Columbia vs Princeton ED

Colleges and Universities A-Z Columbia University
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<p>help - Columbia vs. Princeton ED (esp for people who've attended them) </p>

<hr>

<p>I know I definitely want to ED because I'm a kinda lazy bastard and would REALLY like to only ever have to write one application and be done by December. I have the transcript to get a shot at both. Plus I figure I'm going to have to make the decision eventually, so might as well do it now.</p>

<p>My major criteria isn't so much the academics - I figure both are comparably stellar - as the social scene and surrounding atmosphere. On one hand, Columbia offers living in Manhattan, which is a lifestyle all by itself....and on the other hand, Princeton pretty much exemplifies the traditional closed-off campus experience (and has the nicest campus). </p>

<p>So what I'm wondering is, does that really make a big difference in your college life there? Does it turn out that Princeton (or campus schools in general) would be more tight-knit, while in Columbia (or urban schools in general) the campus empties, and students tend to band off into small groups to explore NYC and you sacrifice campus life? And if I don't shop and don't like partying all that much, does NYC really have that much to offer?</p>

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<p>Excellent question.</p>

<p>I live with a guy from Princeton, so with some anecdotes from him, i'll try to give you both sides.</p>

<p>Columbia obviously offers both the pros and cons of being in a big city, whereas Princeton offers the pros and cons of being its own little bubble in (comparatively) the middle of nowhere. Some major differences:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>You have to worry about crime at Columbia: laptops get stolen, pockets get picked on the subways, bikes get taken, etc. Generally, unless you do something stupid you're fine, but it's a background stress. Dorms are more secure because of round-the-clock doormen. At Princeton, students will regularly leave their laptops lying around the student center to go get a cup of coffee, it's much more free and easy.</p></li>
<li><p>Things are open all night at Columbia. Pizza joints are open till 4 (Pinnacle is all night), 4 local supermarkets within 10 blocks are open all night, Tom's Diner (of Seinfeld fame) is open till 3:30AM as are the many bars in the area. At Princeton, they roll up the sidewalks substantially earlier and you have to drive to find anything open late.</p></li>
<li><p>Columbia's student body is much more diverse. There's a huge percentage of students who are international or URMs, whereas at Princeton it's much more homogeneous. My roommate was in the eating club that the black student union joined, and they basically circled the wagons and didn't say much to everyone else.</p></li>
<li><p>Living space at Columbia is a double-edged sword: people are put into dense corridor-style dorms or apartment-style suites. However, any freshman who wants a single can get one (unusual at most schools), and a few upperclass dorms have big living rooms and bedrooms. Space is more generous at Princeton, although a greater percentage of students have roommates.</p></li>
<li><p>Eating clubs form the nexus of social interaction (and parties) at Princeton. Selection can, on occasion, be catty or political - they're essentially frats. These things are big, unsupervised and well-funded (many have their own chef, which club dues pay for year-round). Columbia's frats often have parties too, if that's your thing, but many other students have parties in their rooms, floors, suites, or even off-campus. The frats are a nonessential part of social activity.</p></li>
<li><p>In both places, most people make a bunch of friends from people they meet in their classes and those who live near them freshman year. Students have social circles after the first few weeks but generally stay open-minded.</p></li>
<li><p>It's an hour-and-a-half train ride from Princeton to NYC, and that only gets you to the train station. The last 4 miles from the "Princeton Junction" train station to campus are run by a jitney bus that stops service around midnight. Aside from that, cabs can be very predatory, charging whatever they think they can get the silly rich kids to pay (my buddy got hosed for $20 for those 4 miles when he went to visit his girlfriend on saturday). Columbia is 10 minutes from the restaurants and bars of the upper west side, 20 minutes from most of midtown or the west village, and 45 minutes from brooklyn if you really feel like exploring.</p></li>
<li><p>Columbia's campus buildings can have a spectacular view, not just of the campus but of all of the manhattan skyline. If you're clever, you might learn how to go up on the roof of some of those buildings. Princeton's campus has a lot more trees and natural scenery (not that Columbia's is barren, but the % of concrete is sure higher), and a lot more space between buildings.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>One of the things that makes Columbia unique is that because we actually have a campus, with a quad, lawns, <em>gasp</em> trees, etc (as opposed to, say, NYU), there is actually life on campus. During nice weather, hundreds of students will sit out on the steps and hang out, play music, pretend to work, play football or frisbee on south lawn, etc. At night on the weekends, certainly many people go downtown, but there's also plenty to do that doesn't require a commute or subway fare (both of which are enough disincentives for some students), so many choose to hang out on campus. Obviously, with hundreds of student organizations, both schools have a bunch of activity options for those looking to do something other than party.</p>

