriend is hoping to get into that studio and in fact, I think is heading there (tomorrow) to visit/observe and will be doing ED, trying for Atlantic.
Susan</p>

<p>On page 1, NYTheatermom said that Syracuse has a "no-cut" policy. What does that refer to?</p>

<p>Also at Syracuse - do only MT majors get into musicals? Thanks......</p>

<p>voronwe, this is an interesting, and controversial, subject which hasn't been discussed much in recent weeks but it's an important one to investigate if you have a child interested in a theatre program. Dr. John wrote a good explanation and description in the FAQ and since I'm having trouble linking to it, I'll copy and paste here. If you have any questions after reading this, fire away! :)</p>

<p>Dr. John:</p>

<p>Some musical theater schools employ a CUT POLICY, meaning they accept a certain number of students, but cut some and do not graduate as many as they accepted. There has been a lot of heated debate on why cut policies are put in place, their purpose, and so on. Our lovely doctorjohn (click to be taken to his contact info) wrote the following explanation of the process. </p>

<p>CUT POLICY </p>

<p>First, let's divide the issues. One has to do with numbers. The other with evaluations. </p>

<p>NUMBERS </p>

<p>It used to be that many schools would admit more students than they could graduate in a performance degree program. The primary reason was that departments were under pressure from administrators to admit a large number of students, based on economic models. But at the same time, administrations were not willing to fund the number of faculty required to teach those students all the way through. </p>

<p>Here's the problem. You can't effectively teach acting to a class of much more than 16. It is difficult for administrations to understand that. The predominant model in college teaching is still the lecture, and there is no limit to the number of people who can listen to lectures. Some students will listen, some won't, and you find that out on the test. Unless the tests have to be graded by hand, there's almost no limit to the number of students who can be taught this way. </p>

<p>Not so acting. It is kinesthetic, intellectual and emotional work, and it requires feedback, lots of it, from the teacher. If an acting class meets 8 hours/week, and you have 16 students, everyone gets roughly a half-hour of individual instruction per week. That's adequate. Now imagine what happens if the class meets 3 hours/week and you have 30 students. Six minutes per week of individual feedback is completely inadequate. </p>

<p>Knowing this, most departments have done their best to limit acting class sizes to around 16 and to raise the contact hours as far as possible. But that requires a lot of personnel, and many colleges simply could not provide the necessary faculty to teach the added number of sections. You all need to understand that Theatre departments are in a competitive environment for resources within the university. English, Biology and History need faculty too, not to mention the money that Financial Aid wants for scholarships and Student Affairs needs to renovate the dorms. </p>

<p>So what is a department to do? In the past, many used a "cut" system. They would admit the 40 plus which the administration wanted, teach multiple sections of the beginning work, and then cut the class at the end of the sophomore year. After two years of work, they believed, they could see who had progressed and who had not, and they could make meaningful and fair decisions. </p>

<p>They couldn't. And the reason has to do with statistics, which theatre faculty typically don't study. Imagine a class of 40. Standard distribution and common sense tell you that 10 will be at the top in terms of any measure you like--talent, work ethic, progress--and 10 at the bottom. But 20 will be in the middle, and the closer you get to the middle, the fewer the differences between individual students. Anybody can choose the top five from any group of 40, and release the bottom five. (Look at American Idol.) The next five are reasonably clear. But then it gets harder. By the time you're trying to make choices about numbers 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20, there's almost nothing to distinguish students. And then it becomes a matter of taste. When that happens, the most powerful faculty member wins, and what that happens, students learn from the moment they walk through the door whom they have to please. You can imagine the results. </p>

<p>That old approach, which is what I mean by a "cut" system, has almost disappeared. CMU abandoned it years ago, as I said, and so did SMU, which is where I taught in the 70's. It is painful, nearly impossible to administer, destructive of morale, and finally detrimental to the goals of training. In its place, schools have adopted a variety of approaches. One is to admit only as many as they can teach all the way through. CMU does that now, as do we. Another is to create different tracks. SMU has a BFA in Acting, but also a BFA in Theatre Studies. Everyone gets the same acting classes in the first two years, but then the students go in different directions in the last two years. Students know from the beginning what track they're in. NYU does a version of this, by sending students off to different studios. </p>

<p>Another approach is to have students audition after a year or two to get into the upper-division work. Northwestern does this with its MT program. And virtually every public university with open admissions has no choice but to use this approach. I believe that all these systems are fair, as long as schools are clear about it up front. </p>

<p>But there are still some schools, I suspect, which have the old "cut" system, which cannot be fairly administered, I believe. Caveat emptor. I would tell you which ones, but honestly I don't know, and it would be unethical of me to guess. </p>

