Columbia admissions

<p>Miramontedad,</p>

<p>Hey, I went to Miramonte once upon a time! I can understand why New York is appealing to your D ;)</p>

<p>One thing to bear in mind about stats, and why there are so many high-stat kids now: the recentering of the SAT scores a few years ago. In 1980 the scores were much harder to come by. A 1450 from back then would translate to a ~1540 in today's scores. So a 1450 today is less impressive than it would have been when we were kids.</p>

<p>If your daughter wants NYC, between Columbia, Barnard, & NYU she should be able to find a place! I would focus on helping her come up with realistic matches & safeties. Then if $ is not a big factor, and she's got a clear favorite, try ED for an edge.</p>

<p>Other urban schools in other great cities might bear examination because they can provide a great experience and may not get quite so many applications per spot.</p>

<p>If Barnard is equally as appealing to your D as Columbia, IMHO you might want to steer her toward Barnard for Early Decision, for the better odds.</p>

<p>Finally, help her get started on thinking about her applications and essays so she can really put her best foot forward when it is time to apply.</p>

<p>Miramonte is a great school and reasonably well known to admission offices; if her class rank is top 10% (or better) this should help too. </p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>If it's really her first choice, have her apply ED. It's worth it.</p>

<p>miramontedad Thanks. I'll suggest to s that he head out west; go west young man.<br>
Regarding your question about interviews; we've been told that it would have made a difference at one of the small schools he was waitlisted at, but who knows?<br>
I second the opinion about looking into Barnard.<br>
Keep posting your process on CC and I think you'll benefit a lot from the advice.
andi</p>

<p>Miramontedad - Welcome. For a real insight into how the Admission process works (value of interview etc.) read The Gatekeepers. Not only extremely informative, but a page-turner.</p>

<p>I agree with others that she should realize that Columbia is a "lottery" school in cc lingo (crapshoot is the more indelicate term). She should go for it, using all you will learn here to help maximize her chances, but she needs to identify schools which give her what she wants but are better than 50/50 chance ("match") as well as at least one "sure bet" which she really likes. If NYC is "it" for her, she can expand her look to Fordham, Hofstra (in the boroughs and much less selective, but quick into Manhattan from either); or consider other cities (American U, GWU etc. in Washington, DC, Tulane in New Orleans etc. etc).</p>

<p>As another poster said, when carolyn and jamimom chime in, you will get great suggestions from them as well as others. If you haven't posted on carolyn's Junior Parents:Let the Games Begin thread, I recommend you go there as that is somewhat the Class of 2006-central for college list suggestions.</p>

<p>Good luck and have fun with the process (it is possible ;)).</p>

<p>I'm new to posting and am starting here then moving on to join "the games" because my daughter has joined the fray as well. We can track each other and compare notes. More importantly, I've picked up good insights by lurking and see there are a lot of thoughtful parents here.</p>

<p>D is also deadset on Columbia and I have many of the same concerns and questions, Miramontedad, as others here. I read The Gatekeepers when it first came out and was pretty frightened by it.</p>

<p>It truly is a lottery, isn't it? D is considering ED to improve her chances, but she also needs substantial financial aid. My understanding from the Columbia website is that ED is no longer binding if an aid package can't be worked out. Does anyone know if that's true? In the meantime, I'm not sure how to help her look at alternatives. Until her college counselor (a well-known figure in the field at her boarding school, where she's a scholarship student) got a hold of her, we were thinking about merit aid packages and Canadian schools. The counselor is thinking Columbia, Harvard, Yale, UPenn. NYU as a "safety." ! D. actually wanted Columbia all along for many reasons so she was delighted for the encouragement. I've asked for a meeting with the counselor.... D's grades and scores are near perfect (2330 cold on her only new SAT for example) but I'm afraid to be complacent. I've promised her if she's admitted, we'll find a way to pay whatever it ultimately costs... my bigger fear is that she won't get in. </p>

<p>Her school does have a great placement track record, though that's not why she went there. One reason we made the decision was to give her the best available education, at a price I could afford, so that if college wasn't financially possible she could make her way in the world for a while without it... and she was too emotionally young for early college at 14-15. Many of her classmates, however, are there to get into top schools and they have ambitious and wealthy parents. She'll be pitted against them in the crapshoot. </p>

<p>Thanks for any advice readers can share.</p>

<p>"My understanding from the Columbia website is that ED is no longer binding if an aid package can't be worked out. Does anyone know if that's true?"</p>

<p>Be careful: you are only free to pursue "lower-priced" schools (i.e. state u.'s.) They will NOT release you to pursue their competition.</p>

<p>From their website:</p>

<p>"Can I be released from my Early Decision contract because of my financial aid package?</p>

<p>It is extremely rare for a family to ask to be released from the Early Decision commitment for financial reasons. There are usually only two or three families each year that ultimately are released for financial aid reasons, and this is normally due to a lack of understanding of need-based aid (i.e., they were expecting merit-based aid, they did not submit complete information when using a financial aid estimator, etc). </p>

