Colleges, what do you think?

College Majors Music Major
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<p>Hi all. Im a senior in HS right now, and i'm still trying to figure out where I want to go. I play the violin, and I definitely know that I want to major in Music. I want to stay in state (California), and I want to apply to schools that are affordable AND have good music programs. If there are any students who are currently attending these schools, or have been to these schools, or are parents of students attending these schools, I WOULD LOVE to know about what you think about these schools, in terms of their music programs. I'm looking mostly for schools with: good string programs, good orchestra, good teachers, and affordableness.</p>

<p>Here's the list:
1. UCLA
2. USC
3. Colburn conservatory
3. CSULB
4. Chapman University
5. SF Conservatory
6. Pepperdine </p>

<p>As of now, these are the only schools I can think of, if you know any other schools in CA that are good (music wise) I would love to know.
Thanks so much for you help! I really appreciate it.</p>

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<p>It’s hard to know which schools would be best for you, as we know nothing about your playing ability. Have you been preparing for auditions and your pre-screening videos already? Have you looked at the audition requirements of the schools on your list? Does your teacher have a recommendation? For instance, one doesn’t usually see Pepperdine and Colburn in the same list. There are plenty more schools in California where you could major in music performance. Just off the top of my head: CSU Northridge, San Francisco State, Univ. of Redlands, UC Santa Barbara, University of the Pacific, CSU Humboldt, Chico, Fresno. But a list doesn’t make sense until one knows your level of playing and preparation. Money is the last thing to consider, after you’ve applied, and been accepted.</p>

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<p>Ditto what Spiritmanager said, about a list with both Colburn and Pepperdine. It’s difficult even to pass the prescreen at Colburn. Have you talked this over with your teacher?</p>

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<p>I think you need to talk to your teacher about this, because as GH and SpiritM said, your list is all over the place. Colburn is as competitive as most any school out there, in large part because it is a full free ride, USC strings on violin is extremely competitive, UCLA has a pretty high level music program and is very competitive, SF conservatory likewise is up there, the rest would be on a very different tier or tiers. Put it this way, if you are talking Colburn, USC, UCLA, and the SF conservatory you better be at a level that would get you into places like Juilliard, or near that level. </p>

<p>As others have said, where you apply will be based on your playing level, where you are. If you are a senior in high school you should right now pretty much have your audition rep in place, and be working on pre screening videos that the top level programs I mentioned require, and that has to be done by December 1st. The fact that you are asking this in fall of Senior year is not a good sign to me, kids trying to get into that level of program will have had the answers a long time ago and would have talked to their teacher about it. Those schools admissions will be based on your playing ability in an audition, no matter how good you are academically, and the audition is generally not something you can pull together in a couple of months. </p>

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<p>@spiritmanager @glassharmonica @‌musicprnt Thank you all for your constructive criticism. I do realize that it could have been a shock, that i had written Colburn and Pepperdine on the same list. I feel as though I have not given enough information about myself.</p>

<p>The reason why I wrote this post, was so that I could get any last minute ideas about colleges and/or advice. As of now, I am sure about where I am going to apply, UCLA, USC, CSULB, Chapman, and possibly Colburn. Yes, I have looked over all the required audition music, I am just about ready to record my pre-screening tape (that will happen by the end of this month), I am playing, Paganini caprice 20, Mendelssohn Violin Concerto 1 Mvmt, and the Bach Sonata 1 Adagio and Fuge. So the question I am asking is not, can I get into these colleges, the question is, do these schools have a good music program, and what are your opinions about these music programs. I am also looking for different schools in CA, so that I can have back ups to apply to. Yes I have been talking to my private teacher about this, and he only pushes me to UCLA (at least in CA), so I just wanted to know if there were any other good schools in CA. I have heard different things about UCLA; it has a bad music program, its very small, they dont have an orchestra, and others have said better things about it.
The reason why I wrote Colburn up there, is because, although I personally don’t think I can make it in there, I am just applying, because it is a “full-ride”.
So please, the answer I want it, what do you think about those schools, and what other schools are there in CA, that offer good music programs.</p>

