<p>
Is it not true that the embargo of Palestine is causing many innocent civilians to starve? Is it not true that the rocket attacks by Palestinian extremtists kill a fraction of innocent citizens that the Israel armed forces “accidentally” kill in Palestinian territories? Most Palestinians want some sort of peace treaty. It is exactly your views of generalizations that have exacerbated the conflict and created the need for professors that see the issue from a different point of view.</p>
<p>^^
Is it not true that the embargo will stop when Palestinians stop targeting civilians with suicide bombs and rockets?<br>
Is it not true that Palestinians purposely kill Israeli civilian targets, and then hide behind their own civilians, essentially killing their own as well?
Is it not true that the Palestinians elected Hamas, a terrorist organization that recently applauded the shooting of unarmed innocent students studying in an Israeli seminary library and shows no signs of wanting any sort of peace treaty?<br>
I do not deny that too many innocent Palestinians have been killed in this terrible conflict. As Golda Meir said, “When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons”.</p>
<p>It is exactly your views of generalizations that have exacerbated the conflict and created the need for professors that see the issue from a different point of view.</p>
<p>yea, w/regard to aznerd’s comments, i think it’s pretty safe to say that israeli forces don’t try to kill palestinian civilians in 99% of cases (sure, you could probably find a sprinkiling of instances where someone loses it and goes crazy…but unfortunately war can put a lot of stress on people and make them do strange things). as halbhalb metioned, if you understand the style of urban warfare employed by hamas and hezbollah, you understand that they’re not afraid to situate themselves in highly populated areas in order to carry out their attacks. the result, unfortunately, is civilian casualties when retaliation occurs. finally, if you stop and think about it, i don’t think “number of people” killed is a fair gauge of who’s right and who’s wrong here. the qassam rockets fired by palestinian terrorists are intended to kill as many civilians as possible; luckily, they have little to no accuracy and therefore don’t usually land where they’re supposed to. but make no mistake about the fact that the terrorists would use more accurate rockets if they could get them. until groups like hamas give up their hope of destroying an entire nation, there will be no peace. likewise, israel needs to stop its illegal settlements in the west bank. unfortunately, the palestinian people haven’t helped their cause in this regard by electing a terrorist organization to run their government in the gaza strip.</p>
<p>You can not punish an entire people for the actions of a few members. Some example:</p>
<p>-1 Person in your class cheats on a test, then teacher gives all 30 Fs (is that fair?)</p>
<p>brostrad, from what I understand from your argument is that since palistinian civilians kill israli civilians it becomes ok for the israli government to kill palistinian civillians?</p>
<p>haha no, that’s not what i said. the israeli government does not try to nor does it want to kill palestinian civilians. the nature of the warfare that palestinian terrorists fight, however, makes it such that there will be collateral damage. if you send a rocket at me from a building in the middle of a city, i send my air force to strike back. maybe i’ll try to destroy the building so that you won’t use it to fire rockets anymore. in striking back, there very well might be collateral damage (b/c there are people around or perhaps within the building). and that’s a sad fact of the way that terrorists in that region wage war. if they cared more about the lives of their own people, they wouldn’t do it like that.</p>
<p>palestinian terrorists send rockets on cities not in the interest of destroying an army outpost (although they’d be happy to do that too) but rather in the interest of terrorizing and killing civilians. there’s a marked difference in intent here. and we’re not talking one rocket every month…they’ve sent thousands within the last few years (not including the ones hezbollah has fired). if a rocket randomly landed in or around your city every day, would you not be scared and would you not put pressure on your govt. to respond in some fashion? i think you would. anyway, i don’t really think this is the place for this type of debate. we get enough of it in the media and elsewhere. the point is that columbia has done well by establishing this department, and hopefully they’ll do their best to ensure that all viewpoints are fairly represented.</p>
