This has been something I’ve been meaning to ask for a while now. I have this friend who I occasionally talk to, and one day he was saying how he was going to take all AP for his senior year. I told him that it wouldn’t be wise for his GPA, but he responded saying, “I’m taking rigorous classes for the learning experience, not grade wise, I’m sure colleges will understand. If I challenge myself and fail now, then in college it’ll be easier to pick myself back up whenever I mess up there.”
That left me thinking for a while. Colleges obviously would rather see you do OK in a AP/Honors class than do extremely well in a blow off class, but therein still lies the question, Is it better to challenge yourself, despite your GPA falling?
From my experiences, I have gotten a couple B minuses in a few honors classes, and even though I was close to a C+, taking those honors classes proved to be more beneficial towards my study habits. I can’t say proudly that I have all A’s today, but I too enjoy challenging myself to a very minuscule extent. Would colleges understand if one were to take multiple rigorous classes and have their GPA fall? I think they would, but perhaps in a college essay this mentality of learning more vs grades can be noted.
What do you guys think? Should a class, no matter how rigorous, be taken for the sake of learning, and not so much emphasis on grades? Of course, getting a D or F is where the line could be drawn, but still, I think this debatable. My parents certainly agree grades are most important above all else, but to me I’m starting to see how learning hard material early on can be beneficial to one’s future success, and despite the grade damage, it can help them learn how to pick themselves back up later on in life. Do you agree?
You need to challenge yourself enough to have a “most demanding” schedule within your school and perform well enough to earn a good GPA (3.8+ pending no significant grade inflation or grade deflation). There are so many highly qualified applicants inside the classroom that even a mediocre transcript really hurts.
I’ve heard admissions officers say that you should take the most rigorous course load that you can be successful in. For many people not aiming for the most competitive (Ivy and equivalent) schools , reducing course rigor a bit, maybe in a subject not of particular interest, to get a better GPA could be worth considering.
Well yes it is pat to say take the hardest and do great. But come on. That isn’t what this poster is asking. I think it really depends on the school and other aspects of the student’s application. Most schools are simply relying on GPA and scores. But the top schools are different. And even among them there are differences. I think many of the top schools want to see you can get out of your comfort zone and take academic risks. So low-ish grade, say a “C” in the context of an otherwise stellar application would not necessarily take you out of the running at one of the very top schools if it were clear that it was a class that was likely to be a stretch but you were willing to go for it anyway. And some schools would rather see that then a curriculum with classes carefully chosen to get great grades-with straight As. MIT comes to mind this way.
C’s are trouble at the very top schools.
OP, if you want a tippy top college that will stretch you, you need to stretch in hs. And since the competition for these schools is fierce, they can expect top performance. Otoh, if stretching is more philosophical, you can go for it and get a B and plenty of super colleges will agree with you. But still, it’s always good to show both rigor and top grades in your potential major. That’s my serious answer. In real life, I agree with the challenge for the higher level of learning, assuming one does learn, not just sit there confused.
@lostaccount The title of the post is “College’s perspective on grades.” The simple and truthful answer for highly selective schools is to take hard classes and do well in them.
I think it depends on the colleges you will be applying to and how much you can typically handle without difficulty. E Some colleges place more emphasis on unweighted GPA and test scores than others. In general, if a student has taken several APs already, then I think taking 3 more in senior year is enough. You should only take more than that if you feel sure you will make As and enjoy the subjects. Each student is different. Some get through their homework very quickly, and others take hours and hours to finish the same amount of work. There will be plenty of time in college to challenge yourself and burn the midnight oil. You don’t want to have to worry about gaining admission to a great college based mainly on your sophomore and junior year, and then having it rescinded because of overloading senior year. You need to reserve extra time senior year for doing a good job on your applications, and also to enjoy club activities, etc. As an example, I know of one very bright engineering student at Berkeley who said he took 7 APs total and then was surprised to find out that many of his engineering classmates had taken a lot fewer.
It really depends on how selective. My younger son got into U of Chicago, Vassar and Tufts with quite a few B’s and B+'s in Latin, math and science. He took a challenging schedule and did not shy away from Calc BC and AP Physics C even though his main interest was history.
