<p>It might not be completely true, but I'd just tell her she can forget about getting into Tisch, Michigan, or Miami and that there are a lot of other schools at which her scores might serve as a tiebreaker she'll probably lose if she doesn't get them up. Honestly, as long as her grades are okay, I wouldn't worry about it too much unless she's for some reason obsessed with any of those three schools. I've known some very talented people whose scores and grades were nothing special and they did fine though most went more towards stand-alone conservatory type programs. For a lot of creatively brilliant people, sustained left hemispheric activity is only slightly preferable to Chinese water torture. It's not that they're dumb. It's more that their brains aren't wired to make them quick studies in certain subjects and their attitude towards them becomes an "hours in the day" thing. I'm sure what they missed as the result of this played into their test scores.</p>
<p>hey all,
as a general bit of comfort (for what it's worth) we performing arts students are known as being a unique bunch, and with the creative side often comes a bit less attention to academics at times. i'm sure the theatre deptartments at schools are aware of that, and also that the admissions department considers that when reviewing apps marked "musical theatre" under 'intended major.'
but in any event, i'm a firm believer that all students eventually end up where they're best fit to be, as long as they put in the hard work and determination. so if the grades don't cut it, it probably wasn't meant to be!
(and there's always transferring later down the road! i've done it already, and am doing it again. after reading previous posts, i've noticed that shauna has had a similar route as the one i'm planning at this point, so it can be done, and more than once! i just hope i can have a fairy tale ending like she did!)
i'm andy by the way. i'm new :)</p>
<p>I heard Carnegie Mellon is quite difficult to get into academically as well - no?</p>
<p>RossJi...while Carnegie Mellon is a very selective college academically, it is a little different with regard to BFA candidates because at that school, they weight the audition 90% and the academic application 10%. I think you need to be a good student, but it is not weighed quite so heavily as it is at NYU or even at UMich. Still, I imagine when it comes to between you and some other candidate in the end, it helps to have the goods in the academic side as well. The program at CMU is akin to conservatory with very little academic coursework. These programs all vary in different aspects and this is one of them.</p>
<p>While I understand what some wrote above about how SOME theater kids are with regard to academics and what is important in their lives and so forth, that is only applicable to some, not all. Many of the kids I know who are pursuing a BFA degree, happen to also be very good students. I mean they juggle academics and very full artistic lives and some do both well. I do understand and agree with the profile described above but am just saying that some of those who go into theater majors, are also quite good academic students. </p>
<p>One appeal of a school such as NYU or UM, to my own kid, is that the school as a whole is an academically challenging one, and she likes that environment as well as excellent theater training. So, there are all types who go into this field. And so picking which program fits your type is important too. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>MTBigSis, I do agree with Theatermom that there are some BFA programs where the test scores and GPA just have to be over a minimum and the rest is heavily on the audition, so those might be the ones for her to shoot for. For example, she might want to look into Boston Conservatory. If she does not want a conservatory, I think her stats might be ok for Penn State or Ithaca. I agree with Thesbo that she will have difficulty getting into NYU or UM without increasing the score. But no matter, cause there are MANY fine BFA programs to consider and it is about finding the right match for your profile and your interests. Her SATs are not going to be as important for some schools as they were for you in your admissions process. Lots rides on the audition. But a strong academic profile, coupled with a strong audition matters at some of the programs. But at some, the academics just must pass the muster (like over a certain threshold that is not that high). Shoot for THOSE.
Susan</p>
<p>mtbigsis - I took a Kaplan SAT prep course last summer and my SAT went up almost 200 points which was somehow enough for Tisch. I highly recommend it. I think it would have been more if I had been able to find a testing site that did NOT have flourescent light. I don't know why, but it messes with some artistic kids' attention spans. It drives me crazy and should be outlawed from all public places! I am one of the people that think math subjects are WORSE than Chinese water torture. Nothing is worse than getting your creative groove on and having to totally switch gears to play around with boring math problems. They are called "problems" for a reason but I think "annoyances" would be more descriptive. Could I be any happier that part of my life is over? haha</p>
<p>Thanks, everyone, for these positive, helpful posts!!
I know that the admission process at CMU varies by individual school, and the College of Fine Arts, CFA, has the lowest average SAT score (but still good--1260 combined Math+Verbal) and the second-lowest GPA (but still high--3.51). These stats can be found in the second gray box at <a href="http://www.cmu.edu/enrollment/admission/know/facts.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.cmu.edu/enrollment/admission/know/facts.html</a> (CMU is a website I got to know well bc it was one of the schools I was considering--I was accepted to Mellon College of Science, but chose Case Western instead).