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<p>UCLA’s music program is not that small and they have a lot of money they have been using to improve the program (Herb Alpert gave them 100 million bucks alone, one of my favorite performer), so it might be worth a look. </p>

<p>One question for you, and it is something to think about as a violinist, does it make sense to even have ‘safeties’? If you can’t get into a program with let’s say the level of a USC, or maybe SF conservatory, why would you want to go to a program where the standards are likely less? Learning violin is not like learning calculus or engineering, and ultimately it is going to come down to how well you are trained, and teaching an instrument is not like teaching calculus, not all teachers are equal, not by a long shot. This discussion comes up here all the time, but with music performance the biggest key to the whole equation is how the program drives the student forward. Quite bluntly, if you have a program where the typical student isn’t that advanced, do they have teachers who can drive students forward, or does the teaching level represent the level of the students? Assuming that a program simply because it exists will do well for a student, especially on an uber competitive instrument like the violin, is not the reality. No, someone doesn’t have to go to Juilliard or Curtis or USC to succeed, but if they are not playing at the level required to get into that kind of school they are at a big disadvantage, because those kids who are are more than likely working with faculty who push them forward as hard or harder than they have in the past. It doesn’t mean some of your schools don’t have good faculty, I am not speaking of any of them specifically, but you need to understand that if your playing level is such you only get into the lower tier schools, that even a great teacher may not be able to drive you forward, and that also it is likely that a program like that may not have a teacher who is at the high level. What I am trying to say is find out about the violin faculty at those schools, see where they studied, see if any of their students have gone on to do things in music (good grad schools, professionals) in making your decision, and if none of the schools you get into seems to have that, then think about other options. Sometimes the difference on an audition is missing by a small amount, so for example a Gap year might be an option.</p>

<p>BTW, I cannot know what level you are on, I don’t know how well you play (I prob couldn’t even if I heard you, since I am not a pedagogue or a violinist),so I am not saying this applies to you or not, but I wanted to bring out the point that studying at a program involves a lot of questions that need to be answered.</p>

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<p>Before you ask questions, you might want to actually check out the copious amounts of information available on a school’s web site. (UCLA doesn’t have an orchestra!!! ) I would also recommend that you listen to the orchestra’s at each one of these schools by visiting on days that they are performing or rehearsing,. There is also a thing called “youtube” . 8-| Use the terms Philharmonia or Symphony in your search—UCLA has both.</p>

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<p>@musicprnt I understand what you mean. However, as a student, especially in the 21st century, don’t you think it is RIGHT to have a safety. I live in the US, so a “gap year” just seems weird. It is better to apply to “safety” schools, than to be denied to every college I am applying to. I don’t know where you got the idea that, “does it make sense to even have ‘safeties’?” . However, I appreciate the other comments you gave. Where I live, not many people are interested in music, and so I don’t know much people to ask for musical college advice. Of course I know a couple of people, my private teachers and a couple of other people, but they give biased opinions and their opinions are a bit outdated. And so, I am asking these questions because I really need help. I know some of my comments may seem absurd and ridiculous, but I am really sincerely asking because I don’t know. I am not asking for criticism and judgments. I realize that it is a little too late to be asking about college related things, but I could use help. I know there are multiple aspects that I have to look at, and I am doing my own research. @musicamusica I have looked at college websites, I’ve been through almost all the tabs on UCLA’s arts department page. I do recall seeing that UCLA has an orchestra, however, I don’t remember hearing about how good it was and etc. </p>

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<p>Gap years are not “weird” in the US. I know many music students who took gap years before heading off to Juilliard, Curtis, Rice, etc.</p>

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<p>@glassharmonica i guess so. but, my parents expect me to go to college next year since I don’t plan on going to “Julliard, Curtis, Rice, etc.” </p>