<p>Plzaccept: Israeli forces are not fighting with the intent to kill civilians,m they are fighting TERRORISTS that are - many times purposely - in places where many civilians are located so that casualites are high. I have never once heard of an israeli soldier going into a palestinian school and shooting innocent students like what a palestinian terrorist did in an israeli yeshiva this past week. And then in Gaza the people rejoice because of the deaths. Do you see Israelis dancing in the streets when Palestinian civilians are killed? I thought so.</p>
<p>C2K2, you of all people should know to take anything the Sun reports about the Columbia with a bottle of salt.</p>
<p>A friend of mine, who is a non-zionist Jew , gave me two quotes by former prime minister of Israel Ariel Sharon. These two quotes REALLY made me stop and think about America’s relationship with Israel.</p>
<p>“I Don’t Care What The American People Think, I Own The Congress.” …OUCH, If this is even partially true, what happenned to Democracy? </p>
<p>An acrimonious argument erupted during the Israeli cabinet weekly session last week between Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and his foreign Minister Shimon Peres during which Sharon reportedly yelled at Peres, saying “don’t worry about American pressure, we control America.” </p>
<p>According the Israeli Hebrew radio Kol Yisrael Wednesday, Peres warned Sharon that refusing to heed incessant American requests for a cease-fire with the Palestinians would endanger Israeli interests and turn the US against us. </p>
<p>At this point, a furious Sharon reportedly turned toward Peres, saying “every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.” </p>
<p>The radio said Peres and other cabinet ministers warned Sharon against saying what he said in public, because “it would cause us a public relations disaster.” </p>
<p>By the way, I am a third generation, Catholic American.</p>
<p>This does not really relate to the topic, but it does since the discussion does involve the legitimacy of Israel.</p>
<p>that quote was a hoax originating with the pro-hamas Islamic Association for Palestine and spread through hate-mongers like David Duke and people eager to blame the Jews and Israel for the world’s problems (possibly including your friend). [Chicago</a> Reader: Hot Type](<a href=“http://www.chicagoreader.com/hottype/2002/020628_1.html]Chicago”>http://www.chicagoreader.com/hottype/2002/020628_1.html)</p>
<p>^^
sorry, that wasn’t meant to be a knock on your friend, he probably didn’t know it was a fake quote, I probably wouldn’t bother checking sources on things. I just get frustrated when sh** like this gets thrown around like fact because it spreads like a wildfire.</p>
<p>First off, you don’t really have to apologize, since my friend is used to being called a self-hating Jew, when all he does is try to take an objective look at the situation. For the record, he is vehemently against zionism. </p>
<p>Second, I don’t blame you for taking a shot at the sources of these quotes. However, after looking at both sides of the argument there doesn’t really seem to be any real sources for the side saying it’s all a fabrication. While on the other side, it was reported on radio and in an Israeli newspaper. </p>
<p>CAMERA (the main source cited in your link) is wildy pro-Israel (that’s there whole objective). And we didn’t really see any effort by Sharon to denounce these words.</p>
<p>I didn’t call your friend a self-hating jew, I simply said that he doesn’t check his sources and spews hate. I don’t think that reading IAP news is the best way to “take an objective look at the situation”. Being vehemently opposed to Zionism and being denying the truth are completely different things.</p>
<p>I could make a newspaper and claim that Bush says that his policies are entirely derived from the teachings of ‘XYZ Radical Ideology’. I can also then claim that this was corroborated from a direct quote on CNN and in the Boston Globe. Does this mean anything? None of the supposed original sources can corroborate the story. Don’t you think that if this was true, it would have been picked up by every major newspaper at the time?</p>
<p>Also, you discredit CAMERA for being pro-Israel, but not IAP for being anti-Israel. How come?</p>
<p>First, sorry for assuming that when you think my friend is a self-hating Jew when you were sorta kinda hinting at that notion.</p>
<p>The IAP is anti-israel, but nobody ever said they were a source. They were simply the ones who brought these quotes to America. </p>
<p>Given the name of the IAP, at least they admit to having a political cause, instead of insinuating that they are objective judges of middle east politics (which is what CAMERA does). </p>
<p>The quotes were cited by a well-founded radio station and a respected newspaper. It was not just random news sources reporting this information. </p>
<p>“Don’t you think that if this was true, it would have been picked up by every major newspaper at the time?”</p>
