Columbia vs. Princeton

Colleges and Universities A-Z Columbia University
1

<p>Hi What are the main differences between undergrad Princeton and Columbia? Since these two have very similiar admission statistics, I am not sure for which I should apply for early admissions. I know Columbia is located in New York City and has a core curriculum, but any other differences that are striking between the two? </p>

<p>I know there are previous graduates from my school who have gone to Columbia but haven't heard anyone to Princeton. So should I try out for columbia then?</p>

<p>Thanks so much for reading this.</p>

2

<p>From what I've heard, Princeton is more well-known for math, while Columbia is more well-known for economics/humanities stuff. I think.</p>

3

<p>Some might say that a primary difference is that Columbia is a research university that focuses a good deal of attention on its graduate schools, while Princeton caters almost exclusively to undergrads. The consequence is that, at the level of the major, at least, it's probably true that Princeton devotes more resources to undergrads. It lacks, however, the sort of broad, cohesive core curriculum that Columbia College offers as the centerpiece of its undergraduate academic experience. Take this for what you will; I find both schools offer excellent undergraduate educations, but that Princeton is superior for anyone who wants to pursue to its utmost a specific specialty program, whereas a "best fit" Columbia student would aspire to a more well-rounded renaissance man education. </p>

<p>Another major difference is environment. Obviously, Manhattan, even Columbia's relatively quiet enclave of Morningside Heights, is radically distinct from arboreal, exurban Princeton. Princeton has a larger, more spread out campus, which can entail longer walks to class but also more congenial living arrangements if one prefers more rolling lawns and grassy courtyards. What Princeton cannot offer (or can, but for a longer, more expensive trip) is the city as an educational resource. The Core classes at Columbia do not exist entirely in an ivory tower vacuum, but use the city as an educational resource; you will attend concerts for your Music Hum classes, visit musea for Art and Lit Hum, walk through cathedrals to learn about gothic architecture, and dine in ethnic neighborhoods where you will have the opportunity to practice the language(s) you are learning. </p>

<p>Social life is the other element of distinction. A lot of one's life at Princeton seems to revolve around the eating clubs, to which one applies and joins, and finds oneself around on weekend nights for parties and such. Columbia has no such institutions and social life is much more variegated; individuals may choose to stay on campus for parties, theatrical productions, films, or whatnot, or go out into the neighborhood and broader city. Consequently, there's less of a "typical Columbia experience" in that fewer students are doing the exact same thing at any one time, but far more options in terms of what one chooses to do with one's time.</p>

4

<p>Qualitatively, I second 2007's notes.</p>

<p>If you attend Columbia and have friends who go to Princeton, they will end up crashing at your place on the weekends, since everyone there is desperate to enjoy new york.</p>

<p>If you want to do investment banking or consulting, Columbia's career office is highly prepared to help you find a job there. Beyond that, it's hit-or-miss. Princeton has a very well-funded program to help place its students in nonprofit organizations at a reasonable salary, so if you're more the political / NGO / nonprofit type, they can do more for you.</p>

5

<p>Princeton (and all the Ivies) are equally strong at placement into banking and consulting.</p>

6

<p>
[quote]
Princeton has a very well-funded program to help place its students in nonprofit organizations at a reasonable salary, so if you're more the political / NGO / nonprofit type, they can do more for you.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree that they may be able to do more for you directly in that endeavor...as they would be able to more ably fund thesis research and the like. Still, being in New York one has the opportunity to weave internships at said NGOs and other organizations into one's class schedule if one so chooses. This would be very difficult to achieve commuting from Princeton.</p>

7

<p>I was speaking for post-graduation jobs. Having gone through the whole process with CCE's assistance for job hunting, I can say with a high degree of confidence that the only industries they do very well in are Banking, Consulting, and (to a lesser degree) IT / Software. You'd think they'd have plenty of ins for the publishing or media world, but they don't. You gotta fight for it on your own if that's your pref. I'm not sure about Princeton in that regard, but I do know they do very well by their students when it comes to nonprofits.</p>

