<p>My son is having a very hard time making a final decision between these two schools. He was deferred EA from Yale and then got a likely letter to Columbia and was ultimately admitted there as a John Jay Scholar and also admitted in the regular round to Yale. He had a really fantastic time at Columbia's admit days, in part, because he ran into an old friend, made some friends quickly and also because they took the kids on a lot of fun NY things. He also had a great time at Bulldog Days, but took a little longer to find a group of friends. </p>
<p>He feels that the two schools offer a very different experience and he's trying to decide which one is a better fit and is pretty stuck. He likes the interface with NYC that Columbia offers as he imagines going to museums, cultural events, etc. I'm not sure how much of that kids really have time for once the grind of school starts, but they do make a big deal about it to prospective students. He feels Yale offers a stronger campus community, residential colleges, better advising, etc. It's also close enough to NYC to go in on a weekend if there is a museum exhibit he really wants to see.</p>
<p>DS is a humanities kid. He'd probably major in English with a writing concentration and/or in humanities (Yale has a humanities major) or something in the humanities. The Core attracted him to Columbia but Yale pre-admitted him to Directed Studies so its an even playing field there (he loved the DS class he visited at Yale.) DS is a writer/editor and Yale has many campus publications that are outstanding. Columbia may offer the opportunity for an internship at a publication in the city. He is not making the decision based on the John Jay Scholar program as he feels Yale has some things that balance that.</p>
<p>I can see that he's really torn and I'm not sure how to help him make a decision at this point. I do know that the CC parents often have a lot of good information and wisdom so I thought I'd post this because maybe there are some things we haven't considered. Thanks.</p>
<p>I think he should choose Columbia. I know students who are using their Fridays (most departments don’t have Friday classes) for internship in the city. Yes New Haven is close enough, but Columbia is only minutes away from the museums, cultural places, etc.</p>
<p>The best part of the experience? Being in one of the greatest city on earth! I wouldn’t be caught anywhere near New Haven. </p>
<p>NOTE: My only dealing with Yale was with one of the professors in the Business School. It was a very good experience and since then I have had a very good impression of Yale. The people involve with the school seem to be very classy.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I think Columbia, and especially its English Department, is unpleasantly politicized in every direction. In part because its surrounding community is RIGHT THERE and incredibly rich and powerful (and because Columbia itself is not as rich and powerful in its own right as HYP), campus issues attract intervention from outside forces pretty much all the time, so the college is sometimes a little like a battlefield. And the administration is loathe to tick off its billionaire supporters who live a short limousine ride away.</p></li>
<li><p>Some students I have known at Columbia who were not from wealthy families reported periods of real loneliness. I understand that students DO, absolutely, take advantage of having New York at their doorstep, but that can get expensive fast, and there isn’t always an option to do only free things, or to have an alternate low-cost social life on campus. Maybe there is in theory, but not really if you don’t have enough friends doing the same thing.</p></li>
<li><p>DS is a whole lot like the Columbia Core. Of course, it isn’t an experience that binds all Yale undergraduates together, since only 10-15% of them do it. On the other hand, DS classes aren’t full of people who resent having to take them, which is a problem with the Columbia Core.</p></li>
<li><p>On the other hand . . . New York is the center of the world, and unbelievably exciting, even if you don’t have unlimited resources. And New Haven isn’t.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>JHS, I am aware of the politicization in the department (there was a huge tenure fight some years back which forced the university to revamp the entire tenure system), but I am not sure it is worse than any other English Department. </p>
<p>There are a lot of free programs on campus and off campus for Columbia students. In most arts and cultural places in the city you only have to show your Columbia ID. The university also heavily subsidized arts, cultural and sports events in the city: you can buy tickets from the student center. </p>
<p>Having a lot of money help. NY is an expensive place to live. But can you also have a good time without money? Absolutely</p>
<p>New Haven is just too small for me. It gets boring after a short while, so there is no place to escape to if you need a break. Something you don’t have to worry about in New York.</p>
<p>Just want to chime in here to point out that the city can be VERY distracting, even with no money. It has the potential to take away from studying, creating an on-campus social or extracurricular network, and, yes, the contents of ones wallet. I say this from personal experience (albeit 30 years ago). No regrets! But if your S wants a close community, I don’t believe Columbia provides the best opportunity for this.</p>
<p>What wonderful choices, he can’t go wrong. Let him decide. The clouds will have to part in 5 days…</p>
<p>Did you cross-post the question in the Yale and Columbia CC forums? You’ll get lots of opinions there
Also, I suspect this dilemma comes up a lot and there may already be some good discussions around this choice. So search a little in those forums…</p>
<p>He will spend 4 years at undergrad. More about exploring himself and who he wants to be as a scholar and where he wants to go academically. The friends, the adventures, the extra-curriculars are all the added benefits. </p>
<p>Where will he regret not attending?</p>
<p>Son who ended up at p’ton did not apply to Columbia but very much liked Yale. He now as several of his undergrad friends at Columbia Law and their combined JD/MBA program. He has spent time with them in their dorms and apartments. Spent time up there when interviewing for med school, again not opting for Columbia med but Cornell’s med school/teaching hospital NYP(not in Ithaca but in manhattan).</p>
<p>He has friends who love it there, and take full advatage of what the city offers BUT they are grad students. His other buddy at Harvard law has an internship this summer in NYC. He also opted for harvard over columbia, location. It seems like they all like to meet up and visit in NYC with some of their columbia friends but they enjoyed going to school at p’ton or Yale for undergrad.</p>
<p>Just a window into what some others have done.</p>