<p>EVALUATIONS </p>

<p>"It's an interesting point - having admitted students with some promise and credentials, do English departments 'cut' their undergraduates who aren't writing up to standard? If the students are really writing badly, they flunk out. If they are simply not among 'the best', then they go on to graduate, but may not find immediate success as a novelist or be a successful non-fiction writer. But no one cuts them from a program at age 19-20. Why the difference?" </p>

<p>That was JrMom's excellent question, echoed by Soozievt who wrote: </p>

<p>"What is the worst that can happen with that student finishing the program? The student just may not have good career prospects." </p>

<p>These are not simple questions, and I don't promise simple answers. But I do think there are two primary reasons. The first has to do with standards and reputations, the second with the nature of the performing arts and how people learn them. </p>

<p>STANDARDS AND REPUTATION </p>

<p>The first reason for using juries and similar evaluation systems is historical: some theatre conservatories are descended from music conservatories which have been doing this sort of thing for centuries. </p>

<p>Juries are an accepted part of the world of music. So much so that Indiana University, my son David's alma mater (he is a bassoonist), only has to say in its list of requirements for the performance degree, "Entrance audition, freshman jury, upper-division hearing, junior recital, senior recital." Not much further explanation required. Students understand that they must pass each and every level in order to receive the degree. David tells me that students get two chances to pass these juries; if they don't pass the second time, they have to find another major. But he also tells me that he knows of it happening only once or twice in his six years at IU. </p>

<p>If that's true, why do the faculty keep the jury system? Why don't they simply rely upon grades in courses, including the studio? </p>

<p>Historically, European universities separated professors from tutors. Professors lectured and wrote the examinations, while tutors helped prepare students to pass the exams. Early educators recognized that tutors would have difficulty making hard judgements about students with whom they'd developed a close personal relationship. Examinations, administered by the college, were the only way to ensure that graduating students had mastered an accepted body of knowledge and skills. </p>

<p>American universities, for a variety of reasons, combined the two roles and allowed professors to grade their own students. (That carries its own set of problems.) Nowadays, the only vestiges of the old European model are in: </p>

<p>Master's thesis and doctoral dissertation committees, which contain other departmental and "outside" faculty in addition to the student's advisor.
Standardized tests, from state-mandated competency tests in 4th grade, through SATs and graduate school entrance exams, all the way to law and medical boards.
Music (and dance and theatre) juries. </p>

<p>In all of these cases, the intent is to establish standards which students must meet in order to be certified. And there is recognition that maintaining those standards requires testing by someone other than the primary tutor. </p>

<p>Whatever you think of standardized tests--and I'm very suspicious of them--I don't know anyone who would debate the necessity of "juries" for lawyers and doctors. Or auto mechanics and chefs, for that matter.</p>

<p>Dr. John (part 2):</p>

<p>But for bassoonists or actors? What difference does it make if XXU graduates an actor who's not very skilled? Who gets hurt, really? </p>

<p>The answer is: every actor who has graduated recently or will graduate soon from any given university (hereupon referred to as XXU). Reputation is critical in the theatre, and when a department showcases its senior class in New York City, that reputation is put directly on the line. Professional training programs live not only in the business world of higher education but also in the business world of professional theatre. If one casting director decides that he doesn't want to bother interviewing that XXU alumna because their showcases have been weak recently, it doesn't matter how good that individual XXU alumna is. Everyone gets painted with the same brush. If would be nice if casting directors were "fair", but let's not be naive about this. </p>

<p>The reverse is also true. If a school presents outstanding showcases, then everyone who carries the degree--even graduates who weren't in the showcase--benefit as well. "XXU has been turning out some good people lately, let's take a look at her." It won't guarantee the job--only the audition process (the ultimate jury system) will do that--but it may help the actor get the first interview. </p>

<p>So schools which present showcases--and there is market demand from parents and prospective students for schools to do them--have a problem. How do you ensure that the actors you present in NYC will look good to the agents and casting directors? There are only two choices of which I'm aware: </p>

<p>You have to have students audition to get into the showcase.
You have to eliminate students along the way who aren't "measuring up". </p>

<p>Hence, the need for juries. Showcases cut both ways. They certainly provide opportunities for graduating seniors to be seen. But they also put considerable market pressure on schools to bring only those students who will look good. And if the showcase is a requirement rather than an elective, schools are pushed towards making decisions quite early on about who will succeed in the training, and there's less patience with slower growth. </p>

<p>LEARNING IN THE PERFORMING ARTS </p>

<p>If an English major doesn't write well, but still well enough to pass the courses, no one cuts them. That's true, and the reason is simple. Writing is a solitary art. A weaker English student may be a burden to the teacher, but is not a burden to the rest of the class. Not so in music, dance or theatre. These are collective art forms which require collaboration. Imagine a bassoonist who is behind the conductor, a dancer who can't lift his partner, an actor who doesn't learn his lines. They not only harm the product, they harm the learning of the other students. So there have to be rules, and I think everyone understands that. </p>

