<p>John,
Thank the Lord we have you!</p>
<p>I keep telling my students/parents, that it is roughly the same 850 applicants at all these schools. With the large number of programs out there, I believe there is a place for everyone.</p>
<p>See you in Chicago!
xxx,Mary Anna</p>
<p>Thanks John for pointing out the odds on a broader scale, particularly as this year's crop is now immersed in the audition "frenzy" and all the overwhelming thoughts about odds that goes with the process. When folks think about the typical 5% odds at many of these schools, they are not looking at the bigger picture, like you say. If a student who is truly very qualified applies to about 8 schools or so, their odds really become greater than 5% in the total picture. As you state, perhaps a quarter of the applicants are going to get into a slot at these 30 schools. There are applicants who audition who are not quite in the ballpark who won't get in at these schools but for whom there are other options out there to study theater....either lesser known programs, or BA programs, etc. There is some place for everyone. Yes, the elite BFA programs can only take a small percentage. But these very talented applicants can only go to one school and so the top quarter or so, will end up at a pretty well known BFA program. But the applicant pool at some of the programs that are excellent programs but perhaps a tier down in the musical theater reputation world, is a little easier....so someone might get into these programs who could not get into one of the so called top programs. Either the top applicants didn't apply to these or else they may have but if they got in some place with a more reknowned reputation in the field, they MAY have chosen to enroll, thus creating more openings for other talented kids who would have found those elite BFA programs out of reach. I think the truly qualified candidates will get into a BFA program. I think for those just under that, there is STILL a fine place for them to attend.....hopefully they built a reasonable balanced appropriate list of options to which to apply...pretty critical. And yes, it pays to be a boy in this game, lol. </p>
<p>I know it is scary when folks hear the odds but I think if one's list is appropriate for the kid in question, then the student is going to be admitted some place...maybe not his/her top choice but a fine place to go to college. There is a school out there for everyone and there is more than one pathway to success. The college list should be reasonable. Often it is those students who select an inappropriate list of colleges for their credentials and/or an unbalanced one, that then run into problems in spring of senior year. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>You say: "Often it is those students who select an inappropriate list of colleges for their credentials and/or an unbalanced one, that they run into problems in spring of senior year." My question is: How does a 17 year old MT hopeful know what is an appropriate list of college? I mean, I would bet almost all of the hopefuls have: taken voice, dance and acting, have performed as a lead in numerous plays, have honed their craft to the best of their ability, and have been told they are perfectly wonderful. I am new to this forum, and am really trying to help gather information for my D. Her days are filled with academics, rehearsals, teaching, choreographing and singing. She simply doesn't have much spare time so I am trying to learn as much as I can so she can make her own educated decision. I am so grateful to have found this forum. There is a wealth of wonderful information here and I thank you.</p>
<p>Thirdtree, I'd have to know way more about your daughter, which I can't do on a forum, but there are ways of assessing what is a reasonable list of schools for a candidate by looking at lots of factors about a student. Just the little you shared already, sounds like your D may very well be on track for a BFA program but I'd have to know a lot more. But she has excellent grades and you said she has been training for years and is a 'big fish" in your area. I can't say she WILL get in but if she has the background and achievements, skills, and so forth, then she is someone likely in the ballpark. There is more to assessing that but just giving you a general idea. I know with my own child, sure, I was real scared about the odds but I felt confident through various benchmarks that she was on target for being in the applicant pool for the schools on her list. I knew with the long odds, that she'd need a number of schools to even have a chance but I felt that she had a chance to get into at least one. I also counsel some clients who have to have their list modified. If I have a student with minimal training, is always cast in ensemble in every school show and has barely done anything outside of that, isn't selected to highest IN school choir and things on that minimal level, the child is going to have trouble up against kids who have been cast in more significant parts in their background, have had far more training in all three disciplines, have possibly won awards or other achievements or selection into certain groups in their region, etc. If you have trouble breaking out of the pack in your own school, have had minimal training and experience, the list needs to match where you are at. Same with the academic piece which plays a part. I may have a client who has had significant training and has been cast well in his region but has very low academic stats that would make him not even remotely possible to be admitted at certain schools. There is the piece of the kid's interest and which sort of school would fit....BFA, BA, and so forth. A list of targetted schools must reasonably match the student and