<p>
[quote]
They control for like a million variables
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</p>
<p>Like the fact that "preference" might have little to do with objective factors, even in relation to one's personal goals? How does it solve for people who want to live near home, or those taking the best financial aid package, for example?</p>
<p>Regarding Revealed Preference, you can decide for yourselves whether or not to "drink the kool-aid". </p>
<p>I believe the sample is not representative of the underlying population, which includes non-applicants. All the people who like BYU applied there, and they would and did prefer it . Their preferences were revealed. The underlying population include a far higher proportion of people who would not apply to BYU, and would not attend it if they were admitted vs. anyplace else. The preference of these non-applicants was not adequately revealed, in my opinion, judging from the results. Because the sample of applicants does not perfectly reflect the behavior of non-applicants. Whatever these equations say, this nuance was not captured appropriately in the results, which imply a preference for BYU in the underlying population of college applicants that is miles ahead where, IMO, BYU is really preferred by the mass population of applicants at large.</p>
<p>IF you think everything's just peachy then you think BYU really has this status in the population at large. Ditto Notre Dame. I don't.</p>
<p>There may be other applications in the social sciences where the sample can be deemed reasonably representative of the underlying population, in which case this methodology might be expected to yield more reasonable results. This is not the case here; non-applicants have themselves expressed a preference by not applying.</p>
<p>1) It's not the lowest rate in the nation. The head-to-head admissions rate is 10.4%. Still pretty badass.</p>
<p>2) Columbia won't be cracking the top 3 anytime soon for a very simple reason: $$$. The Endowment per Student ratio at HPY is insane. Harvard has between 4-5x the endowment than Columbia, slightly fewer students, and twice the square footage of space per student (for offices, labs, classrooms, and other facilities). Yale has half the students and about 3 times the endowment (coming out to a factor of roughly 6x), and three times the space per student, and Princeton has 1/4 the number of students, more than double the endowment (8x money per student), and also 3 times as much space per student. </p>
<p>3) Revealed Preferences, though old, does reveal something interesting- there's often a heavy overlap of admitted students, and they tend to prefer Brown even now it seems. And Penn has come on strong in the last decade.</p>
<p>The Ivy League has two tiers- HPY, and then the rest. Any attempt to rank the remaining 5 is just an exercise in ego massaging, as a case can be made for each school.</p>
<p>Now that the facts are straight, let's consider. Bollinger launched the Columbia Campaign this year. It's a $4 Billion capital campaign, with many impressive goals. Hand in hand with the capital campaign is the Manhattanville expansion. Columbia, despite it's space crunch, is probably the most efficient school at space management as a result. The plan is to cram a lot of good things into the area a few blocks from the main campus. With the increase in the endowment, the added research power from Manhattanville, and the University's rapidly improving alumni relations, there's room for growth. However the competition will be stiff- Penn is also expanding it's campus, as is Harvard. It's an exciting time for Columbia.</p>
<p>No I think the Ivies definitely have three tiers...</p>
<ol>
<li>HYP in whatever order</li>
<li>Columbia, Dart, Bronw in whatever order</li>
<li>Penn, Cornell</li>
</ol>
<p>"It's not the lowest rate in the nation. The head-to-head admissions rate is 10.4%. Still pretty badass." I think ppl were referring solely to CC when they were talking about the lowest rate in the nation. In this case they would be right. Also, I would put Dartmouth into the 3. tier, s snack, my reason being that it's probably it bit easier to get into than Columbia or Brown.</p>
<p>I bet Wharton has a pretty low admissions rate too. But I don't see Penn, or Cornell breaking out individual school stats when comparing against their Ivy peers. CC and SEAS are part of the same undergraduate school.</p>
<p>OK see, this is what I'm talking about with tiers. If you think Penn's that low, you're a fool. First, Wharton is on par with H. Second, Penn has a fiercely loyal alumni base. You'll wish your peers were as fanatical as penn supporters are. Lastly, in case you missed it, USNews has Penn ranked ahead of the other 4 Ivies. While most people think it's a little overrated (ranked ahead of Stanford?!? for a while...), it tells you something. As for Cornell, for all the talk about it being such a biiiig school- Columbia actually has more total students. Also, for pure engineering, Cornell has the best program in the Ivies, by far.</p>
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[quote]
Lastly, in case you missed it, USNews has Penn ranked ahead of the other 4 Ivies. While most people think it's a little overrated (ranked ahead of Stanford?!? for a while...), it tells you something.
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</p>
<p>That "something" being that the USNews rankings can be gamed and manipulated?</p>
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As for Cornell, for all the talk about it being such a biiiig school- Columbia actually has more total students.