8

<p>I agree completely with regard to CCE and the worst part is they have no shame; they seem to care less they only cater to banking/finance types). I get more interesting job tips from other sources within the university, though. The various departments and preprofessional advising offices have been helpful in this regard. And, of course, local internships are often as good a prelude to postgraduation careers as an on-campus interview.</p>

9

<p>These schools have such a different feel to them, I really think you need to visit both if you can. </p>

<p>After visiting Princeton, my son did not apply. I will relay what he told me: It was too far from the city, didn't feel as if it had enough going on, had a social life centered on the eating clubs, and seemed preppier to him than other places. None of that has to do with its educational opportunities, which are wonderful. There are many who judge Princeton the best place in the country to get an undergraduate education because undergraduate eduction is its focus.</p>

<p>I would say that until recently, Princeton was weaker in some of the arts than other colleges of its caliber. But they have set out to remedy that. They are also expanding, and I understand they are trying to loosen the grip of the eating club scene some by adding a residential college. I don't know where all this will be by next year. </p>

<p>What appealed to him about Columbia: the core curriculum, NYC, the music scene in New York city, something about the intellectual intensity that struck him when he visited Columbia students. </p>

<p>So, it's really about you as an individual.</p>

10

<p>Danzera,</p>

<p>Unfortunately that is the way career services operate at most Ivies, its not just Columbia. I networked myself into a unique job situation, but only after significant effort on my part.</p>

11

<p>I second slipper. Career services isbest for the biz types. For less conventional folk, you're best using the career services for resume proofreading, interview tips etc, but for the actual connections, you'll be more dependent on your wits (hey, you are in an ivy league school, right? you can handle it ;-))</p>

<p>I think it has recently dawned on schools that their CS systems are totally lopsided and they are finally moving to rectify this...my school just started up an elaboate CS system for people looking to go in DC.</p>

12

<p>I'm a Princeton student whose spent two summers at Columbia (Princeton does not offer summer classes), and went to a competitive high school in Manhattan and so had 30 classmates in my graduating class matriculate at Columbia. Based on that I wil say:</p>

<p>Columbia is one of the WORST experiences in terms of administrative red tape and nickel/diming you to death. I don't know what the deal is with the administrators but they seem inept, shameless, and lazy. For example, my summer classmates apartment had a fire in it (she is a full time Columbia student), and it took the administration two months to resettle them. They were people basically living in the library because of the administrations ineptness. </p>

<p>The day I was to come in for registration, they decided to close the registration office early, but neglected to tell me this when I called them two hours prior to taking an hour train and half ride to campus. </p>

<p>They also seem to get extreme pleasure out of nickeling and diming you to death at Columbia, for example, charging you 10 cents a page for printing on the laserjets.</p>

<p>Columbia currently has a better arts program and chemistry program.</p>

<p>Princeton has a better social sciences (esp. economics) program, much much better engineering school, better life sciences program, better english and comparative literature program, and better hard science program (other than chem).</p>

<p>Princeton has realized this and is building a new chemistry building/program and arts center/program to remedy the situation.</p>

<p>Some other aspects:
Columbia is very liberal, less so than Brown, but still very liberal.
Princeton has the full spectrum of politics, I would say conservatives represent 35% of campus, liberals 35%, and 30% are libertarian types.</p>

<p>Columbia's sports teams are a joke whereas Princeton's sports teams are not.</p>

<p>Columbia is in NYC, and a 10 minute train ride to midtown, 15 minute train ride to downtown. whereas Princeton is an hour and 15 minutes from NYC and Philly.</p>

<p>Columbia is surrounded by a ghetto to the north and the east (don't go running in Morningside park or north of 125th street unless you wish to be mugged or approached by crack dealers).
Princeton is surrounded by investment bankers and pharma professionals (watch out, you might be approached by someone trying to sell you some stock).</p>