<p>My recommendation is to try to stay overnight at both places - ideally on a weekend - before making a decision. IMHO that is the absolute best way to get a sense of a campus and its students and social life. If you ask me or my roommate, neither of us would have wanted to trade our experience for the other school, so obviously either one makes a lot of people happy.</p>

<p>Hope that helps,
Steve</p>

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<p>Thanks so much for that. Your answer was really thorough and helpful.</p>

<p>The thing about Columbia is I've heard some about kids from my international school coming to Columbia (and NYU too) and ending up completely lonely; but then again, i suppose you can get lonely at any college. But what I want to know about Columbia is does it seem any less tight-knit than a normal college would because it's placed in NYC? Like, do students - trying to be stereotypical New Yorkers - try to spend their lives out in Manhattan and use Columbia's campus basically just as their living and study space? Or is the campus and Morningside Heights still a center for a real tangible student community? Plus, do parties and other social gatherings mostly take place on campus or in the bars/cities?</p>

<p>And as for NYC itself...how much does it really have to offer, when you get past the typical "most active city in the world" and all the hyperbole? It's a city, so obviously there's malls, clubs, bars, and internships...but aside from that does it add significantly more to the experience? (Plus I'm also a big indie fan...so if you know anything about the music scene there that'd be a plus too :)</p>

<p>And also for Princeton, does me being international (Asian-American, from Taiwan) pose difficulties to fitting in or anything? i know in NYC it's not going to be a problem...but Princeton does have that homogenous reputation. And does the relative isolation of Princeton serve to create more of a "surrounded by students" tight-knit feel for the community, or does it work out to be a little bit TOO ivory tower-ish?</p>

<p>And finally, about the academics...Columbia's core especially. As a Columbia student (or former one), what'd you think of the core curriculum? It's an awful lot of mandatory courses, and while I like the idea - I've always felt a grounding in that kind of literature's important - does it really work out in execution? Or is it too much reading, too little time, not enough people actually sincerely invested in the classes?</p>

<p>hahaha I'm sorry; I realize this is an awful lot of questions =p. But I'm really torn between the two and I think i need to gobble up every bit of information to decide.</p>

<p>As for living on both campuses for a week...I'd give anything to do that. But unfortunately I live in Taiwan so it's not really possible. Ugh.</p>

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<p>On Loneliness: It may in fact be easier to become isolated and lonely at Columbia than Princeton, but it's certainly not the norm nor does anyone who actively seeks friends find themself in such a situation. The problem is primarily that single rooms allow for isolation and corridor dorms for anonymity to some extent (esp. after freshman year). The solution is simple: opening one's door, going out and about on campus, joining student activities, even participating in online student stuff which is becoming more and more prevalent. </p>

<p>On New York: Yes, it does have more to offer than malls, clubs, bars, and internships; you will in fact be required to explore its musea and attend concerts in its famous halls for classes. And there are quite a few of each in the city, not even counting the outer boroughs. Then there are, of course, the theatrical productions, myriad art house cinemas (where movies are released well ahead of the rest of the country), and fascinating stores. Additionally, it's an interesting place to simply walk around: the abundance of immigrant neighborhoods, teeming avenues, pristine and bucolic parks...and even if one is simply after academic or preprofessional resources, it hardly gets better than the New York Public Library, reporting on New York news (as opposed to Princeton's or New Haven's) for campus publications, or researching at the Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center. </p>

