In my area there is not a nursing shortage but rather hiring freezes at most large hospitals. I know plenty of nurses & PA’s who are ready to go but can’t get jobs because of that. And there are many currently in nursing school & PA school who will need jobs in the coming years.
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This seems to be a bit of a pivot from your earlier post.
“So employees are free to refuse vaccines, or refuse to work in person, but either can be grounds for termination.”
As a corporate lawyer you are now confirming that an employer won’t universally have grounds for termination if you have medical or religious exemptions.
Religious views are personal, fluid and evolving won’t it be very hard to contest such claims of religious exemption and if contested open up employers to discrimination claims?
Given that so many schools have mandatory vax rules for on campus participation, and employers will be compelled by law to find accommodations for unvaccinated exempted employees won’t those accommodations likely be in the form of continued remote work?
You previously stated the standard imposed upon employees is that they can’t demand accommodations “such that It can not fundamentally alter the nature of the work.” Given that remote teaching has been the standard for the last 18 months that argument would be legally tenuous at best I suspect. The current nature of teaching is in current practice remote.
Imagine trying to defend the following fact pattern as an employer;
- We mandated that you take an emergency use authorized vaccine to be a part of our educational community.
- You declined to do so because of your deeply held religious beliefs which is an accepted EEOC option.
- Being that you are unvaccinated we will not allow you back to work in person, or you have health concerns about returning unvaccinated, or a local mandate precludes you from returning unvaxed (all likely scenarios and or responses).
- We refused to accommodate your work from home request because in spite of you having done it over the last 18 months we don’t see it as “real” teaching.
- So you are fired.
I can’t imagine a good lawyer that would advise termination given the potential legal costs, potential liability, bad PR and impact on colleague engagement over what would amount to a wrongful termination based upon religious discrimination claim.
If employees basis their non vax posture on religious beliefs they will be extremely hard to terminate.
Gainesville Sun story on UF Covid policy. Kinda shocking.
Students will be on their own to find off campus housing if they test positive. I assume that students will simply choose never to get tested!
Like for many chronic auto-immune issues, it might take years to confirm anything about Long-Covid. It’s certainly not the only potentially debilitating chronic condition triggered by a virus that’s out there, and the symptoms mimic many other auto-immune disorders. Auto-immune problems are pretty common and some of them are quite debilitating without care and management. Maybe those suffering long-Covid can look into other recognized disorders that have the same symptoms and try to go that route so that they can attempt established therapies and have more success with medical leave requests.
Most of your point is that the risk of a debilitating chronic condition is now higher for everyone, and that most won’t have the funds socked away to deal with it long-term. This may indeed be the case. IMO, it comes down to what we choose to worry about.
Can’t really comment on this one - though it appears that your concerns and frustrations run deeper than just “Long-Covid.”
Most I know in R1-Land or other lands would consider it to be a no-brainer that they will help provide care if and when needed - whatever it takes. That’s how most people I know would respond. Sure, it can be draining. Personally speaking, I and many others I know (including a good number of academics!) have special needs kids who require constant attention and intervention. I guess most of us feel that just comes with the territory of being a parent and we don’t discuss casually because to us it’s just part of life. But also the support in this community for parents in this situation is just superb and that, of course, can make the difference. When I get together with other moms of special needs kids we talk a LOT about them and about the challenges, for sure!
Wow - this has NOT been what I’ve observed in the least, and I’ve seen some pretty bad things happen to academics in their prime - terrified spouse, little ones at home, the whole works. Obviously, ADA means that there will be reasonable accommodations but that’s the minimum. It’s also about continuing to include the person in department meetings (assuming he/she is tt), giving them responsibilities that they can handle, and so forth. Most seem to treat them how they themselves would want to be treated. However, someone with a chronic disability - especially one that hit suddenly - probably does still feel some bitterness and isolation. It’s a hard burden to carry.
I’d heard some rumblings via acquaintances at our flagship that a few were floored by the requirement that they return to their offices and prepare to teach in person. One had sold her house and was planning to move out of state but remain on faculty and just do everything remotely. Oops. I believe all of those issues have been referred to the office of disability for case by case resolution. Most seemed eager to return, even before the university imposed the vaccine mandate.
Your idea of a zoom kiosk is great! I’ve had to hit our county and other gov’t offices lately and everything is by reservation. I LOVE it - beats waiting in line forever.