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<p>I’m going to respectfully disagree with @musicprnt. I happen to believe that musicians who don’t make it to that “top tier” can still have perfectly fruitful and prosperous careers in music. They certainly won’t become world-class soloists and possibly not orchestral musicians, but there’s a lot of room for those “other folks” who love music and are pretty good at it. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with a college list that includes everything from a long-shot to a safety (such that it is in music). </p>

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<p>@jkviolin‌, I only mentioned those schools to give legitimacy to my claim, but my main point is that I agree that you can take a gap year and not be considered a strange outlier, and that a gap year can help you improve your changes to be admitted to a better school or to get a better merit aid package. I do agree with @stradmom‌ that there are many paths to a career in music. Almost no one is a world-class soloist these days because the era of the world-class soloist is over. </p>

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<p>I’m with @stradmom‌ on this one; I think casting a wide net is not such a bad idea; that said, you will want to be well aware of who the teachers are before you make a decision about where to attend. So go ahead and apply to a selection… if you don’t have time to do sample lessons before you apply, then, among the schools you end up accepted to (assuming you end up with more than one option), DO take a lesson before you sign on the dotted line. 4 years is a long time with a bad teacher fit or not enough choices in teachers. In this age of the “entrepreneurial musician,” many, many successful musicians come from excellent but not tippy-top programs (the sheer volume of working musicians vs. slots at the tippy top schools is testament to this). </p>

<p>And @jkviolin‌, I think the parents on this board are not trying to criticize you or your approach. Dismissing comments and asking folks to “get to the point” isn’t really conducive to dialogue. While the participants on these boards have lots of information, they (we) are also biased in our own ways. Everyone’s opinions are colored by their experiences. </p>

<p>You really DO need to drill down into the various schools’ websites, watch their orchestra videos, read the bios of the violin teachers, make some calls and, if you have time, visits. </p>

<p>It is entirely possible that you are already doing this. However, your responses don’t give that impression. </p>

<p>Have you, for example, looked into the repertoire requirements of these schools? If you don’t already have the level of repertoire at the level of polish they require, it’s a bit late in the game; for many, you’ll need to record and upload your prescreen videos in a month or two; for some, that work will need to be memorized, accompanied, or both. So while your parents may have expectations, and you may have desires, the reality will be that you’ll have to apply to schools where you fit their requirements, not simply “who has the best program.” </p>

<p>As Saint-Exupery said, “a goal without a plan is just a wish.”</p>

<p>So maybe, instead of just snapping back at folks for not getting to the crux of your questions, you could provide a bit of background about what you’ve done to prepare for the process. I am sure there are many on these forums who would be happy to provide more relevant feedback, given more information to go on.</p>

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<p>JK, welcome and I think your question is perfectly reasonable; I am sorry I don’t know much about California schools other than UCSD and Long Beach (another poster on here a couple of years ago loves Long Beach after initial disappointment at not getting into USC).</p>

<p>There are many ways to study music and many ways to work in music. For starters, read this essay on different approaches to music study as an undergrad:
<a href=“http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/conservatory/admissions/tips/doubledegree.html”>http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/conservatory/admissions/tips/doubledegree.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I think this thread got a little detoured because some of the responses come from certain viewpoints which made you feel defensive, and I can understand why you would feel that way. I think we parents need to remember this is a young person with a passion for music who does not have the kind of info and support other kids on here might have.</p>

<p>JK, you can apply to conservatories, and those affiliated with universities/colleges, whether public or private, may have better financial aid than others. Conservatories and music schools will, of course, have auditions. The degree is a BM and studies will include performance, theory, aural skills, music history and so on. Music classes will be 2/3-3/4 of your coursework.</p>