<p>When I stayed over for prefrosh weekend I also thought that Princeton students were very preppy and stuck up. I actually matriculated elsewhere but changed my decision. Best decision I ever made. Princeton students are actually quite friendly and most are not at all conceited or stuck up. There are many very wealthy students (I would say that out of the 25 hallmates in my entryway, 10 of them had parents with net worths over $15 million), but they are all friendly and sociable, even to a middle class kid like me.</p>

<p>I think the preppiness stuck up factor that your son might have perceived stems from the fact that princetonians have a strange affinity for polos or blazers pretty much wear them all the time.</p>

<p>Columbia's dorms have roaches. Princeton's do not.</p>

<p>Undergraduates run Princeton's campus, not sure about the situation at Columbia but I see their GSB students all over the place.</p>

13

<p>I find it very interesting that students who do not go to Columbia or did not stay through their undergraduate years find it necessary to come to this section of the board and rip into the school. Real information is useful but exaggeration and BS is not.</p>

14

<p>
[quote]
There are many very wealthy students (I would say that out of the 25 hallmates in my entryway, 10 of them had parents with net worths over $15 million), but they are all friendly and sociable, even to a middle class kid like me.

[/quote]

How do students know each other's net worth?  I obviously don't know most of my son's friends at Columbia, but I have met his two best friends there and his girlfriend, and been struck by the fact that all three have parents who are professors.  Maybe this is meaningful, probably random.  But I think your post reflects some of the differences between the atmospheres of the two schools.&lt;/p&gt;

<p>As for the Columbia administration, everyone complains about it and so I accept your take, though my son hasn't had any unfortunate dealings with them. Princeton is primarily an undergrad institution, and that has its real advantages as I mentioned earlier, but I don't think that means that GSB students run the Columbia campus. There are advantages also to being at a research institution like Columbia, including lots of projects to work on. And to being in the city, including many opportunities for internships during the year as well as in the summer. As for economics, Princeton is excellent of course, but Columbia is regaining some of its earlier top status as well with more than a dozen fine hires in the last two years. This will take a few years to show up in the rankings, since these repuations tend to lag.</p>

15

<p>Over the course of the year you get to know your hallmates pretty well. My dorm had every two entryways connected and enclosed from the rest of the building which means there were about 50 students over two entryways in essentially one building. </p>

<p>Eventually you learn what your hallmates' parents do. I had two entrywaymates who had a father as a partner at a law firm (one in NY and one in DC), two who had a CEO or CFO parent of a publicly traded company or subsidiary with market caps over $1 billion, one whose mother was a radiologist and was the former president of the american college of radiology, a student whose father was one of the largest real estate developers in TN, Al Franken's son (I think it should be safe for me to assume his dad made at least $15 million from all those books and shows?), a student whose dad was an exec of Osh Kosh Bigosh, and two banking MDs. I'm pretty sure they all would be classified as having net worths over $15 million, wouldn't you?</p>

<p>There were two others who were the children of doctors, but these days it's hard to figure out how much that means.</p>

<p>Then there were the other 15 or so including myself who had parents doing various things, teaching in middle school/hs, college professors, insurance adjusters, and other typically middle class occupations.</p>

<p>Unless the roaches occupy the Columbia dorms only part time (during the summer) I would think they are there during the school year as well.</p>

<p>Also, unless they have some sort of temporary administration over the summer, I would think they are there during the school year as well.</p>

<p>I am not ripping on Columbia. I pointed out it has a better chemistry and arts program than Princeton, and better proximity to NYC. </p>

<p>Yes, Columbia's sports teams are largely a joke. No need to attend Columbia to know that, just keep up with Ivy football/basketball/crew/tennis/squash/golf. They do have a decent fencing team.</p>

<p>I am just recounting my experience in interacting with Columbia as an institution. It's an opinion.</p>