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<p>Columbia is the smallest Ivy undergrad class (or thereabouts); Cornell is huge. It isn't really relevant that Columbia has lots of graduate students who you never see and may not even attend school on the same campus as you do (i.e., uptown at 168th).</p>
<p>
[quote]
That "something" being that the USNews rankings can be gamed and manipulated?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Hey, I didn't say penn was legitimately better ;) However, placing penn in a "lower tier" is still pure foolishness and just an attempt to make yourself feel better in my opinion. I don't advocate the putting down of other schools. Except Princeton...</p>
<p>
[quote]
Columbia is the smallest Ivy undergrad class (or thereabouts); Cornell is huge. It isn't really relevant that Columbia has lots of graduate students who you never see and may not even attend school on the same campus as you do (i.e., uptown at 168th).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>First, the "smallest ivy undergrad class" is a boldfaced lie, and even Columbia has stopped saying it. It's only if you count CC, and pretend SEAS doesn't count. Which is ludicrous. At a combined population of 5,654 in 2005, Columbia has more undergrads than Dartmouth (4,000) Princeton (4,635), Yale (5,300) and barely fewer than Brown (5,700). Second, the fact that Columbia has as many grad students as it does means that things are a bit crowded (especially considering how much space is in Ithaca), and that they're getting a large chunk of the resources, hence it is somewhat relevant. It's all about putting things in context. I prefer that people have facts, and not fluff.</p>
<p>Just to clarify, I'm CC'07 aand am an Uber-Troll most of the time. I just don't approve of rampant baseless boosterism, because it bothers me when trolls do it for other schools.</p>
<p>CN, what's the big deal? Nobody denied that fact that Cu has an admit rate of 10.4%. I don't understand why you're getting all mad. And I said that the ranking I made is based on personal preferences, not that it is objective. Neither do I assert that it reflects the truth... Lastly, I don't think that the US News ranking is an accurate depiction of the reality, I've seen a lot of very strange placements. Frankly, everyone is free to make his own Ivy ranking if he feels like it, I'm sure nobody would attack you for putting Penn on 1st place or something like that. Nobody says that Penn or Cornell are ACTUALLY in the 3rd tier, ppl mere say that this is how THEY feel.</p>
<p>Personal preference for a school is different from institutional judgment, which is what tiering usually is.</p>
<p>As per the 10.4% thing, I'm just pointing out that "headlining" 8.9% is the equivalent of touting Penn's admit rate for just Arts and Sciences and ignoring Wharton, Nursing, etc. Ditto at Cornell. No one else breaks out one number and then compares it head to head against peer schools. I'm sure if you did that you could find an even lower score at some other school in the country. Not to mention it implies that SEAS is somehow not part of "Columbia" when you talk about undergrads, which is absurd, and leads to an unfounded atmosphere of hierarchy on campu during freshman year until people realize it's silliness.</p>
<p>I apologize if I appeared mad. I'm just an advocate of the facts as they are, minus the spin.</p>
<p>I should clarify, I've been in some very ugly Troll Wars fighting for the honor of Alma Mater on the Hudson Shore. It's made me a little abrasive and sensitive to boosterism, but it's made me a better Troll when dueling with the other schools ;)</p>
<p>As a compensation I offer you all this: <a href="http://wikicu.com/School_songs%5B/url%5D">http://wikicu.com/School_songs</a></p>
<p>"Personal preference for a school is different from institutional judgment, which is what tiering usually is."
I agree, but adding the "this is just my personal opinion" should make it clear enough that it's really just my personal opinion, :D.</p>
<p>About the 10.4% thing, nobody said that it's right to use solely CC's admit right, ppl just did it without claiming that it's right, :).</p>
<p>"I apologize if I appeared mad." Nah, come on, we're all family now, :D.</p>
<p>
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Just to clarify, I'm CC'07 aand am an Uber-Troll most of the time.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Why hello, Tao...</p>
<p>
[quote]
we're all family now
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The first thing you'll learn about Columbia is that we're not.</p>
<p>There's a BIG smiley after that sentence...</p>
<p>Hahahaha, one person I definitely am not is Tao. Good guess though.</p>
<p>And yes, we're a VERY dysfunctional family. We have a partially estranged step-sister, an adopted asian child, and a black sheep cousin no one talks about. That's one of the reasons WikiCU was created, to cut through the misinformation, stereotypes, and myths.</p>
<p>Don't really understand why we're getting all this Penn fanboy-ism up in here. It's clearly at the bottom of the Ivies with Cornell.</p>
<p>Columbians seem to be the most anxious to put down Penn, how peculiar. Makes sense when they're duking it out for the spot of "best crappy ivy"</p>
<p>I'm rooting for Penn.</p>
<p>Columbia has some significant challenges facing it in the mid- and long-term that Penn does not face, or at least faces to a much less severe degree...</p>
<p>-Location: NYC is my favorite city in the world, but it is only a matter of time until a major terrorist attack(s?) severely dampens the appeal of going to school there. Whether neocons continue the foreign policies that incite terrorists or democrats repeal the surveillance mechanisms that foil them, something bad will happen. Philadelphia, as another major US city and likely target, would also suffer from terror contagion of sorts, but not to the same degree</p>
<p>-Campus cohesion. This should be fairly obvious. Manhattanville may be CU's best option, but it is by no means the same campus as Morningside. A single, beautiful, unified campus was a great asset of Columbia. M'ville will spell the end of one Columbia. Penn is fortunate enough to have adjacent space in which to expand.</p>
<p>Also worth noting (but not a major issue and of course subject to change), Penn raises more money</p>
<p>Penn is most definitely not up there with Brown, Columbia and Dartmout, let alone the holy trinity (HYP)...Everyone knows they play to the USNews rankings just like Duke and WashU do (and UChicago is starting to do), and honestly, before Penn started inflating itslef via USNews EVERYONE considered it the bottom Ivy, except for its rabid Alumni who have a sever inferiority complex.</p>
<p>Though to their credit they do have better spelling.</p>
<p>The times, they are a-changin....and in Penn's favor (of course one does not have to perceive such a change as against Columbia's favor, but to each his querulous own)</p>
<p>"-Location: NYC is my favorite city in the world, but it is only a matter of time until a major terrorist attack(s?) severely dampens the appeal of going to school there. Whether neocons continue the foreign policies that incite terrorists or democrats repeal the surveillance mechanisms that foil them, something bad will happen. Philadelphia, as another major US city and likely target, would also suffer from terror contagion of sorts, but not to the same degree"</p>
<p>Do you have to be this negativ, I've tried to suppress the thought of this until you came, thanks for that.</p>
<p>I thought i'd share my ranking. Though it probably wouldnt matter to anyone haha.</p>
<p>Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Columbia
Penn
Cornell
Brown
Dartmouth</p>