<p>You can also apply to colleges or universities for a general music major, a BA, in which 1/4-1/3 of your classes would be music (some schools even have 1/2 of the classes as music for music majors). Some BA programs have auditions for admission but many don’t. You would send in a music supplement to the common application with a recording, a resume, repertoire, and teacher letters (in addition to academic teachers). Once on campus you would audition for orchestra and ensembles, which often are extracurricular. You could continue private lessons on or off campus.</p>

<p>You might be surprised at the financial aid at some private colleges, of which there are several in CA and the Northwest. Do the financial aid calculators on their websites. Mills, Pitzer, Pomona, Whittier, Lewis and Clark, Puget Sound (College of?)…others on here can add to the list. I suggest looking at the Colleges that Change Lives website for information on colleges you might like: there is also a book by that title, by Loren Pope.</p>

<p>For some, the CC music major forum is about getting into top conservatories and studying with top teachers. However, we know many people who have gone to “lesser” conservatories or majored in music at a liberal arts college who have made a life in music quite satisfactorily. It is not always about being a soloist or having a chair in a major orchestra. many schools have courses in being an entrepreneur these days. And a degree in music, whether BM or BA, is a bachelor’s like any other and gives you access not only to performance jobs, but non-performance jobs in music, positions in many other fields, grad schools, med or law school etc. You can try internships during school to test out your interests.</p>

<p>If you love music, you can find a way to study it and then include it in your life in a positive way, whether professionally or not. Don’t let anything discourage you. But research as best you can, talk to anyone in person who can help, and come back here with questions any time. Good luck!</p>

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<p>Well said, compmom. As for those students in the very top tier conservatories studying with top teachers who drive them forward, most of them will not end up as soloists, and many if not most will not land jobs with major orchestras (or even second tier orchestras) either, given the state of things. Not meant to be discouraging, but that is the reality, and these top conservatory students too will need to be creative and branch out and find other ways to make their skills work for them if they want music to be the focus of their careers - freelancing and taking gigs, playing in smaller orchestras, private teaching, entrepreneurial, etc… In other words, they are going to be in the same boat as talented students who graduated from “lesser” schools, with one difference being that they have perhaps a few more connections that were established at their conservatory, which certainly can be helpful in the freelance scene in a major city. And as stradmom says, there are many people who did not go to top tier schools who have wonderful and satisfying careers in music. Living in the metropolitan NY area, I know many of them.</p>

<p>Best of luck on your journey, jk!</p>

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<p>We are going to a debut concert tonight, first in a series created by some Harvard and NEC grads who are combining a speaker on various topics w/performance. Tonight the evolution of multicellularity and evolution of the string quartet will be explored. They are hoping to get residencies in schools as well. I think this is the kind of entrepreneurial effort many are doing these days, and some if it is exciting. (I also know a dance company collaborating with a marine biologist, composer and costumer to explore marine life through movement.)</p>

<p>Sorry for the tangent. Again, good luck JK.</p>

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<p>"However, as a student, especially in the 21st century, don’t you think it is RIGHT to have a safety. I live in the US, so a “gap year” just seems weird. It is better to apply to “safety” schools, than to be denied to every college I am applying to. I don’t know where you got the idea that, “does it make sense to even have ‘safeties’?” </p>

<p>The answer to your question is that you were looking for people to give you ideas, and mine is born out of what students have actually done who go into music. One of the reasons is there are fundamental differences between studying music performance and studying let’s say computer science. If you apply to Stanford and get rejected wanting to study computer science, and go to let’s say UC Santa Cruz, you still can get a good, solid education, because teaching those courses is pretty standard. When it comes to instrumental music the process of working with a teacher is that of an apprentice and master, and just because a program has a violin teacher doesn’t mean a)that they can teach well or b)more importantly, can teach. The reason I question a safety is that simply getting into a music program doesn’t mean that it would actually do anything for you. Teachers whose resume on paper looks good might be horrible (same thing applies to the ‘better schools’), and your safety school may very well, instead of driving you forward in music, put you back. Obviously, it depends on the ‘safety’ , which in music is something of an oxymoron since the audition process is not linear, and you can get rejected from a ‘worse’ program and get into the better one. On the other hand, safety schools are not all the same, and simply choosing a program that has a violin department and assuming it will work if you get in is likely to leave you frustrated. One of the differences from a top/bigger program is if a teacher doesn’t work out, they have other teachers, a lot of the programs you might call safeties might be easy to get into, because their standards are relaxed, but it also means they likely have very few teachers to choose from…and it could be with safeties that the schools you get into might be like the old Groucho Marx joke, that he would never belong to a club that would have him as a member.</p>