16

<p>Half of Eugenie's criticism is apt, and half of it is pure homerism for Princeton on her part. In her order:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Columbia does indeed have a reputation for a stodgy bureaucracy. That is quite true in some areas and very untrue in others. Even in the places where they can be pains in the ass, it's like with any other bureaucracy - if you learn the rules and play by them, you can get what you want out of it. I have, in turn, milked the registrar/student services, housing & dining, and student government infrastructures to get what I wanted, and in many cases have been pleasantly surprised to find intelligent people behind it all.</p></li>
<li><p>If they didn't charge you 10 cents on copies, students would make 2000 copies of flyers for their event or group's auditions or what-have-you, and would bankrupt the printer budgets for the rest of the students. They have a weekly quota for each student for printing in the labs, which gets the job done admirably.</p></li>
<li><p>I would argue Columbia's programs in economics (Stiglitz / Sachs and all sorts of luminaries dropping by), creative writing, and life sciences are all first-rate, especially with the resources of the med school. Many budding engineers and med students take internships at the med school during the summer and during the year.</p></li>
<li><p>Columbia's campus has a range of politics, and your quote is its reputation, not its reality. I would say ~10% are raving, half-anarchistic liberals, 2% are activist conservatives, and the vast majority are apathetic but leaning left in their beliefs. By and large, students find the continuous protests by the socialists or wackos involved in the middle eastern conflict to be annoying obstacles to their daily routines. 1968 is a long time ago.</p></li>
<li><p>All Ivy League major sports are a joke. Columbia's may be more of a joke than Princeton's, but that doesn't mean you've got anything to brag about unless it's squash. Columbia's fencing (as noted), tennis, sailing, and crew teams are top rate, and until this past year their ultimate frisbee team kicked some butt too. But let's not kid ourselves... try winning an NCAA tournament game before you get all uppity.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>Furthermore, one of the things I like best about columbia is how there is zero jock culture. I very much like the fact that sports are a joke here, because it means the university doesn't overvalue sports as a revenue source and compromise its academics. Nobody is a second-class citizen.</p>

<p>- Columbia is in a very safe neighborhood with that safety extending for some ways away. Again, you are speaking from either an overly-sheltered-upbringing paranoia, or 1970s stereotypes that no longer apply. A private security force called Morningside Alliance patrols the streets in addition to the NYPD, and areas within walking distance of columbia are gentrifying quickly. It's the second-safest neighborhood in the city after the upper east side. Your stereotypes about crack dealers, muggers and harlem seems to belie, perhaps, some latent racism about our neighborhood.</p>

<p>The only area near columbia that's dangerous at all is morningside park after dark. everywhere else, i'd go running in late at night (and have).</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Roaches are less of a problem at columbia than in most of NYC. Most of the time, the appearance of roaches is precipitated by students bringing about absolutely gross conditions in their kitchens, leaving food around or being really messy, or the same thing in the bathrooms. In my 4 years at columbia I saw exactly one live roach. The newer buildings are better than the older ones, too.</p></li>
<li><p>One of the best advantages about columbia as compared with yale, harvard, penn, cornell, etc is that while it is a major research university with numerous graduate schools (18 of them), the university is very focused on its undergraduates. The core curriculum - and how proud they are of it - is evidence of this. The centralized undergraduate campus and resources clearly place the two major undergraduate schools at the top of the university's priorities. It may not be as exclusively undergraduate as Dartmouth or Princeton but it strikes an excellent balance.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>-Steve</p>

17

<p>Hah, don't preach to me about my having a sheltered upbringing, I lived in the Brooklyn ghetto of East Flatbush until Junior High School (which happened to be on the border of Flatbush and Midwood). Flatbush is home of Abner Louima and all sorts of ghetto fun. Where did you grow up, Steve?</p>

<p>It's true, Morningside heights is very safe because it's basically filled with Columbia students and faculty. The crack types rarely venture below 125th or west of morningside park b/c of the gentrification of that area, but they are most definitely present in ample quantity above 125th and west of morningside park.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.morningside-heights.net/crime.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.morningside-heights.net/crime.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Notice the curve to the right of campus. That's morningside park. Notice the dark red coloring of the area to the right of the park, that's from the crack dealers committing crime.</p>

