<p>i think columbia is probably a tougher place to be happy. nyc can eat you alive. it also offers tons of things that, given your interests, would be benefits you couldn’t get at princeton. personally, i say princeton.</p>
<p>nyc can eat you alive? let’s not fear monger.</p>
<p>astonmartin, i’d like to hear the reasons that you cited. at present, your post contains nothing of value and makes a very vague claim without justification. hardly helpful.</p>
<p>not the relationship between astonmartin’s post here and on the penn thread - i smell ■■■■■.</p>
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lolz</p>
<p>10 char</p>
<p>I don’t know if anyone’s heard, but readers at the Daily Princetonian are going nuts over their Class of 2013 acceptance figures (9.8%). Obviously, it’s about their fear of falling further behind Harvard, Yale and Stanford (all around 7% accept rate) in prestige, and they’re placing the blame on “grade deflation” (grading curve), the Senior Thesis, more minority students (they recently broke the 20% Asian barrier) and the admin’s demonization of their eating clubs.</p>
<p>I had seen some discontent on the Princeton board here, but I did not realize how poor the morale is for current students and recent alumni. They’re whining about not getting into med/law/business school because of the curve, and horror-of-horrors, falling behind schools like Columbia and Brown in recruiting top students. Some of the posters are Yalies who are rubbing their hands with glee, but many sound like current Princeton students who really regret their choice.</p>
<p>I’m pretty sure that it will be only be a temporary setback for Princeton, but for Class of 2013 students trying to decide which college to attend, be forewarned.</p>
<p>Check out the thread for yourself: [Admission</a> rate rises to 9.79 percent for Class of 2013 - The Daily Princetonian](<a href=“http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/04/01/23213/]Admission”>http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/04/01/23213/)</p>
<p>Tough choice!</p>
<p>I think the decision will really come down to whether you want to be in the middle of the city or in a suburban area very close to the city; whether you want a university more focused on undergraduate education or whether going to Columbia where the main focus is on graduate students woll not bother you; and whether you like the laid-back attitude of Columbia students vs. the more high-strung personalities of Princeton students (generally speaking, of course).</p>
<p>I love Columbia as a graduate student, and personally I might pick Princeton as an undergrad and try to go to Columbia for graduate school 
I must admit that the sleepy nature of the city could be a plus for undergrad, but it’s still very accessible to New York (the NJ Transit train can get you there in 30 minutes or less). And this eating club business sounds appealing. Reading about it almost makes me wish I had gone to Princeton for undergrad, lol!</p>
<p>And this CoffeeAddict person seems to advocate just about any school over Columbia, lol!</p>
<p>Also, I’d say that the Princeton alums and students going “crazy” because the admissions rate is 3-percentage points behind Harvard and Yale are probably overreacting. Princeton is still recognized as one of the most prestigious schools in the country, and the name recognition and prestige factor is still higher than that of Columbia and Penn’s (not much, though) and at the line of Harvard and Yale.</p>
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<p>nope, it’s quite a trek to NYC, at least 1-1:20 hour from campus to manhattan.</p>
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<p>I don’t what you’re studying but Columbia’s focus is definitely on its ungrads, it requires most profs to teach undergrad classes, and the core is an example of how it focuses on the undergrad. The classes at the undergrad level are small and the undergrad student:faculty ratio is 6.5:1, that’s pretty impressive by any measure.</p>
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<p>I’ve actually been to several, if my social life revolved around them, I’d shoot myself. I went with friends from both columbia and princeton, so i wasn’t lonely. Our frat parties are pretty bad also, but our social life is usually unconnected to frats.</p>
<p>There is no way that Columbia can be undergraduate focused. It has 7,000 undergrads compared to 16,000 grads. I am not arguing whether it has a good undergraduate experience, but Columbia is definitely more of a graduate institution.</p>
<p>hallowarts - well the numbers are deceiving and it really shows how little you must be aware of columbia. There IS a way that Columbia can be undergraduate focused.</p>
<p>1) most graduate students are housed in professional schools that often have little to nothing to do with undergraduate life - further they have their own endowments, faculty and purpose. so i rarely see any students in the school of social work, school of public health, nursing school, etc., though they are counted in the numbers.<br>