<p>But lack of preparation can be handled through grades. So why juries? Here are good reasons: Juries give students a benchmark to aim for, a place to put together everything they've learned, and it gives faculties the chance to see where the students are in their training. We just finished meeting with our freshman class. They were asked to do a lengthy written self-assessment, and to present their best 90-second monologue. (We'd heard the MTs sing at last week's freshman MT ensemble recital.) In the first half-hour, we saw all the monologues, and then we met with the class individually in 15-minute sessions for the rest of the afternoon. We started by asking them to speak to the issues in their self-assessment, and then we gave them feedback about their work in the jury and in classes and productions. They were very positive sessions. Faculty who worked with the students in the fall could comment on their progress; faculty who hadn't yet worked with them could comment on the strengths and weaknesses in what they saw that day; and all of us could help the students focus on their personal goals for next year. </p>

<p>We (at Otterbein) take this "formative" approach all the way through, and we don't formally vote on whether students can continue. For us, that's dependent on grades in classes, including production. (We can afford to do this because we hold auditions to get into the senior showcase.) But some schools use the juries to make decisions about continuation. That injects a certain amount of fear into the process, certainly. Too much fear is, I believe, highly counter-productive. Students become totally focussed on the jury and they lock up physically, emotionally and artistically. But too little fear is also, I believe, counter-productive. If there are no stakes, students walk into class and into rehearsal unprepared and passive. That's not only damaging to the other students, as I indicated before, it's ultimately damaging to the students who are unprepared. They are not learning the work ethic required to succeed in this tough business, and we do them no favors by allowing them to believe that they can succeed without it. Some fear is necessary. Finding the right balance is critical. And the balance is different for different students. </p>

<p>Finally, that's the difference between the BA and the BFA degree. Students who are global thinkers, self-motivated, interested in many things, synthesizers, are probably going to be happier in a BA program where they can study what they want, when they want, and how they want. But students who want to go as far as they can in a psycho-physical skill, like acting or music or dance, are probably going to do better in a BFA program which challenges them to dig deeply into themselves and to reach for the best work of which they are capable. And evaluation systems, including juries--if done right--can aid in this process.</p>

<p>Thanks for the good information. Can't wait to visit.</p>

<p>alwaysamom:</p>

<p>Thanks for reprinting my piece on cuts. For all of you who are having difficulty linking to the FAQ page that Shauna (remember Shauna?) worked on so diligently, here's the URL:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.geocities.com/musicaltheatercolleges/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.geocities.com/musicaltheatercolleges/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I just tried it, and it works. For those new to the thread, the FAQ page has a wealth of information, including a comprehensive list of schools which offer MT degrees.</p>

<p>Have a good weekend, everyone.</p>

<p>Doctor John - Could you explain how Otterbein's quarters work? Most schools work on semesters. Do students in MT go to all or generally skip summer? Also, it looked like the Winter session held only night courses. Am I looking at this incorrectly?</p>

<p>Thank you, alwaysamom! Very helpful. And does anyone have any info on schools that let nonmajors audition for musicals etc? Is Syracuse one or not?Does Syracuse let nonmajors take classes, or can you minor?</p>

<p>Dani-</p>

<p>Of course I remember now...the kids on the car hood with the beer and the lit 'blunts'! How could I forget that one!</p>

<p>Everyone else -</p>

<p>I too - have finally figured out how to send private e-mails (and receive them also!) Thanks for the correct info on how to do this!</p>

<p>jane</p>

<p>Voronwe,</p>

<p>FSU lets non-majors audition for most productions. The fall musical and the straight theatrical productions are open audition. The spring musical is open to MT students only. I have heard that in practice, all of the leads in the fall musical and most of the ensemble roles go to MT majors. Likewise, the leads in straight plays usually go to BFA acting majors or to MT's. Freshmen MT majors are required to audition their 1st semester on campus; freshmen acting majors are not allowed to audition. The reason for the double standard has to do with the size of the MT and drama programs. The MT dept. is very small at FSU - there are approximately 30 - 35 students. The acting programs, BA and BFA, are considerably larger. Freshmen acting majors are given freshmen year to get their feet wet in the department. They have the time to get settled on campus and begin their training before they start performing. This year the fall musical is "Oklahoma". Though freshmen MT's had to audition, very few were cast. Two freshmen boys and one girl (my D) are in the show. There are upperclassmen, all female, who were not cast.</p>

<p>I would think that most larger MT programs restrict auditions to MT majors only. They have enough majors to cover all parts in even very large productions. Smaller MT programs sometimes need to cast some roles from outside the department. </p>

<p>I know that at CCM musicals are restricted to MT's only, though the school occasionally casts faculty members or older adults or children from the Cincy community. Sometimes a director feels that a certain role is too old or too young for any of the college students to portray well.</p>