be balanced. Some students can self assess, some need teachers to help in that way, some might benefit from one summer amongst a very talented pool of kids from a wider range and see what else it out there, and also compare oneself to any students you may know who have gotten into a BFA program in the past. An independent counselor may also be a guide. Even if your kid is a big fish, there are many big fishes applying, so a kid must be made VERY aware of the odds and not count on any one school coming through. A kid must also put MUCHO effort into the applications and the audition prep and so forth. Even kids who have auditioned a lot in their lives have that going for them. A voice or acting coach should also be able to give some idea as to the level of talent. I have seen some very unrealistic people but I also have seen some very talented kids who have accomplished things in musical theater who are applying to appropriate schools and even then, who knows if THEY can get in either. None of it is a sure thing. You can also add BA programs to the list and gamble a bit less. My D has a friend auditioning right now who is very accomplished and talented but her list is only the very top programs and that is scary to me too. </p>
<p>The elite BFA process is not that unlike Ivy League admissions. You can be good enough to be considered but still not get in. However, truthfully one should apply if they have the background to be reasonably considered in the first place. </p>
<p>A counselor or other folks or even yourself, can ascertain if the kid is in the ballpark but there is not much more after that as there are no guarantees. But as I said in some post earlier, the kids who I know who got into BFA programs, truly were not a shock to learn they got in....they were stand outs and accomplished in MT.....not professionals but clearly not lost in the crowd either. And now that my D is IN a BFA program and I have learned things about her classmates whom I didn't know beforehand, they too have similar accomplishments or backgrounds, with little variations. I don't know which state you live in but often there are All State scholarship competitions in some states, or thespian competitions, or even NFAA at a higher level....it is not necessary to WIN these to be admitted to a BFA program, but if your child so happens to, it is just another benchmark of faring amongst a larger talent pool than your local high school. Same with in certain summer programs. These are NOT necessary to be admitted but if you are looking to see how your child stands beyond your school community...these are some examples. Another may be auditioning for regional theater, not just high school theater, or any other type of thing that involves selection of some sort amongst other talented youth. I'm only mentioning those things as you are searching for ways to know if your child may be an appropriate candidate. But if she has the requisite skills, training, some production experience, some achievements, is a very good student, the passion and drive, that can be enough to go for it. If you have doubts about any of those pieces, you can add on non audition based programs....there are several that would provide an excellent theater background. A BFA is not the only route to a career in theater. I know some HIGHLY talented kids who out of CHOICE, who could have very likely gotten into BFA programs, applied to selective BA schools. In fact, one now is the lead in RENT. I know lots of kids who went to well known summer theater programs, won NFAA awards, regional awards, etc. who are or have opted to apply to selective non BFA schools. This could round out a list for someone like your D too if you have any quandry if she is "good enough" for a BFA program. Each person's list must be individualized and tailored to her qualifications, interests, and college criteria. This is possible to do for ANY student. Sometimes, it takes guidance from an outside person or counselor. The person can be a resource in identifying colleges that best "fit" a student's needs, and can evaluate the student's academic, personal, extracurricular and artistic background. Such a person can be more objective and some find that helpful in this overwhelming college process. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Dr John --</p>
<p>I thoroughly enjoyed your post. My dd explained the same thing to me a few months ago, although not nearly as eloquently as you did. As I attempted to explain the odds and encourage her to complete more applications, she said (as only an 18-year old can), "Ma-om, each of these schools is seeing the exact same kids. I know the odds are tough, but the people on CC are way underestimating the admit rates, especially when you factor in the number of kids with no experience, who probably make up at least half the "apply numbers" you're reading." </p>
<p>Sometimes, a little knowledge can be a bad thing. My fear is that CC scares off kids who have as good a chance as the next person. </p>
<p>I'm the researcher in the family. I sometimes worry that I discouraged my dd from reaching too high -- all because I "know too much" and I'm trying to protect her from disappointment. Grrrr ... being a parent is no easy job!</p>
<p>In any event, thank you for your post. I think we should make it a sticky!</p>
<p>-- Jersey44</p>
<p>Susan, </p>
<p>Thank you SO MUCH for your thorough response to me. It was most helpful and gives me a good basis for conversation with my D. I think I have to let go of my fear of my daughter facing disappointment. Should that happen, she is a grounded, intelligent young woman who has done so well in school that she has many, many options. Indeed, that was her intent when she started high school. She has always been mature for her age and she knows the odds, so I guess she was thinking she would make sure that she didn't close any doors by not doing well academically. </p>