2) 6.5 student to faculty ratio only refers to professors in the Graduate School of Arts and Science and the Engineering School - the schools of interest to Columbians. So what we could say at the least is that if we considered ugrad a fiefdom of its own then it is a pretty solid ugrad institution (as you even mention above)
3) I can at least offer this anecdote: I found Columbia to be nicer to undergrads than what we would properly call a graduate student (PhD). Professors have often said that they are not quite as interested in mentoring grad students as they enjoy teaching in the core or working with bright undergrads. It is also the culture around the schools is that the undergrads have risen steadily to prominence in the university, and like Princeton et al., the university has realized that it will live or die by the happiness of its undergraduates (and it has done well by that mantra of late). </p>
<p>4) The one byproduct of having a large university with many schools is that sometimes it is hard to cross school divides and to easily form alliances with schools though a lot of this too is starting to crumble (especially with the elevation of the Dean of the College to the level of Vice President). It means that the same registrar who deals with ugrads has to deal with dozens of other schools, which means you are limited on what you can add to students transcripts. Rarely are these issues large or severely limiting, but especially when you want to do something quickly they can be annoying and tedious to deal with. It is usually the biggest criticism of Columbia - once I got used to it I could figure out how to play organizations against each other to get even more what I needed, in a sadistic way it has its advantages. I should note that Columbia is working to minimize this long term as all universities that care about streamlining for cost effectiveness and also for ease of marketing. During my tenure at CU I noticed significant improvements in many areas - many I should say were a result of student action. In this regard I wont pretend to compare Princeton to Columbia - Pton students have it easy and silver-plattery. I think Columbia makes you tough, push to the front of the line of sorts, and I appreciate it - but once again it is something that someone who has the stomach and the adventure for it will enjoy - and long-term I think they get more out of it.</p>
<p>But the notion that having more graduate students immediately means you must be graduate focused…well I’d ask the graduate students how they feel, and most complain how the ugrads have it great - control the student center, priority of space, the university bends over backwards (honestly) to allow for the core when most universities can get by offering fewer courses.</p>
<p>Princeton is definitely a cozier, tighter-knit community. It is completely focused on the undergraduate. There is absolutely no doubt about this. The students are extremely nice and friendly to each other (obviously not every individual but the vaaast majority). You’re basically living in a castle, if that appeals to you. I would say that very few people are actually lonely here. The student body is small enough that you are constantly running into your friends. While the eating clubs have a negative stereotype, they do localize the social scene. When you go to the Street, you know you have a good chance of running into people you know. I have gone to the Street by myself, assuming I would into friends. I’ve never been wrong, and my friends at other schools tell me they would never think of relying on ‘luck’ to run into somebody at the party scenes of their schools. Though the eating clubs are integral to the ‘party scene’ here, room parties are also frequent. These usually end with somebody screaming, “ALRIGHT LETS HIT THE STREEEET.” Smaller, “just chilling”, environments to drink and socialize are also common, especially among upperclassmen. New York City is easy to get to, providing you have some time and enough money for the train ticket. Princeton, NJ is not that exciting, but it is cozy. Students don’t generally need to get off campus anyway. There’s a surplus of study space on campus. I will admit the difficulty of finding snacks past 3am, depending on where you live on campus. If you live downcampus it’s no problem, upcampus it’s a bit of a walk down to the WaWa. You feel extremely safe here. People leave their laptops unattended at libraries and the student center to get up and get cups of coffee all the time (obviously still not a good idea but I do it all the time).</p>
<p>The absolute devotion that most students display to the school is inexplicable, but tangible. All the alums I’ve ever met from here share it. The school simply brings scholars together in a way that I honestly think cannot be compared elsewhere.</p>
<p>If you’re looking for a buzzing, energetic, loud community then Columbia is probably best. It’s probably more exciting.</p>
<p>Also, the students at Princeton are by and large, the friendliest people I’ve ever met. The vast majority of us are not elitist or snobby, despite the negative stereotype.</p>