<p>IT IS THE FAMILY’S DETERMINATION THAT THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO FINANCE A COLUMBIA EDUCATION THAT ALLOWS THEM TO BE RELEASED FROM THE BINDING EARLY DECISION ADMISSIONS OFFER. The family must first speak with a financial aid officer, before the release is finalized. Ultimately, it is the family’s decision whether or not they feel capable of accepting the need-based Columbia financial aid award.</p>

<p>Those who do opt out of their Early Decision contract are released to pursue lower-cost school options, such as state schools and/or schools that award merit aid. The admission offer to Columbia is then cancelled. A candidate who withdraws from Columbia’s Early Decision offer will not be allowed to reconsider Columbia’s financial aid estimate in the spring Regular Decision cycle, and will not be able to reinstate the original offer of admission."</p>

<p>Thanks for the quick reply. I did read that formidable warning on their site and was assuming that any package she'd get from Columbia, if admitted, would be comparable to anything she'd get from a competitor. So we would only be looking for a truly lower priced option, like a state school or a merit offer. Still, "only two or three families each year" aren't very many and perhaps I should not consider withdrawing from ED an option..... certainly I wouldn't be honest if I claimed I misunderstood the process.</p>

<p>It could be comparable, or then again it could not be. We were in a similar category of requiring aid. Aid offers from 100% need-blind schools varied by $47k over four years (more than a full year's costs), with loan expectations ranging from $0 to $17.9k, and work-study ranging from washing dishes to a paid research assistantship.</p>

<p>If you are comfortable not being able to compare offers, go for it. You've got to do what you think right; it's just best to go in with eyes open.</p>

<p>Amatricia, just to back up Mini's observations: FinAid offers from similar schools can vary considerably, not just in amount but in the ratio of loans to grants.</p>

<p>I would recommend that your D apply to any school that's a good "fit" for her and then to sort choices out when you have acceptances and FinAid offers in hand. In our case, D's first choice school revised the FinAid offer to beat those from her #2 and #3 schools when acceptances were in.</p>

<p>Only a few hours old here and already I've learned a lot. Thank you all! D and I will have to pay a long serious visit to Columbia (not too far away, fortunately, we live on eastern LI)... are there usually financial aid staff available to talk about such issues during the summer?</p>

<p>I also thought of one more potential confounding factor: what does it really mean financially to be a national merit semifinalist? Her score was slightly above last year's cutoff for NY. I don't know if this year's has been announced. I assume if she knew she'd tell me... but if it turned out we could tap funds via that resource perhaps it would lower the ED risks...?</p>

<p>Don't count on anything from National Merit unless (a) the school your D will attend offers NMS aid, or (b) you are employed by a company that offers NMS-related corporate scholarships. Columbia is not a school that offers (a). We live in CA, and although my S's NMS scores were well above the state cut-off for semifinalist, and he was named a finalist, he qualified under neither (a) nor (b) and was not awarded any merit money.</p>

<p>There is a 3rd form of NMS scholarship money, given directly from NMS to the highest-scoring students in each state who don't otherwise qualify for NMS-related scholarships under (a) or (b) above (2500 students nationwide), but in a high-achievement state like CA or NY, a student with scores "slightly above" the cut-off (or even, as in my S's case, well above the cut-off) should not count on that either.</p>

<p>It is different at different schools. Some schools will take an NMS award out of your grant portion, some out of your expected loan portion, some out of expected work-study or summer contributions, and some a combination. (this is true of all outside scholarship aid, not just NMS). There might even be some that let you keep it (though I don't know of any.)</p>

<p>Consider the ED question carefully: I haven't seen any data or study suggesting that (at most schools) a candidate requiring financial aid (and doesn't have some kind of important hook - i.e. football quarterback) is more likely to be admitted in ED than RD. It's possible of course, but I haven't seen any data supporting it. (The reason it might not be an advantage is simple: the same candidate is likely to be around in April.)</p>

<p>100% correct, mootmom. My D met with the same result as your S., & for the same reasons as your (a) and (b), despite also being named a finalist. I.m.o., these points are <em>not</em> clear on the NM website. They say simply, as I remember, that finalists are eligible for the straight $2500 NM award (despite a non-participating chosen college & thus no matching funds from such a college), without further qualifying that $2500 as to eligibility & likelihood.</p>

<p>And as to the highest scorers, I thought I also remembered that to be for one female, one male. (There would be only one each of 1600 pt scorers in a state as large as CA, for example? I wonder.)</p>

<p>Receipt of the $2,500 directly from NMS Corp. (2500 students nationwide) is not based on PSAT/SAT scores alone...its based on the full gamut of factors that go into the application they have you fill out: grades, ec's, an essay, rec's, scores, etc.</p>