I love the idea of challenging yourself in courses you might not get an A in. There are plenty of good colleges that will accept you, just not the single digit acceptance ones.
@mathmom I think U of Chicago might be one of those with a single digit acceptance rate. Congratulations to you and your son. It must have been fun for him to have great choices. I do suspect he also had stellar test scores to go with his very challenging course load.
It wasn’t then (5 years ago now) - the EA acceptance that year was over 20% and the regular in the low teens. He had a nearly perfect CR score but both math and writing were 100 points lower. He really sold himself well, and I believe he had stellar recommendations. He did much, much better than we expected.
I agree with this. I wonder how much learning goes on with a D or F. But I do think students should push themselves. The ultimate goal of HS is to LEARN, not necessarily to get into a specific college.
My D2 got into UChicago with several Bs on her transcript, 2 years ago. Yes, she had great test scores. Most of the Bs were in her nemesis class, French (the only class where she ever had a tutor, and that helped drag her up to a B). She picked a college with no foreign language requirement.
@intparent If you don’t mind revealing, how much exactly do you mean by “several?”
On a related note (and don’t want to hijack this thread), do you feel that taking a Java course and getting a B would be that detrimental to the non-STEM inclined student? Do colleges view it as they would another foreign language, or would they see it as a STEM course, or as an elective?
I don’t remember… her unweighted GPA was a 3.7, though. I feel like she had Bs in both semesters of Honors Bio, and maybe one somewhere along the way in math. She got in everyplace she applied, including Swarthmore and Harvey Mudd. She had great test scores and interesting ECs. These colleges aren’t looking for perfect grades – they want to know that you can do the work, but then they are seeking genuinely interested and interesting people. Grade grubbing isn’t really rewarded, unless they can see that you are intellectually curious as well.
I live in an area of the country in which many of the schools have become overly competitive. Because of this, my son’s school tells the parents at AP night that it is best to take no more than 3 APs at a time. The kids are not forbidden to take more, but must seek special permission. The school is trying to combat anxiety and depression that they feel has resulted from many kids thinking they ought to take on a heavy workload in order to match their peers. The school tries to persuade the parents that this is not necessary. The school wants the kids to have plenty of time for extracurriculars and for getting adequate sleep. The counselors point out that many times the number of college-level courses the high schoolers are taking exceeds a normal college schedule. I personally see no virtue in taking on a college-level workload while in high school. What’s the rush? It is impressive, but, no, I don’t think kids should be signing up for all APs senior year. Yes, they should take courses that are tough and challenging, but they should take them a few at a time so that they have time to master the material successfully and still have time left over for clubs, sports, and personal pursuits. The challenge should be in the quality and depth of learning, not in trying to find enough hours in the day.
I concur with Intparent. My S took a total of 9 APs (Calc AB, Bio, Chem, Physics, Spanish, Russian, USH, Lit, Lang) throughout high school and received a mix of As and Bs as final grades. He also got into UChicago among other schools. He was busy in high school but never to the point of anxiety, depression, or anything negative. I think every student is different and his/her ability to handle a heavy AP courseload depends on individual factors. The problem lies in that students and parents don’t know whether the student can handle it before hand.
I believe that students should take classes that interest and challenge them though they may not necessarily excel at them. Case in point - I chose to take Math HL for my IB Diploma (which is generally only taken by those considering engineering etc. for university) because I enjoy math and I wanted the challenge. Although I did eventually switch down to Math SL due to problems with content understanding, I feel like my time in HL was well worth it and that I learned a lot - not just about math- from the experience.
Furthermore, I think the admissions mantra “take the hardest courses AND get good grades” at the tippy top schools is because they are looking for exceptional students to fill their colleges with, and exceptional students are often able to do what they love both successfully and at a higher level. It is the motivated and bright - but not exceptional - kids who are then “forced” to choose between a) interest in a subject/lower grades and b) less interest/better grades in an attempt to compete with the exceptional students for a space at these colleges.
There was a thread related to this a while back talking about “Zoes” (Exceptional and Motivated), “Floes” (Bright but more laid back) and “Does” (Bright/Hard-working but super competitive).