But I didn't know about the weighting, so thanks, Susan! Did you ask when you visited colleges or is this information that's made available to those applying?</p>
<p>Thanks again everyone :-)</p>
<p>notarebel, I will talk to my parents about enrolling her in some kind of prep class-I'm sure she can squeeze it in SOMEWHERE!! hehe</p>
<p>MTBigSis, I did not ask so much when visiting but as I researched each school, I learned more information and I can't tell you exactly where I got that one piece of information about CMU because it is a blur to me now as there is so much information to glean in this process. I read each website thoroughly, plus all their printed information, plus there were information sessions at each school, plus we often met with students we either knew or did not know at each school, plus (I can't emphasize this one enough) THIS website.....because on this forum, everyone is looking at the same bunch of schools relatively (it is not like regular college admissions, there is a smaller finite list of BFA programs in MT than colleges in general) and people share information here, plus often those that are already in the programs (or their parents) have stayed on and been a resource to those who come next (thanks all who have done this and I would now like to pay it back in the future). So, I just know that this is the way CMU does it. </p>
<p>With NYU, they weigh academics 50% and artistic review 50% and I think this is the only school that has it in that proportion. As you know, NYU is a selective university in and of itself (without figuring in auditions). For UMich, you have to first pass academic review before being invited to audition and again, that school is fairly selective as well academically. Many of the other programs, academics count but the artistic review is a greater percentage of the admissions decision. At some schools, the academic review is more of a matter of just being "over" a certain minimum bar in GPA and SATs. This is not everywhere. I mean academically, usually you have to be above average even at places like Emerson. But for some schools, academics is just not weighted that much and I think if they want you artistically, and if your academics pass over a minimum (which is not that high in my opinion), you can still make it in.....this MIGHT be so at Boston Conservatory, CCM or Penn State even. I even think your sister's stats would not rule out Ithaca either. Syracuse, is more of a reach academically for her but even then, the artistic review is weighted more. But as others have said, when it comes down to choosing between several candidates, it can only help to have the academic qualifications too. </p>
<p>For the SATs.....while your sister could enroll in a course, I think there are two other options that are more effective. One is for her to buy the book, 10 REAL SATs which is exactly that....real SAT tests from the past, NOT practice tests made up by some other company. LOTS can be gained by merely practicing the tests under timed conditions. Some books also have a section on various strategies, in other words, it is helpful to learn HOW to take the test (which is not the same as learning content). If your family can afford it, working with a private SAT tutor is better than a class, I think, because the tutor can assess your sister's particular testing weaknesses and hone in on those. Even if she had six sessions with a tutor, it might help. If your sister is motivated to take the practice tests (do it timed) and to perhaps also do some sessions with a tutor, it should be worth it to her, because as much as I and others hate these tests, they are used in admissions and after all the years of hard work in school, why have your scores keep you out. If there is any chance to raise the scores, why not try, ya know? I would never make these tests the focus of preparing for college admissions but they are one thing (albeit a yucky thing) that has to be dealt with in this process. Personally, I would value a candidate's academic record over time more than these tests.....WHAT courses the student took to challenge herself, the grades, the achievements. Make sure your sister works hard to present herself well on an application....the essays, the telling of WHY she wants that particular college program, the resume, etc. And the preparation for the auditions is important. There is lots to do and testing is one small facet. My preference, however, is to have all testing out of the way junior year because fall of senior year has enough to do ! However, using October for retaking a test is a good option. </p>
<p>You are right about the SAT and GPA thing at CMU, as it is a very good school, but all I was saying previously is that at that program for the BFA, they weigh academics 10%. However, that should not be discounted because they only take TEN Kids into the BFA program for MT and so they can be choosy and when it comes down to the final choices, a kid who has the academic package will come out on top, no doubt. </p>
<p>It is SO difficult to get into ANY BFA or MT program (harder in my opinion than Ivy league because the admit rate is about 5% at most programs which is lower than the Ivies AND there is the element of an artistic review which comes down to a lot in a short amount of time, not as much as what you have done for a long amount of time....though hopefully whatever you did over the years helps you have a better audition). So, it is already difficult to get into a BFA program but for your sister, just research the stats for each program and build a reasonable list. A school like NYU might be out but there are many where her stats would be ok. I know a talented person who is not a great student and she did not get into any of her BFA programs but Boston Conservatory. So, you have to look at the stats for each program, wherever you can find them and plan accordingly. In the meantime, it would be beneficial to put in the effort to see if the SAT could be raised....nothing ventured, nothing gained. </p>
<p>As Notarebel mentions, a kid could just say to herself, one more push with math or whatever it is....and then I may never have to do it again! </p>