<p>So I guess what I am saying is the undergrad experience at Yale cannot be duplicated, while going to grad or undergrad at Columbia you can have the same experience.</p>
<p>Good luck and enjoy these last few months, they fly by so very, very quickly.</p>
<p>Can he look beyond his freshman year in making his decision?</p>
<p>What would subsequent college years look like? For example, if at Columbia, would he continue to live in a dorm, or would he contemplate moving off campus into an apartment with friends. Could he afford that option? Also…food options, social options etc. </p>
<p>I have a friend’s whose son is at Columbia and absolutely loves it…but he is constantly whining for more money because he wants to do things with others that have fatter wallets. His workstudy helps but NY is incredibly expensive…even half-price theater tickets aren’t cheap…and a group will often want to go for a bite before and/or after. He does take advantage of as many free/cheap things as he can on campus and in the city, but part of going to school in NY is taking advantage of what makes NY different and special, and that, unfortunately, can be expensive.</p>
<p>Being in New York puts him closer to writers, publishers, internships etc if he likes the City. Although it is understandable that he wants to equate John Jay as a trade off for what he can get from Yale, you really have to look at the type of internships current John Jay scholars are doing to see if those are a trade off or not and whether going to Yale gives him similar opportunities.</p>
<p>I look at Columbia as putting a student closer to opportunity. Whether they are able to pursue or get the opportunities is a different story.</p>
<p>One pattern I did notice among Columbia grads - lot of them seem to keep going back to get other degrees from Columbia. Met someone locally who said he stayed at Columbia on and off for 17 years, got his bachelors, got a PhD in philosophy along with law, and taught there for a while during the same period. I have seen letters from other students who have gone onto get masters and PhDs, medical degrees etc. So for all the bad things one hears about Columbia, the students seem not to be able to leave!</p>
Me too, speaking as a Harvard grad who couldn’t wait to live in NY. I looked at Barnard back in the day (Columbia wasn’t co-ed yet) and the English department seemed fractious then. I loved going to Columbia for grad school, but I think I was better served by a more academic centered rather than internship centered education for undergrad. I think also there is a lot to be said for a campus where nearly everyone lives on campus and eats and socializes there. Those kinds of exciting intellectual conversations - especially the serendipitous ones just don’t happen other places. I still remember the amazing lunch I had in the dining hall with Peter Sellars (director (opera mostly), MacArthur fellowship winner.)</p>
<p>Thanks for this feedback. He’s sorting through his thoughts and I think he’s getting closer to a decision. Oddly enough he started declining other schools today and got stuck when U Chicago came up. Unfortunately, we were not able to see this school. He applied sight unseen and then it just didn’t work for us to go there this month along with other schools. That might have been a good fit, but he needs to pick a school he’s visited and has a better feel for. It’s hard to let it go though.</p>
<p>Yes, New York is a better city than New Haven but it’s not the only factor and he’s trying to evaluate the academic experience he’ll have at both places. The input on the English department at Columbia is very helpful.</p>
<p>My daughter (at Barnard) was on financial aid and received no allowance – I paid the bill that came from the bursar but she was always on her own for all of the other stuff. </p>
<p>She never had an issue and wouldn’t have dreamed of calling me and “whining” for more money. She was incredibly grateful & gracious whenever I gave her any sort of monetary gift --even if it was only enough to cover a nice restaurant meal for her birthday. </p>
<p>She found it very easy to earn extra money in NY. She did bartending for extra money, but had friends making good money from tutoring. NY is full of opportunities for part-time & flexible employment. </p>
<p>To the OP: I don’t know your financial status or your son’s work ethic, but if he is willing to work to earn his spending money, then he will find no shortage of opportunities in NY.</p>
<p>An older cousin was able to do the same while at Barnard, but said a student’s ability to take a full load and work part-time/flexible job depended on their ability to maintain a balance between the two…a YMMV situation depending on the individual student. </p>
<p>While she was able to deal, she’s the first to acknowledge that not everyone can maintain the balance as she and some Barnard/Columbia classmates could.</p>
<p>Well, it probably did cut into time that could otherwise have been spent drinking & partying. ;)</p>
<p>It probably does depend on major and course load, but my daughter did very well academically and never complained about work/financial issues. I think that kids who work are often more disciplined in their study habits precisely because they are working.</p>
<p>But I don’t want to start a debate about the merits of a campus job – again, I don’t know the OP’s financial situation or what her son wants in terms of college lifestyle. It’s a factor that her son can consider. If he goes to Yale and stays on campus most of the time, he might be better able to keep expenses down. On the other hand, if he wants to make regular trips into NYC from Yale, he may find that it ends up being just as expensive when the travel costs are factored in. There are a lot of very inexpensive things to do in NY – it depends a lot on individual tastes.</p>
<p>As for the larger OP question…I’d weigh 2 things:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Very urban campus in NYC and more spread out student body vs less urban feeling campus in New Haven with most students living closer together in residential communities. </p></li>
<li><p>Departmental culture of each school’s English departments.</p></li>
</ol>
I can’t imagine very many Yale students feeling this way. They may not love New Haven, but they aren’t bored.</p>
<p>My niece is at Columbia, and loves it. She has had several excellent internships. My son is at Yale, and loves it, and my daughter (who is also interested in writing) is going to Yale in the fall. This isn’t an easy choice. It basically comes down to being in New York vs. a significantly better housing arrangement. My daughter was not impressed by the dorms at Columbia compared to the residential colleges at Yale.</p>
<p>After years of lurking, I’ve come out of the shadows to send you a PM. I have two daughters in English Phd programs – one at Yale; one at Columbia.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, both are excellent and my comments won’t make the choice eaiser!</p>