<p>I know that she is happiest when she is in the MT process, start to finish, and I cannot let my fear stop her from attempting to do what makes her happiest in life. </p>
<p>It is very kind of you to share your knowledge on this site. Although some of what I read (going through past posts), mostly it is comforting to know that other parents share the same concerns and have some of the same questions. </p>
<p>Gratefully, </p>
<p>thirdtree </p>
<p>P.S. In case you're wondering what the heck "thirdtree" is all about, my daughter befriended a director with whom she had worked on several occasions. After a joking discussion, he told her "you better watch it or 'third tree on the left' is all you'll ever get with me. We found it amusing and it stuck as her nickname. Thanks again for your help.</p>
<p>I'm glad everyone liked the post. CollegeMom, you may want to pick up my post and the relevant answers and put it in the "Admissions Odds" thread. But I'll leave that up to you.</p>
<p>musicalthtrmom, you asked about the numbers for men last year. Here they are:</p>
<p>MT: 72 auditioned, 9 received first round offers (12.5%), 4 accepted (which is about what we expected). We made one additional offer. Total of 5 offers to 72 candidates, or 15.3%.</p>
<p>Acting: 25 auditioned, 4 received first round offers (16%), 2 accepted. We made no additonal offers, so that's where it ended up.</p>
<p>Hope this helps.</p>
<p>Thanks Doctorjohn...it really helps to have these numbers to keep things in perspective. We appreciate your candor...as always!</p>
<p>Also, in regards to the people being "big fishes" in their hometown. I go to a relatively small school. There are two big high schools (4000+) that have incredible performing arts departments. My school, a small college prep school (415 approx.) has a decent performing arts department. I have never gotten a lead in a show at my school (even my senior year). I have never won a contest for talent in my town. I've never even won a talent show. But, I worked my hardest to prepare for my auditions and for college in general. It paid off, as most of you know (I'm going to cap 21). </p>
<p>Why am I writing this? No, not to brag, but to encourage people out there who aren't prolific in their hometown. I never thought that the boy from a small town in Indiana whose never been the lead in a school show, and only done two community shows, would be going to a top BFA program. I want everyone who isn't the star to know that it's ok. Put your mind to your audition, work hard, be the best you can be, and you will end up doing well. Be confident in yourself, because that will show in your audition. Don't be discouraged by the odds and the other people that you read about/see in your hometown. What matters is how bad you want it and how good you yourself can be. </p>
<p>Chris</p>
<p>Chris- I'm glad to know I'm not the only one in that situation.</p>
<p>Its so scary to hope that you, who have only known what it is like to be an underdog, must make the top cut in order to follow your dreams. But, you push onward, and hope that someone out there see's something in you that the people in your school have been blind towards.</p>
<p>I've succeded outside of school- vocal all state, leads at my performing arts summer camp, a solo concert at school where I made sure everyone saw what they missed all these years. I got told by people I had never met I stole the show that night. Its just... the rejection happens on a daily basis, while the success comes sparingly. But when it does, the previous failures make the applause all the sweeter. </p>
<p>I guess thats showbuisness!</p>
<p>chrisnoo and ThespianDreams - </p>
<p>Bravo! Bravo! </p>
<p>I love your attitudes! Go get'em!</p>
<p>Chris....I am SO glad you posted your story!! It needs to be told!! I think there is a very good chance that when I was answering one person about how to assess if someone is in the "ballpark" for a BFA admittance, that answer can be easily misconstrued. I hope I can clarify one thing that I realize could be a misinterpretation of what I wrote to the previous poster. That is...when someone was asking how can I tell if my kid has what it takes to be a competitive applicant for a BFA program...I was mentioning some benchmarks that might help....and that if one has done some of those things and through additional self assessment and any evaluation by others, you might be able to assume that the student is a viable candidate. HOWEVER, one NEED NOT have attained those things....be it leads in shows, awards/achievements/selections, have X number of years of training, etc. People CAN and DO get in who don't have that same list of qualifications. So, while IF you have done many of the things I said, you likely should apply knowing that while nothing is guaranteed, you are a reasonable or appropriate candidate. But the reverse should not be assumed....that if you haven't achieved or done those things, that you would not get in or shouldn't apply.....many kids have raw talent or less years of training or haven't played significant parts in shows, etc. and WILL get in. So, this is not to discourage those kids. I think the first group of attributes/training/achievements type of applicants may have a stronger chance in terms of odds, but others will and do get in who've done less. It's like regular college admissions. For some kids, a school is a reach and for another kid, that school is more of a match but both candidates may get into the same school because both have great things to offer. There are SOME very inexperienced seniors who likely need to modify or adjust their college list to make sure the schools are on target, the list is balanced, and there are other options, perhaps some non audition schools. Each candidate is different and building a list will vary for each student. However, your post clearly points out that you do not HAVE to have those various benchmarks to be accepted into a BFA program. I hope people realize that. But for those who do have some "benchmarks", it is one thing to gauge their chances and so I was trying to say to someone who has been a "big fish" in a smaller pond, perhaps that student is a viable candidate. It is harder to gauge for someone with very little experience but that candidate may very well get in as well. </p>