<p>Don't even talk to me about Washington Heights which is where the medical center is, I volunteered at Columbia Presbyterian two years ago and the surrounding neighborhood is almost as dangerous as the area east of Morningside park. If you look at the above crime map, the medical center itself is the light colored area in that sea of red north of Columbia's undergrad campus/Barnard/GSB, near where the land juts out to the west.</p>

<p>I'm sure that the crime situation will improve for the area above 125th as Columbia assimilates more and more of that land/buildings into its manhattanville project (manhattanville is the only light red area on columbia's borders), but it's still not safe to go above 125th and east of morningside park by yourself.</p>

<p>If you can't walk in the street at night as an able-bodied male near morningside park, what makes you think the area is safe for females? Also, since when is an area where you can't walk at night safe?</p>

<p>Perhaps you're right about only 10% of the population being liberal anarchists, but when I get to walk by the Spartacist League (Give IRAN NUKES TO PREVENT IMPERIALIST AMERICA FROM INVADING) every day, handed flyers by La Roche fanatics every other day, and implored to donate to all the PIRG's projects (Sierra Club, Greenpeace, etc...) for 12 weeks it gives me the impression that they wouldn't be at Columbia if there wasn't a large target group for them....</p>

18

<p>If you don't distinguish between the Sierra Club and the Spartacist League, I guess you don't take many flyers.</p>

<p>As for La Roche, I believe he is a right wing nut, not a left wing one. I don't think there is a large target group, or possibly any target group, for either La Roche or the Spartacist League at Columbia, whatever their aspirations.</p>

<p>It's good to see you agree that Morningside Heights is a safe area, filled with Columbia students and faculty.</p>

19

<p>
[quote]
Perhaps you're right about only 10% of the population being liberal anarchists, but when I get to walk by the Spartacist League (Give IRAN NUKES TO PREVENT IMPERIALIST AMERICA FROM INVADING) every day, handed flyers by La Roche fanatics every other day, and implored to donate to all the PIRG's projects (Sierra Club, Greenpeace, etc...) for 12 weeks it gives me the impression that they wouldn't be at Columbia if there wasn't a large target group for them....

[/quote]

they need something to rant about, and somehow every year they recruit a dozen or two impressionable freshmen... but really, most of us just find them annoying. The campus Democrats mailing list has maybe 15% of the campus on it.</p>

<p>The Spartacists aren't even the most annoying, the International Socialist Organization are the fools who interrupt perfectly interesting lectures by everyone from William Bennett to Sen. John Edwards to Salman freaking Rushdie with their antics. Their lack of respect is apparent to everyone but themselves, trust me.</p>

20

<p>Yes and note that the "target" of such groups, and the groups on campus are primarily the New York/Upper West Side chapters of these organizations, are the audiences of large lectures given by prominent public officials rather than the average Columbia student. I find them, more than anything, an amusing diversion if they happen to be around on campus- I think the ISO sets its little card table up once a week or so, rarely more. </p>

<p>Far more aggravating are the religious zealots attempting to invite me to Bible or Torah study or whatever...masquerading as lost tourists with their "excuse me, do you go here?"</p>

<p>I actually second Eugenie's comments on the administration. It's vile. Occasionally I sympathize with the 1968 protesters for doing everything they could to subvert it. There's a reason the New Left and all its rhetoric about "the System" found such fertile ground at Columbia. Denzera is, however, right that there is the occasional person of higher cognitive function that will warm the heart of the jaded Columbian with unexpected kindness, understanding, and sensibility. </p>

<p>Having worked in the far more distressing bureaucracy of the US Government, I can honestly say that the madness of Columbia both paled by comparison and proved excellent preparation (vs. the coddling care I received at my small religious high school) for the institutions one has to deal with in later life. Columbia students do not enter the "real world" expecting everything to be facilitated smoothly. We receive an excellent education in dealing with the sort of extreme incompetence that's prevalent in every corporation, institution, or government.</p>