Really, I am not going to debate the religious accommodation laws with you. They almost always narrowly pertain only to dress/grooming/flexible schedule shifts. If you are that interested, you are welcome to research them yourself, as there is extensive case law on the subject, and no, merely asserting a sincere belief doesn’t even begin to satisfy the requirements for religious exemption. Some employers may voluntarily offer a bit more leeway on the vax issue, but I would not count on it.
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About UF
Once a dorm resident has tested positive, it’s too late, the rest of that floor, block, however it’s designed, have been exposed already .
A better policy might just be to have the whole section isolate and free up the fire/emergency exit for their open use, to separate them from the rest of the building. Have food from the canteen delivered and tell them to hand wash Laundry instead of using the communal laundry room.
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I don’t know what parents expect colleges to do to ‘care for’ sick students. In the past, if a student had an infectious disease like mumps or measles, the student had to leave campus immediately. There was not a special isolation dorm and meals delivered. Last year I thought many schools went well beyond what they were required to do to keep students on campus during isolation/quarantine periods. Some schools could because they had so much extra dorm space due to some students being 100% remote.
If schools have to set aside entire dorms for isolation/quarantine, the students are going to have to pay for that. Should there be an extra $200 fee on the bill for ‘isolation care’ that the student may not ever use? Should off campus students pay it too? Should it be like a hotel that student pay for if they need it?
I think schools are in a no-win situation. They are dealing with a city size population and don’t have a lot of control over the citizens coming and going. At UF, the freshman (most dorm residents are freshman) can pick classes that are available online if they need to miss class. They can get vaccinated. They can form groups to get notes or other missed information from classes. The students do have some control.
A parent needing to drive 10 hours to pick up a sick child is one reason people choose to go to colleges closer to home. This is something that goes into picking a school far away. I experienced it when my daughter had the flu and couldn’t take care of herself very well. It’s tough being 2000 miles away and getting the call “Mom, I think I’m dying.”
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They should consider relocating to somewhere in the 90% of the country where they will be hired.
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First off thanks again for amending your earlier comments to include the EEOC exemptions. There actually is no case law specific to Covid vaccination at this time.
The SHRM which is the preeminent HR certification and society for Human Resources Professionals nationally has provided the following guidance…
“DETERMINE WHETHER THE EMPLOYEE HAS A SINCERELY HELD RELIGIOUS BELIEF
Title VII requires employers to accommodate only those religious beliefs that are “sincerely held.” Because the definition of religion is broad and protects beliefs and practices with which the employer may be unfamiliar, the employer should ordinarily assume that an employee’s request for religious accommodation is based on a sincerely held religious belief. If, however, the employer has an objective basis for questioning either the religious nature or the sincerity of a particular belief or practice, the employer would be justified in seeking additional supporting information.”
This default position of accepting claims of “sincere religious belief” at face value has been the approach outlined to me by several financial industry trade groups and the advice of several prominent NYC employment law firms.
If you anticipate the religious exception being successfully challenged specific to Covid can you share on what grounds given the lack of precedence? Again, I know an employer can challenge the exemption but specific to an EMU (and or new vaccine) are you really anticipating employers to to so and the courts to uphold?
Not debating or saying you are wrong (I am not a practicing corporate lawyer) just seemingly at odds with the lawyers and HR professionals I am hearing from.
I agree and was glad that my kids chose to stay 3 hours or less by car. My oldest had mono, flu & strep her 1st semester freshman year (all before Thanksgiving). I would pick her up on Friday afternoon and bring her home to rest - back on Sunday night (couldn’t afford to miss classes). She studied abroad one summer and was hit by a motorbike in the Netherlands while crossing in a crosswalk in front of her residence hall. She was taken by ambulance to the medical center but luckily didn’t hit her head and only had contusions on her hip and road rash. Imagine getting that call when you’re thousands of miles away.
With all the Covid uncertainty, I would be very hesitant to say yes to a plane flight college. I remember reading all of the distress last fall on the UNC-CH parent board from parents who had just traveled across country to drop their kids off at UNC, only to have to come back and get them a week later (and the immense cost involved in having to do all of that, last minute). I’m not confident that won’t happen again.
Because you are a newer user (and might not be aware of private messages), I would encourage you to take the back and forth legal talk to PMs. There is an undercurrent of challenge and animus to these particular posts (especially when you are addressing certain posters) that I would prefer to avoid…yet I want to continue reading this thread, and generally appreciate your posts.
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They certainly could, but a big reason why they went through programs in this state, and neighboring border states is so they could serve those communities and still be close to their families.