<p>There are many kids like your sister...strong in performing arts, not as strong in academics. But there are students, as well, who are strong at both. So, what you have to do is gear her list to the schools where her profile is going to work best. If that means no NYU or UM, it does not matter because a school must fit you. It is about finding the best match (and of course, getting in!). </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>I totally agree with Susan re the merits of a private tutor versus a commercial SAT prep class. The per hour costs for a tutor are scarey at first but when you stop and realize that every minute of the tutor's time is focused on your child alone and dealing with the specific issues that may be holding your child back, there is no question that the combination of a private tutor and a committed student (yes, the student has to actually DO the work that the tutor assigns) provides the most "bang for the buck." I know that there were kids in my D's class in highschool who were soooo self motivated that they made magic with home study courses or made themselves memorize endless vocabulary words every day for months, but my D was not one of those. I am convinced that the money we spent on a private tutor not only helped her learn more, learn HOW to learn more and become a better test taker, it gave her a huge boost of confidence that she was going to be able to test well and in her case, that was really half the battle.</p>
<p>Do ask for lots of references before committing to any tutor and do talk to the parents and students who have used their services, however. Caveat emptor!</p>
<p>Has she considered trying the ACT? I have heard that sometimes students who are "artsy" type people do better on the ACT.</p>
<p>One of my former students got a perfect 2400 on her SATs; SHE went to one of those SAT review courses (in Ridgefield, CT). I asked her if it helped; she said the only good thing is that they took actual SAT's over and over again. So you might have a point there about a good tutor and just practice taking them.
Also, I think it would be beneficial for parents/potential MT students to be aware of the acceptance rates for the various schools. I know I read pretty much about each school, but I don't remember! Carnegie Mellon only accepts 10; out of how many? I know NYU accepts 60-80; out of how many, I don't know. Could someone find the link where this was discussed (at least, I think there's a link for this!) I think others would like to know who haven't yet applied.</p>
<p>RossJi....to answer your questions above...</p>
<p>CMU said at the auditions that 1200 kids audition for a total of 10 MT slots and 18 Acting slots. While you can specify if you are applying for MT or Acting, you are considered for both, even if you apply for MT there. For instance, my D was waitlisted for the acting program there but at other schools, she checked off NOT to be considered for acting but at CMU they do regardless. </p>
<p>At NYU/Tisch....we went to a Tisch information session. They said that 2500 kids apply for Drama (either MT or Acting) and they accept 500 (less actually enroll, however)....BUT for CAP21, 900 apply (of that initial 2500) for MT and they accept 80 which usually yields about 64 freshmen. So, for Tisch drama, that is a 20% admit rate but for CAP21 (MT), it is around 9% or so. </p>
<p>For most schools, the admit rate averages about 5% for the BFA in MT. The highest admit rate on my D's list of 8 BFA programs was at BOCO, 10%. </p>
<p>I could give others but kept to the ones you mentioned.</p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Wow, the great suggestions keep coming :-)! Thank you all so much!!</p>
<p>SoozieVT, the book you mentioned, 10 Real SATs, is exactly the one I used when I took the SATs! My sister took the same course I did (it was a short, non-intensive after-school thing at our high school) so I'm assuming the book she got when she took the course is the same one, or at least by the same company (I haven't seen it yet). The problem is, I'm not there to sit down with her and have her take the practice test--so a private tutor, even for just a few sessions, is probably a great idea--having something structured will help her just by keeping her on a schedule and forcing her to be productive.</p>
<p>Rossji, I agree with your student--the class that I took at my HS didn't help me as much as the book, 10 Real SATs did--I just took them on my own a few times and timed myself, and it really prepared me for test day.</p>
<p>theatermom, thanks for the tutoring tips! Thinking about the way my sister learns and builds confidence, it sounds like having a tutor will benefit her a lot :-)!!</p>
<p>chrisr, someone else suggested the ACT, so I am looking into that as well.</p>
<p>Thanks again for the great advice, keep it coming :-)</p>
<p>Rossji,</p>
<p>When my D applied to UMich (she just finished her freshman year), we were told there were approximately 900 applications submitted for a BFA in Musical Theater. Of those 900, about 400 passed the initial academic review by the University Admissions office and so were invited to audition. From those 400, they accepted a class of 24 - 14 boys and 10 girls - a overall yield of about 2.5%. If you think about the disparity between the number of boys and girls who usually apply/audition, that percentage gets a little better for boys and worse (if you can believe it....) for girls.</p>
<p>That year several students were accepted outright within a few weeks of auditioning (UMich has rolling admissions) and several others were initially deferred and then accepted. I don't believe anyone got in from being waitlisted. They only offered admission to 26 students and only two went elsewhere - 1 to CAP 21 and I don't know where the other one went.</p>
<p>Hope this helps!</p>
<p>BTW, I know there was a list of the number of students each program shoots for in the archived threads, but I'm sorry that I don't remember which Part...... :(
Perhaps parents with kids in other programs can contribute what they know and we can reconstruct the list at some point....</p>
<p>To pick up on Theatermom...she gave the UM ones.