<p>As far as this board about being getting into the top conservatories and being soloists, I don’t know where people get that, and I certainly haven’t said that, because that isn’t the point, there is no magic formula to being in music, and of course people follow many different paths, and I certainly wouldn’t say that only going to a top conservatory will do if you want to get into music. However, I too know the world of working musicians, those who do gig work as fill ins with the various orchestras, who are in various regional orchestras, teach, do a lot of other things, and make a career in music, and what I will tell you is even that is changing. A lot of the people you see working those jobs may not have come out of the top conservatories, may not have been from the top programs, but be careful, because they also came into music in a different time. Whether you go to Juilliard or a school that is ‘less’ up there isn’t the point, but your playing is. The reason I question a safety is asking yourself what that safety is, if it is a tier II school with a decent teacher, then that is a possiblity, but what if it is a program where you can get in playing, frankly, in a mediocre fashion? You have gotten into a music school, but is that really going to do anything? The thing I worry about isn’t being a soloist (which quite frankly, most of the kids at juilliard and NEC and CIM and so forth understand is a long shot, and for many is not a goal), or getting into the NY Phil, or establishing a top level chamber group, but rather if you are going to try and make this a vocation, what are the chances you can compete for the kind of jobs most musicians use to cobble together a living? This isn’t 30 years ago, and the competition a student will face coming out, not for orchestra jobs in a full time orchestra, but even for gig work, is likely to be kids who have trained at that high level, who were already playing at a great level entering college…30 years ago the musicians doing gig work were often those who were decent musicians, but the level of competition has so ratcheted up, and those jobs diminished, that it is something you have to be aware of if you want to become a performing musician. BTW, the conservatories have those same courses on being an Entrepeneur, both Juilliard, NEC, I believe CIM, and other of the top schools are telling their students that, encourage making your own career, which tells you what is out there.</p>

<p>There is a difference between going to a safety school because you are playing up there but just weren’t enough to get into a top competitive program, and getting into anywhere college that happens to have a music program that will accept a student, it is why knowing where you are is so important. Obviously, someone can get a music degree and do other things, 90% of the graduates of Juilliard end up like that for example, and yes, the music will always be there for them or anyone else who studies it. But if your goal coming out is to be a working musician, you have to also recognize the reality, and to try and come out of school good enough to get into either a good grad program or be able to compete. The violin especially has changed in the last 20 years, and going to a safety that 20 years ago might have made it possible to get a job as a musician, today might not prepare you for anything but a job like any other college degree. If the student knows that going in, that is fine, but going into a program as a safety, assuming it will train you as well as another school would to the level you need, is really shooting craps IMO. It isn’t about elitism, it is about being good enough, if your goal is to be a working musician, to even contemplate doing it. Yep, kids come out of ‘second tier’ schools and do well, but most of them also were at a high level, and had a good teacher, enough to drive them forward, which a lot of schools might not have done. It would be a lot better to take a gap year and work on getting into a top program, then being like the kids I saw at some of the summer festivals my son went to, who I felt sorry for, they were passionate, they loved what they were doing, who were going to second and third tier schools, but basically given the competition out there were setting themselves up for failure. </p>

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<p>Yes, I really doubt that the parents of any would-be soloists are hanging around on CC. I was about to make many of the points that Musicprnt makes here but he’s already said it. So I’ll underline: violin is super-competitive; you need to be very very good to get work. If you want to have a career you’ll be competing with students who did go to higher level conservatories and had better teachers and more access. </p>