I believe the poster has omitted directly relevant and substantive info while asserting themselves as an expert in the profession. I don’t doubt the qualifications or abilities.
I have asked politely for them to correct it or clarify via PM and been responded to rudely and with animosity, with no public response.
I do not want the casual reader not to understand their absolute right to claim a religious exemption. Thank you.
Thank you for the suggestion.
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As I told you, Please do not attempt to practice law without a license, or further derail this thread. There is no “absolute right to a religious exemption”, all accommodations are narrow and case-specific. The topic of this thread iss college openings in the next school year. Back to that.
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As I politely responded, you don’t know my education, profession or experience. Not being a practicing lawyer doesn’t mean I haven’t passed the bar or attended law school or invalidate my opinion.
I remain of the belief that those reading this thread would benefit from understanding your theory under which employers would challenge the religious exemption as it relates to Covid vaccination given your statements that it wouldn’t hold up. Those declarations are what brought the thread off subject not my requests that you clarify or support them.
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If students or faculty receive a religious exemption, that doesn’t mean they can just go on with their lives at the college without changing anything. They might be required to wear masks everywhere, including outside. They may not be able to share a dorm room or office with certain people (medical conditions, those who object to the unvaccinated status). They may not be allowed to teach in very small classrooms or meet one-to-one in a small office.
ADA and other laws require accommodations, not complete freedom to ignore the rights of others or safety regulations (religious dress that might be caught in machinery, for ex.)
I don’t know if a school could require unvaccinated students to all live in the same dorm, or force students to accept an unvaccinated roommate. Can they make them sit together in a classroom? Can they be restricted from Prof X’s course because Prof X is extremely vulnerable to covid? Can the gym be restricted to only vaccinated people or certain sports be limited to only vaccinated players? Time will tell.
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There is nothing in Terms of Service that says you need to respond to every post. There is something that says this is not a debating society. Please keep that in mind.
For users who demand proof of statements made on an anonymous website, I am reminded of one of the classics of American cinema, The Treasure of the Sierra Madre. “Badges? We ain’t got no badges. We don’t need no badges. I don’t have to show you any stinking badges.”
Every user on this thread is an adult. They can make up their own minds. The corrolary is that nobody’s minds will be changed as the result of any points made on this site.
And finally, the topic the thread is colleges. Discussion of what an employer can or should do, unless said employer is a university, is a discussion best held on another thread.
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As an update to this, S is fine. After his apparent exposure (Day 0) he appears to have passed it on to another vaccinated friend on Day 2. He had symptoms on the night of Day 4, did a rapid test that was positive on the morning of Day 5, got the confirming PCR test result the next morning. His roommate left on the morning of Day 5 and is still negative on both rapid and PCR tests.
As far as quarantine housing goes, his roommate was offered a temporary on campus room for the week (until S’s 10 days from symptoms are up). But whether that will still be an option for others once term starts is unclear.
My takeaway is that catching the Delta variant is likely to be incredibly random and uncertain, his roommate’s exposure was clearly much greater than the friend who caught it. Maybe we’ll ultimately find some people are just more susceptible than others.
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So back to college in the Fall with Covid….
I agree that one takes more risks (in this case Medical) if a student is heading to college far away from home. Our S will be 11 hours away and that is why we were more comfortable choosing the school largely Bc they require vaccines of all staff, teachers and professors.
Sadly, UF doesn’t require vaccines. Thankfully, our S won’t be attending UF. But we live in Gainesville so as a local we track what UF is doing. And right now, it’s not been favorable to keeping the community as safe as they could IMO.
Our hospitals are swamped with Covid patients. (No pun intended.) Including Shands which is literally right down the hill from UF. Our physicians are begging people to get vaccinated. The Shands CEO keeps putting out releases to get vaccinated. And, Our school board is one of two in the state to defy the Gov’s orders about mandating masks for K-12.
And UF says you’re on your own if you get positive to find off campus housing for two weeks yet UF won’t even mandate mask wearing on campus not even indoors. It’s just “recommended”.
I’m concerned that once football season starts and 80,000 fans are at the Swamp, we will have even higher rates of Covid and hospitalizations.
And good luck if you’re a student finding a hotel room during football season if you are ordered off campus for 2 weeks.
That’s why I firmly believe students won’t be testing at all if they have any symptoms. And honestly, I don’t blame them Bc why would they want to then deal with the consequences?
Just my Sunday afternoon thoughts as I procrastinate S21’s packing. 
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