<p>princeton12 - thanks for the perspective. what do you think about princeton increasing the size of the class? do you think it will change the feel of the school?</p>
<p>and my usual gripe against princeton is the lack of realism (i.e. you are the 10th person to mention leaving laptop unattended) is that it is not an entree into real life, but akin to some fancy rehab clinic in Arizona - it is a recluse from reality. to some that is college, to me it is not.</p>
<p>but if we are going to use leaving your laptop unattended as the example par excellence of safe place - we columbians do that all the time too, have you been to Butler during Finals week? I was one of the few people who was so paranoid that I would always ask someone to watch my computer for me if i left, though many others were less cautious and would sometimes leave it at the library all night while they went out to drink. </p>
<p>and the last thing i will bring up - go blue.</p>
<p>I mean… in real life when will you really need to know the things we learn about in school anyway? I honestly don’t think my knowledge of folk saints in South America will really be necessary. Obviously in the real world we won’t feel that same sense of trust in our community… because everybody will be a stranger, and you don’t get the same sense of ‘togetherness’ that you do in college. My sense of “reality” really wasn’t a big factor in my college decision. I too faced a Brown v. Columbia v. Princeton decison. I will probably live in NYC sometime after college, either while in grad school (if I choose to attend grad school) or just… living there. </p>
<p>While I don’t have the advantages of NYC right outside my doorstep, I know that I’ll eventually get there after undergrad, and I didn’t see the rush. Why would I pass up living in this happy bubble (especially with the generous financial aid offered)?</p>
<p>I don’t think my sense of reality is warped. I won’t be leaving my purse in random places out in the real world. And believe me, interpersonal relationships are still very real here. The friendships, the relationships, are all still very real. Our emotions are still real. We still have to deal with very real issues, and the students at Princeton really do work their asses off during the week. Yes, we’re friendly and we know how to relax and we know how to party, but you can bet that we are also working extremely hard. Grade deflation has intensified the workload here. Life isn’t perfect, but I don’t think I could be any happier with the number of individuals that genuinely concern themselves with my well-being.</p>
<p>And not just students. I’ve faced a lot of extreme personal difficulty here and the members of the administration have been absolutely kind and understanding, doing everything in their power to help me out when I’ve been in need. They remember my name, they send emails to check up on me and see how I’m doing. I am very clearly not just a number or just some other student that needs help. They actually do concern themselves with the students on a very personal level. </p>
<p>The professors have never been difficult when they’ve dealt with me, even in regards to deadlines and requests for extensions.</p>
<p>And while there is a permeating sense of safety, obviously there is risk everywhere. I have personal experience with it here, and I don’t think it was the university that lulled me into a sense of safety in that instance. It was naivete.</p>
<p>Princeton is not any better or more prestigious then Columbia. This question is completely about FIT. Visit both and you will know where you fit.</p>
<p>I’d like to clarify one misconception:</p>
<p>It is not at all ‘easy’ to get into NYC from Princeton NJ. It’s actually very difficult and expensive to get back late at night. Even an express train takes 70 minutes to reach Princeton Junction from Penn Station (seriously, look at the schedules - [MTA</a> Home Page](<a href=“http://www.mta.info%5DMTA”>http://www.mta.info) ) and then you have to wait for the jitney bus to take you the last 5 miles to campus. And it stops running at midnight so if you had a fun evening you have to pay a cabbie the $30 they ask to shuttle you those 5 miles. Trust me, I lived with a Princeton guy for a year after we both graduated, he LOVED his school but it was not transportationally convenient at all.</p>
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that would be true at most large prestigious research universities. For example, one that rhymes with Starvard. But at Columbia, the amount of care (And faculty resources) devoted to the core is sort of proof positive about the amount the University cares about the education of its undergrads. We’ve always had the most “traditionalist” curriculum of the top schools, and in a way that too is proof that Columbia cares about its undergrads. As an undergrad I often saw ways in which grad students were discriminated against in favor of my fellow undergrads - lots of little things, in the student center or at the gym or little fees here and there only for grad students… they really emphasize it.</p>
<p>that, plus everything admissionsgeek said.</p>