<p>Considering the enormous power that CAMERA has, it is reasonable to think that CAMERA found a way to convince them not to report this. (Just speculation). But I really do not understand why Sharon simply said we do not control America (which is the only way to effectively put these rumors to bed)?</p>
<p>halbhalb, you are quickly losing this argument</p>
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</p>
<p>seriously?? in the american media? you must be joking</p>
<p>i think two things are very telling here: the first is that no major media outlet ever reported this story (the exception apparently being the woman’s column in the Chicago Tribune). the second is that the woman who wrote the column can’t even confirm the veracity of the quotations. for starters, that’s bad journalism. furthermore, i’d question whether your friend is really looking at the situation objectively if he’s willing to sloppily throw around quotes such as these. israel and ariel sharon know that they’d be in big trouble if it weren’t for american support; to be sure, sharon’s smarter than to think he controls america. a final point is that these quotes eerily resemble the type of information contained in a small book known as the “protocols of the elders of zion,” a document which is widely distributed throughout the arab world and which details the supposed jewish plot to control the world and other viciously anti-semitic sentiments. you can find it at the news stands in many arab countries. in any case, this is reminiscent of the kind of stuff that has been thrown around about jews for centuries, so i would be extremely cautious before labelling it as fact.</p>
<p>binghamton, i find it funny that you’re citing the sources for this information when the original journalist can’t verify them herself. if you can find the info, then great! let us know. finally, if you know what gets propagated in the arab media on a daily basis, you know that there’s a lot of israel/jew-hating. look no further than the enormously visible president of iran if you don’t believe me (and iran’s not even an arab country!). i don’t think ariel sharon has (had) time to dispel all of these kinds of statements. using your logic, we might as well conclude that america in fact orchestrated 9/11. why won’t bush come out and deny these claims if they are in fact false? simply put, he has better things to do. </p>
<p>shraf, certainly american television media can be pretty bad, but our newspapers are by and large pretty decent (despite the column being discussed here), as are programs such as npr. you may disagree, but i think halbhalb is correct in his assessment that this kind of comment would have been reported by some major news outlet if it had in fact occurred.</p>
<p>Believe me, my friend has gone through great pains to try to convince himself that Israel is as innocent as it is portrayed. </p>
<p>I know my friend would be much better at making this point, but can any of you truthfully deny that Pro-Israel organizations, such as AIPAC, have extremely disproportionate control over Congress and the media. Presidents and congresspeople must convince AIPAC that they are fit, in order to gain a firm footing in Washington. Wolf Blitzer is a former member of AIPAC (I like Wolf by the way).</p>
<p>Even if these quotes are not entirely true (which has never been proven), can anyone really doubt that there is at least a shred of truth in them?</p>
<p>Brostrad, Israeli radio network Kol Yisrael confirmed it and the newspaper is Ha’aretz. </p>
<p>Look, I apologize for posting these comment before absolutly affirming that they were 100% proven, however there has been more evidence that these are true and real. I am just puzzled that Sharon has not denounced what he supposedly may or may not have said.</p>
<p>"using your logic, we might as well conclude that america in fact orchestrated 9/11. why won’t bush come out and deny these claims if they are in fact false? simply put, he has better things to do. "</p>
<p>Yes, but much attention has been given to this sentiment, and many political figures and media members have disproven such conspiracy theories. So, PLENTY of attention was given to it, just not by the President. However, these quotes directly correlate to one man, why not just say “I never said that”?</p>
<p>Is this discussion really happening without anyone addressing Mearsheimer and Walt?</p>
<p>shraf: thanks for your contribution to this discussion, which I would hardly describe as an argument.</p>
<p>bing: AIPAC has only as much power as congressmen give them. At the end of the day, they have no official power in US government. How much power would be “appropriate” for the pro-Israel lobby? How about for the pro-Palestinian lobby? I do not deny that the pro-Israel lobby is a major force in US politics (as are the AARP, NRA, etc…), but any claim that Israel “Owns The Congress” is downright silly.</p>