<p>This is not to say that no one will make a living in music who doesn’t got to a top-ten conservatory, but the odds against you are much greater. However, if your idea is to become a community music teacher or to go into music ed, or go into some kind of arts administration, that’s a different (and altogether fine) trajectory. </p>

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<p>And I know all kinds of students in every discipline who live in the US and have taken gap years-- for many reasons. Some just don’t feel ready for college, or want to do a year of service before going to school. Others need time to bolster their scores or their auditions. Gap years are not looked down upon by colleges or conservatories. If it’s this late in the semester and you have not done prescreens, it could be a viable and altogether normal option.</p>

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<p>@listenmissy I think I have given a very bad impression of myself on this discussion site. As for your quote that you put up “A goal without a plan is a wish”, let me just tell you that I am prepared. Every since March of 2014, I have been preparing the prescreening requirements. In my previous comments, I have mentioned what I was playing, and that I am nearly prepared. By the end of October, I am planning on starting to record. I have all my music memorize. I have done research on many of the colleges that I want to go to, and I have looked up and highlighted the teachers that I like. Through recommendations I am planning on meeting UCLA’s professor this Sunday, and am planning to have a consultation with him. I am also planning on meeting the Chapman professor, William Fitzpatrick soon, and am also going to me Phil Levy soon. I am not ill prepared, I just wanted to make that point clear.
Also, I do apologize for making my comments sound aggressive and argumentative. I realize that talking through the internet is not the best way to communicate. I am just a frustrated senior, who really hasn’t had much help on this whole music progress. So, when I am trying to reach out for help, CC people, and I receive negative comments about how “you might not be prepared, you might not be that good, etc” it just, doesn’t help the cause. I’m not asking for optimistic comments all the time, I’m just asking that you guys be constructive and helpful at the same time.
@musicprnt After reading your recent comment, I understand the point that you were trying to make. Yes I understand, that just having a music program, doesn’t mean that I will benefit from it. You actually have a good point about that. I am looking into good music programs with good teachers. I do know that UCLA has 2 good professors that my private teacher knows personally–pogossian and sutre. USC has a great amount of violin teachers–glenn dicterow, “midori goto”, colburn has many–robert lipsett, csulb I havent heard about specific teachers, but I do know that phil levy is there, on faculty and that they have a good orchestra and that the conductor of that orchestra focuses on the violin section a lot (I heard this from a csulb student who is attending currently), chapman univ. has a conservatory, and william fitzpatrick is a teacher there, I haven’t heard much about this schools music program, but one of my friends, is studying with him, and she seems to be improving, of course I will have to go there personally to see if I like him, but its just a school I have in mind. SFCM-- I know someone who graduated last year, and likes his teacher. They have a good music program, lastly Pepperdine. The only reason why I put pepperdine on the list is because Alex Treger teaches there (apparently, according to my private teacher–he seemed to suggest it), and it is just a school that I have in mind.
My point is, I know the teachers, I know their programs, at least what the websites seem to be saying about their programs. The schools websites are probably sugar coating their program and not showing the full side of their programs. What I wanted was what students thought of the school while attending. I know the facts, at least most of them, I know my limits, as to which schools I can apply to and which schools I can’t. I just want personal opinions about the school. The question I am asking is kind of like this: on a UC app, you are asked to fill in your grades, your achievements, your volunteer hours, your family income, your SAT scores, but the PERSONAL ESSAY, is the real opinion, its what really shows you, correct? So what im asking, is not stuff “you would fill out in the app”, I’m asking for things that I can’t attain just within a schools website, opinions and thoughts.
Sorry if I came off as rude, or argumentative.
Although you have not answered exactly what I wanted, I really do appreciate all of your comments, and am very thankful for your time and efforts to help me gain a more realistic perspective. </p>