<p>Columbia does not give any National Merit money. No Ivies do -- but University of Chicago does and might be worth looking at as an EA possibility since its EA round is not single choice but would show interest. U of C reminds me of Columbia in lots of ways -- urban, core curriculum -- and gets a lot of overlap in applicants, while being somewhat less selective. </p>

<p>The money that comes to National Merit Scholars directly from the NMS corporation is only a one time payment of $2,500 and is, as Donemom says, based on grades and an essay and recs as well as scores.</p>

<p>There are scholars at Columbia in a range of categories (total of about 100 out of each entering class, I think), and they get grants instead of loans in their aid packages. But as far as I can tell the admissions committee simply picks the top candidates out of the pool, you can't apply for the honor.</p>

<p>Columbia has some special scholarships, such as the John Jay Scholar designation, which don't necessarily come with money, but some students on these boards seem to have received nice finaid packages when getting the John Jay. When my d was considering applying ED, we were told that the John Jay were only awarded during the RD round; the ED students would be considered later on, evidently. I would ask about this.</p>

<p>Miramontedad--be supportive, but help guard your daughter's ego and feelings in what can easily be a heartbreaking experience. She's obviously a good student and deserves to be proud what she's accomplished, not feel bad because she can't get in to a handful of oversubscribed schools that reserve too much space for the offspring of the rich, the powerful, and the notorious. </p>

<p>We live in LA and my D graduated this year from a very competitive private school. Only one girl from her class (119 seniors) got into Columbia this year--or last year. She was a major legacy (like, Columbia buildings named after her family) She also held NATIONAL positions in some very impressive charities, had a cousin on the adcom, and had grades/scores in your daughter's range. She applied ED and got in. Kids with better stats but no family connection and no national-level honors were turned down. </p>

<p>So unless there's something about your daughter you're not telling us, or unless she blows the socks of the SATi /II in the next few months, or wins a national award of some sort..... I wouldn't count on Columbia.</p>

<p>My D had a 1480, 3.8 UW, 10 APs with 4/5 on all, star athlete, violinist in local orchestra, and the sympathy vote because her dad was in the hospital with leukemia. With good essays and solid recs, she figured she had a good shot. She was turned down at four Ivies (and she didn't even apply to Harvard or Yale.) We know of NO ONE from her school who got into an Ivy with less than a 1520--unless they were a legacy or athlete. </p>

<p>However--NYU courted my D avidly. So did Northwestern and WUSTL and Tufts (all of which your D might like). And Carleton College (show your D all those cute blond Nordic boys in Minneapolis!) Both UCLA Honors College and Berkeley made amazing pitches, reiterating how SMART they thought my D was. So in the end, she had good choices. </p>

<p>Make sure your daughter has good choices when the smoke clears. And don't let her get four rejections. That was very painful.</p>

<p>sac and donemom,
I do know that about the elements of the award (more than scores). I think mootmom knows that, too. All the elements in my D's profile were fabulous; I just think that in any very populous state, the odds are against that Corporate $2500 award -- & certainly for the "single highest scorer" of each gender -- even with essays, etc. figured in.</p>

<p>I am very glad that my D did <em>not</em> choose Chicago as her first-choice college. Someone quite awhile back on CC mentioned that Chicago implied that much merit aid would be forthcoming, & in the end it never happened. Chicago also virtually promised the moon to my D, so I'm glad we didn't believe them. These incentives they linked to the NM money; they kept sending her mailings asking to be named her NM first choice school. Perhaps others have had better luck, but we researched carefully the history of aid when my D drew up her list; consistency & follow-through on incentives were crucial to our family.</p>

<p>Amatricia, NM Finalist status is tremendously valuable for getting merit aid at lower status colleges and universities. Basically it means a full ride at some of the less competitive state universities (including waivers of out of state tuiton), and up to half-tution scholarships at some private universities that your daughter would probably consider safeties. I'm not talking about the standard NMS awards that some of the other posters have described -- you can get those too, but the college sponsored and NMS awards are a mere drop in the bucket as far as current tuitions are concerned. I'm talking about what some schools will offer out of their own funds in order to attract high-performing students. </p>

<p>This isn't a factor to ignore. There are some students that have really lucked out, because sometimes the lower-status university also happens to have exactly what the student wants. For example, if some kid from Northern state simply has his heart set on "warm and sunny" -- then a full ride at Arizona State U's honors college might be just the thing. </p>

<p>But the schools like Columbia are already filled with NM Finalists. So it won't help there.</p>

<p>But if finances are a major concern, it is useful to know that you have this backup. You do not have to designate the first choice college with NM until May, after the decision has been made - so your daughter could apply to her dream schools in the hopes that sufficient financial aid comes through, knowing that if that doesn't work out, there is something to fall back on.</p>

<p>As corny as this sound I would suggest watching the scholar and taking note of the judges feedback since one of the judges is a Senior Associate Director of Admissions at Columbia</p>