<p>It's about the talent and skills, not what is on the resume. The thing about the resume is simply that if you have stuff on it, you likely have been attaining skills along the way because of that training or theatrical experiences...so you don't need "credits" to get in but often one who has done various things over the years in training and production work, has been gaining skills along the way. The experiences aren't needed on paper to get in but the experiences have been a valuable part of the candidate's growth. </p>
<p>I do know kids who are in MT programs who have not been stand outs or haven't done a real real lot but I know more in the programs who have achieved and trained in this field to some degree (that varies of course). You don't need professional experience at all to get in by the way. It is just that the kids that I know who are going to these programs, tended to stand out in their local communities prior to college....but you don't HAVE to. As far as the small town....trust me, my kid comes from a town of 1700, her roomie at CAP also comes from another rural town in our state....another girl from our HS is also in a BFA program that is known, and another two kids I know from our region are as well.....very small town kids. No youth theaters, no acting programs, no performing arts high schools. However, each of them had trained a lot and have been in many shows in significant roles and have achieved various awards and selections in the region. All to various degrees. None were kids, however, that were never "noticed" or just came to like MT in high school (though that is STILL possible to get in if that is one's circumstance). I think there are more kids in BFA programs, however, who have had some training and some experiences of note, than those who have done very little. Besides the training and experiences, they are ready to embark or make the decision to enter a BFA program, having juggled a very full and busy life with theater and school and training and have developed a passion and drive that is needed to really do a BFA program and it is not a passing interest. A BFA program is not right for all kids, actually. I know some kids who just do not have the work ethic to be contemplating a BFA program. It is no wonder that in some BFA programs, there are kids who leave the program and perhaps were not really sure what they were getting into. There is that element to weigh as well, in terms of who is an appropriate candidate for this type of college degree. For some students, a BA degree program is just more suitable for various reasons. And I'm not just talking talent. </p>
<p>Thespian Dreams, from what you are describing, you have had many significant achievements....go for it....be confident.</p>
<p>Thirdtree....you are right that this process can be overwhelming and yes, when you see some very talented kids get rejected at some BFA programs, it is a scary thought. As a parent, it is one of the first significant times in your child's life when you cannot control the outcome or assure things will work out the way your chlid wants/hopes. But it sounds like your D knows what she wants, has worked hard and you are supportive...you just have to forge ahead....realize and be aware that yes, the odds are tough ones but she will create a well targetted list of schools and if the list is appropriate, she'll be going to college, you just don't know where yet. But there are many schools where a kid can be happy that will be a good fit......and when the odds are tough ones at very selective schools (such as BFA programs), you have to be realistic and not pin your hopes on one or two schools but have an array of schools that you truly like and something should work out. Build in safeties or options and then forge ahead. We all did and pretty much everyone I know here and in regular life.....their kids do end up some place and usually they are pretty happy where they are at and if they aren't, some transfer. The process is a jittery one but it really all works out in one way or another. Afterall, many of us are still on the forum to tell the tale....WE got through it....you guys will too, I promise!</p>
<p>I'm switching topics from this discussion, but today I bought a magazine - Kaplan / Newsweek America's Hottest Colleges, New 2006 Edition. It has a small amount of info on each of "America's 367 Most Interesting Schools", and many of the schools discussed here are listed. It also features more detail on "America's 25 Hottest Colleges" and in that section, I found 3 colleges sometimes discussed on this forum for MT - Elon University, Indiana University - Bloomington, and Muhlenberg College. Also, for Susan, Brown University is in the 25 hottest list. These discussions are general about the colleges and not specific to performing arts.</p>
<p>Lastly, found by my MT son, on a chart called "picky, picky, picky", a list of the most selective schools, Juilliard School is listed as #1 (lowest % accepted) followed by Yale, Harvard, etc. For Susan - Brown is #10 on that list. I would venture to guess that if MT programs were isolated, many of them would come out on top.</p>