<p>On the Core: It can indeed be hit or miss, but most people are generally appreciative of it, if not as enthused as they were as freshmen. It honestly depends on your expectations. Contemporary Civilization will not be a Viennese salon with your friends acting the parts of Krauss or Freud. It, and other Core classes, will be a means to understanding significant works of literature, philosophy, and art. It's important to consider that class participation will generally enhance your experience, but the lack thereof will not harm your apprehension of the texts. and as for the readings: they're honestly not that bad; SparkNotes are of course available at crunch times (or always), and in the case of Lit Hum it's (relatively) faster-paced fiction. </p>

<p>I'll leave you with some thoughts on it from a professor quoted in the most recent edition of the Blue & White, a campus magazine:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Bulliet found that “this seemingly conservative curriculum is actually a very radical curriculum.” Its radicalism, for Bulliet, comes from the fact that it approaches its material without lectures from experts or secondary texts, under the direction of non-expert instructors left to their own devices. This approach, he believes, allows a uniquely fruitful kind of discussion that cultivates good habits of critical reading and thinking.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think that applies whether or not you, and your classmates, were too burdened to do the reading or make pathbreaking comments; those skills emerge from the aspect of approaching the texts directly yourself.</p>

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<p>What I would add to that is the characterization that, deep in its character, Columbia is a "tough" school. its students are "tough" people - not necessarily jerks, but pushy, self-driven, entrepreneurial. It is set in a "tough" city that teaches you to worry about a lot of "adult" things pretty quickly. The first hobo who comes up to you asking for "spare change" will probably get a dollar out of you... by the 20th or 200th one, you'll be saying "sorry" just like the rest of us. Going on a subway can be scary for someone from the midwest or a foreign country... but by the end of freshman year, you're an expert. Being so close to minority neighborhoods can make you feel awkard or in danger, but an understanding and appreciation for those unlike ourselves is one of the gifts NYC has to offer. Columbia will shelter you to a certain degree (i.e. you don't have to go buy and cook your food if you don't want to) but the rewards are greater for those willing to fend for themselves (i.e. going up to washington heights and coming back with some awesome Dominican recipes and ingredients). That aspect of the school, Columbia's toughness, appealed to me because I like any environment that rewards audacity. The bureaucracy will infuriate the doormats who attend the school, but for a few who learn the lesson on how to "play the game" and find opportunities, you can end up with better classes, housing, internships, and all other perks.</p>

<p>I don't know to what extent the same can be said for Princeton, but its surrounding environment offers many fewer challenges - that generalization is no doubt true. I can't speak to heterogeneity at Princeton (although i'll ask Matt when he gets home), but Asians who speak excellent English tend to fit in fairly well with a college's culture, in ways that other minorities (who tend to self-segregate) do not. Columbia has a larger asian population though.</p>

<p>There is much to Manhattan besides "malls [nonexistent, really], clubs, bars, and internships". Every corner or block has some sort of hole-in-the-wall that is priceless. The best sushi within walking distance from Columbia is a restaurant that is so small it seats 6, and is easy to miss as you walk by... but you can get a 3-roll combo for $7 and barely finish it all. Head downtown, turn a corner, and in between a french restaurant and a pizza place might be some historical landmark, or a famous bookstore, or a charming little park where community residents tend to some gardens. Sure, you have the museums and skyscrapers and bridges and all that. But it's the tiny things about manhattan that enrich the lifestyle here... the guy setting up a used book shop on a few tables along the sidewalk, and selling you hours of entertainment for $3. The random street fairs, or the farmer's markets, that let you try endless variety just for the price of walking out your door. A lot of these happen on campus - you'll look out your window and see hundreds of vendors set up on the plaza, selling jewelry, posters, room decorations, books, plants, whatever you like. The winter can totally transform the city (and you can count on at least one big snowstorm each year) and you might find yourself with a sled and a few friends finding a big hill and going sledding. Or looking for a pair of jeans and running into Julia Roberts or someone else famous. Life in New York is peppered with dozens of amusing, unique or intriguing vignettes every day, and the more you explore the more you appreciate its value.</p>