Some others....
Penn State said 350 auditioned for 16 slots (I don't know how many they accepted to yield the 16.....I know my D and her best friend were accepted and turned it down and so that's two). </p>
<p>Ithaca, I'd have to look it up if I had the number of how many auditioned (was a high number) but they had 12 slots (not sure the number they accepted to yield 12, but my D and two friends I know turned them down).</p>
<p>Syracuse, auditioned 400, accepted 40 to fill 20 slots. </p>
<p>BOCO, auditioned roughly 1200, accepted roughly 120 to yield roughly 80. </p>
<p>Emerson....I forget how many auditioned (again, a large number) for approx. 25 slots (I just know the acceptance rate is in the ballpark of 5%). </p>
<p>CMU, NYU, and UM already mentioned.</p>
<p>PS, Theatermom brought up an excellent point about admit rates between the sexes. If a school has about a 5% admit rate (kinda the typical average we are talking about here), the admissions chances for a girl is likely a lower rate than for a guy because more girls apply than guys but they are aiming to accept an equal number of guys and girls usually. So figure in a worse odds if you are a girl than the statistics mentioned above!
Susan</p>
<p>ACT vs. SAT - </p>
<p>My MT son, who has very good grades and works very hard in school to be at the top of his class, took both ACT and SAT and did substantially better on SAT (when converted to ACT score, he is 4 points higher on SAT than on the ACT equivalent). We just did ACT again and had the same composite as the last time. He also had a better score on the new SAT essay than on the ACT essay both times.</p>
<p>My older son, the athlete, also did better on SAT than on ACT. Our state schools mostly look at ACT, so it is the more popular test around here. </p>
<p>Hard to say how any individual child will do - I suggest taking both just to see.</p>
<p>Susan, you said:</p>
<p>"For most schools, the admit rate averages about 5% for the BFA in MT. The highest admit rate on my D's list of 8 BFA programs was at BOCO, 10%."</p>
<p>I just want to make sure that kids in this year's class realize that BOCO also has a huge cut rate - was it one third of the freshman MT class? I can't remember. That makes me less excited about the "high" admit rate!</p>
<p>Chris, BOCO's admit rate astounded me when we went to the audition and the admissions rep gave a talk. But also the yield rate surprised me. They accepted something like 120 to yield something like 80 (approx.). That is not as high a yield as most programs and seems like a large percentage turning down the offer (my kid was one of them). </p>
<p>Then there is the diminished size of the senior class (from when they were freshmen). I know they have cuts but my D talked to a girl she knew from her camp who is now a senior there and I asked her something about the low number of seniors....I am sorry to forget the actual numbers because time has passed but it was maybe like 35 or certainly not the number that originally enrolled. She barely spoke of cuts and in fact, spoke about kids dropping out who had a change of heart or could not take the intensity (these programs ARE intense so kids should realize this going into it....). It just seemed like so much smaller of a graduating class than the entering one....half? or something that stood out more so than many other programs we visited. CCM's senior class is also smaller than the one they admit but I know they have cuts. There was very little discussion about cuts at BOCO and I think that unlike CCM, there are probationary levels before cuts...like warnings and semesters to improve...not quite as cut throat cutting. Most of the programs we visited did not have cuts. The cut policy at CCM was one of the factors (not the only one) that deterred my kid from applying to CCM, though it is a great program! Several programs spoke to the point as to why they did NOT have cuts and the philosophy behind that. There were also places that while there were no cuts, some kids did not go on and changed majors or some such. For instance, I saw that a bit at Emerson. I think with BOCO, the diminishing senior class was not all due to cuts but also attrition. I can't say why this is so but it definitely was something that got my attention. I have to tell you that their production we saw of City of Angels was excellent, plenty of talent. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>A young man who has the same voice teacher as my d goes to BOCO. I don't remember exactly how many were "cut", but from what I remember, it is SUBSTANTIAL. He is a sophomore in the program and said MANY of his friends were cut (no attrition; strictly cut from the program. Not to say some other students left of their own choosing, but all his friends were cut). Too scary for me!</p>