<p>I had a quick question about how colleges choose their students. I thought maybe doctorjohn or someone who knows the inner-workings of the system could answer this. Do most colleges try to have an even number of guys and girls in their MT programs or, since there are so many more girls, are the numbers lopsided?</p>
<p>Danimal,
While this could differ from school to school and you'd have to check with each BFA program, I'll give you the general answer. A majority of BFA programs do have a balance of males and females in their programs. Afterall, they need both to cast their shows. This field needs both too. For instance, at Otterbein, they accept four girls and four boys into the BFA program. At UMich, usually they take 10 girls and 10 boys. You are right that there are SO many more girls auditioning than boys. Therefore, when, for example, you learn that a program has a 5% admit rate, conceivably the admit rate for girls could be 3% and the admit rate for boys could be 7% (just making that up as an example but would have to now how many of each applied and in fact, the difference in admit rate between girls and boys might be greater than I gave in the example). So, girls have more difficult odds of being admitted. This is truly the norm at most BFA programs. There could be programs that have more girls than boys but all programs are going to want males for their shows so the lopsided part is not going to be huge even if there are more girls at certain programs.</p>
<p>It gets worse at CMU. Like every other school, way more girls are applying to the program. However, they tend to take more BOYS into their BFA program, rather than an equal number of each. They told us that at auditions. It had something to do with the idea of that there was more work for males in the field (their words, not mine). For example, last year for MT, they took 9 boys and 3 girls. So, on top of it being tougher odds for girls in general, they were REAL tough at that school. </p>
<p>Sorry this is not the answer you likely wanted to hear. This is one time when it sure is easier to be a boy!! </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Actually at UMich, while they may ideally want 10 boys and 10 girls (although I don't ever remember them discussing gender when we went through the process - just the fact that their ideal class size is 20) acceptances are NOT ruled by gender issues. While they want boys and girls in each class (DUH!!) they will accept the most highly qualified candidates even if that means skewing for gender. And they will not "compromise" on quality in order to even the gender of a class. Here's the split for the four current MT classes at UM:</p>
<p>Seniors - 10 boys, 9 girls
Juniors - 17 boys, 12 girls
Sophomores - 14 boys, 11 girls
Freshmen - 14 boys, 7 girls</p>
<p>so you are saying that the boys that audition for UMich are more qualified than the girls?</p>
<p>Tripletreat - </p>
<p>That's not what I am saying. I AM saying that to my understanding, they have apparently determined in the last three years worth of auditions that more boys have met their standards for admission than have girls. They too have many more girls auditioning than boys. It would be harder to make this assumption based purely on the numbers actually in each class (as I have done here) at other schools. I am able to say this for UM because their yield is so high, i.e., over the last three years almost 94% of the students offered admission to UM have accepted the offer (76 of 81). At other schools where the yield is not as high, the gender ratio they end up with can be in large measure a product of who accepts their offers and what method they use to fill offers not accepted.</p>
<p>Hope the math isn't too confusing, but I believe that it does explain my understanding of the situation at UM. Make sense?</p>
<p>PS For all of you REAL number junkies out there, the number of 76 students who accepted offers in the last three years is one off from the 75 students I listed by class in the post above because this year one accepted student had to drop out before classes even started for health reasons. I believe that person will return and join next year's freshman class.</p>
<p>Theatermom - Now that I think about it I think I can see how that happens. I think maybe boys have more social barriers to going into MT or even straight drama than girls. I hate to admit it, but there are some assumptions I make about boys when they tell me they are into theatre. They also might tend to have more of a problem with their parents LETTING them go into it. I know my own parents just shrug off the bad career prospects. It's like "Your pretty. You can marry somebody that can make a living." haha Boys usually can't do that (at least not right now.) There is even a very talented boy in my class whose parents wouldn't even let audition for any BFA programs. What I am getting at is that maybe the schools are mostly only seeing the best/most committed boys and ALL the girls. Just a random theory.</p>
<p>Tripletreat,</p>
<p>That's an interesting conjecture and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some truth in it. Not sure we could ever prove it. It may explain why the median quality of talent amongst boys may be higher than that of girls (IF you could find a way to quantify a largely subjective assessment) but I'm not sure that it explains why, if my understanding of why UM acceptances have been as they have for the past three years is true, why more girls, given the greater number that audition, are not meeting this undefined standard. </p>
<p>Interesting......I have my suspicions but am not prepared to voice them here.</p>
<p>Thanks for the thought provoking response.</p>