<p>Columbia students go out into the city less than you might think from the way everyone talks about it. During the semester, I might've "gone downtown" for some purpose (shopping, or an outing) once a week or less. Those who hit bars/clubs/parties every weekend probably go downtown an average of 2 times a week. None but the biggest culture snobs flee the campus out of disdain. Walking around from class to class, you'll run into many people you know or have met, and in the evenings there's something going on everywhere on campus. The place never "empties" except during Breaks.</p>

<p>As for academics, you either love the core or you hate it, and those who hate it are few but vocal - probably because they shouldn't have come. This is a technical-sounding reason, but one of the things I like about having a core is that it gives me the chance to take rigorous courses in the classics or literature without subjecting me to the competitive disadvantage such classes would normally give me in GPA. Everyone has to do it, so nobody's getting away with taking all fluff classes. I also found the content to be really enjoyable... my lit hum class was one of the few classes i've ever taken that I really felt more educated at the end of. A lot of it depends on your teacher, and less of it depends on your classmates, but the approach is really rewarding if you're willing to put in the work. Some people can't handle it and wimp out with sparknotes, bull-s**tting, or lower grades, and those are the ones who usually complain. Personally, I would tend either do the work and complain (having earned the right), or take the tough-luck B and enjoy my free time spent elsewhere, like singing or frisbee.</p>

<p>Hope that assists your perspective... I imagine you're asking the same of the Princeton folks.</p>

<p>-Steve</p>

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<p>celestialfool, can i ask you how you narrowed it down to columbia and princeton? it seems that given your concerns a place like brown might be more fitting, since you'd get the campus-life without the isolation of princeton. brown (next door to risd and in providence) has a great indie scene; frankly, princeton doesn't have indie anything (except the princeton record exchange) and no decent live music to speak of</p>

<p>and i wouldn't dismiss your ambivalence to columbia's core, since one's sucess in that kind of program depends on devotion to its principles; in other words, you have to believe in the benefits of taking courses you might not really want to take! i don't know many people from columbia who found their core courses inspiring and wonderfully taught as courses, but many are proud to have read--or more likely, if unfortunately, skimmed-- a number of the greatest works of western thought.</p>

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<ol>
<li><p>princeton is not "isolated." it sits smack in the middle of the nation's most densely populated state, and an hour ride from both new york and philly. yes, the town itself is fairly quiet, but that just means the campus scene is very active, with students seeking socialization there rather than off-campus.</p></li>
<li><p>princeton is not "heterogeneous." among freshmen, 37% are minorities and 55% are on financial aid. those numbers compare favorably to all of the ivies, columbia included.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>Scottie, I think you meant "homogenous" rather than "heterogeneous".</p>

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<p>...and just because a campus has an active social scene is not an argument for its not being isolated. A nice place to visit, though.</p>

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<p>yes, dad, i meant to write "homogen[e]ous." thank you. and denz, i think you're misreading me. i did not say that princeton's active social scene is evidence of a lack of isolation. rather, i disputed the characterization of princeton as isolated in the first place, then added that to whatever extent it might actually BE isolated (perhaps relative to manhattan), that "isolation" has a positive effect on campus culture - as it does for most schools in small-town settings.</p>

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<p>I just wanted to bump a more friendly, more informative and less polarizing discussion on Columbia vs Princeton, for those looking for more relevant comparisons.</p>

<p>As always, feel free to ask questions.</p>