<p>This is an earnest inquiry coming from an international applicant. I really like how Columbia is located in one of the greatest cities in the world and at the same time provides a world-class education.. The thing is, people from my country (an East Asian country that is-) ask why I wouldn't shoot higher with an SAT score of 2390. I know asians are obsessed with name values, and when it comes to the ivy schools, you're not secure even with a 2400, but is there actually a thin line of distinction between the HYPS and Columbia? How is Columbia regarded in the American society? (I would like detailed if somewhat subjective/regional comments as well) Would people distinguish for say, a Harvard graduate from that of Columbia's? Also, would you guys say that at Columbia one is equally challenged in terms of Academics?? I understand there may be departmental differences but still I would appreciate general views as well! Those are lots of questions, thank you so much!</p>
<p>Scores are, at best, 20% of the picture. I knew many people with test scores in that neighborhood, having a 2390 doesn't put you in a tier "above" columbia students. It's the non-quantifiable factors which make the difference between the reputation of Columbia's students and those of (say) Stanford, and thus the difference in getting in.</p>
<p>So to answer your question, there is indeed a thin line of distinction. In short, Harvard is without a doubt the strongest education brand name in the world, and probably up there with Nike and Coca-Cola for overall brand name. The farther you get from cambridge, the more the harvard mystique grows. the same is much less true but still marginally true of yale, princeton, MIT and stanford, and probably not really true of any other institution (Relative to Columbia).</p>
<p>I would say the quality of education is not very different; having known dozens of harvard students, the guys at columbia probably work harder and have more challenging classes on average. Certainly there are hard classes at harvard, but the average student at Columbia is flogged through more of them in my opinion. Part of that is probably due to the core.</p>
<p>My two cents.</p>
<p>I concur with Denzera's view. Many professors I've talked to (at this school and others) have told me they find Columbia's student body at least as much, if not more engaged and interesting as those at HYP as well. I think one actually gains in "educational quality" at Columbia if measured in terms of teaching alone. </p>
<p>One thing Columbia does not necessarily do, however, is offer the greatest educational opportunities beyond the classroom. Funding for undergraduate research is limited, lab space is not the most advanced, and study abroad is more difficult than at HYPS. Those opportunities Columbia does offer it hardly goes out of its way to provide.</p>
<p>When you ask about Columbia's reputation, I am assuming that you mean its prestige relative to other institutions. Hands down, Harvard is the most prestigious school in the country, if not the world. I personally find it funny that the school gets a plug whenever you read an article about someone doing something, e.g., Joe Schmoe, a Harvard-trained dentist. Anyway, this is less so the case with Yale, Princeton and Stanford. Funny, a local politician is running for statewide office in NY and the commercial mentions that he is a Columbia PHD. Anyway, when it comes to prestigious schools in the US, there aren't many with the exception perhaps of these schools, that can be considered to be relatively more prestigious.<br>
As far as distiguishing between grads of these schools, there isn't much of a distinction between the success of grads from these schools or any other elite schools in the US. Outside of the US, I would be very surprised if educated people would not have heard of Columbia.</p>
<p>Columbia2007 - what do you mean by "study abroad is more difficult than at HYPS"?</p>
<p>Actually I don't know if it's necessarily easier at Harvard, Yale, or Stanford. It may actually be more difficult at Harvard from what I hear; Columbia at least has specific study abroad sites. Princeton makes any project outside of campus easier by shovelling money at you for international research of some kind. Part of the problem is that for many schools, and I know this is true at Columbia, study abroad isn't necessarily well-integrated into the home curriculum. At Columbia, for example, many don't get real grades on their transcript for study abroad if they don't go through a specific Columbia program- the ones in Berlin, Paris, Kyoto, and a couple other places (including the junior year at Oxford/Cambridge). So you want to go do study abroad in Malawi? Great, but it'll look like a semester of pass/fail grades on your final report. I guess this is great if you want to goof off abroad and not have it affect your GPA, but it's not so wonderful for grad schools. Even thornier is the problem of specific departments who won't accept the work you did abroad for credit. So, for example, if you need another few credits to fulfill your major requirements, it's difficult to convince dept. officials that what you did qualifies, unless you provide copious documentation to show that it meets Columbia "standards". The fact that many of Columbia's programs are integrated into local universities mean that their semester systems may wind up eating huge chunks of your summer or cutting out a few weeks of your spring semester, which makes finding summer jobs or other programs, or even reintegrating into Columbia's curriculum, difficult. Finally, Columbia doesn't provide much support while you're abroad or when you plan to return. In most cases you pay full tuition to Columbia even though your program might be cheaper. Plus, getting housing for the next year can be restricted, as some of the process involves being on campus.</p>
<p>It seems that schools like NYU, with many more study abroad sites directly integrated into the school curriculum, make it far easier for students to go abroad for a semester, and the volume of students doing this assures that those who go don't feel like odd ones out when away from campus. A friend of mine who went to Oxford for a year has been rather dismayed at how difficult it's been to reconnect with people, since they mainly stayed in New York and established closer ties to their other friends who remained at Columbia.</p>
<p>Sorry to get off the initial question; but regarding study abroad...I read that you have to go to Oxford for a year in order to get the credits acknowledged at Columbia. Princeton and Yale have the same requirement, but Princeton said something about making exceptions. </p>
<p>Has anyone ever heard of any exceptions made to this year requirement at Oxford? thanks</p>
<p>I have a number of friends who studied abroad at places like Prague, Paris, London and even the Yucatan in Mexico, and they all did so for a semester. Although I don't know, I would rather doubt that if your son has his heart set on Oxford, that they would force him to spend a year there.</p>
<p>So if I were to participate in a study abroad for which Columbia did not accept grades, and my transcript would just say pass or fail... how badly would it then affect my chances of getting into a good grad school?</p>
<p>I don't think it will impact your chances in any significant way. If you have a transcript that is stellar, a top grad program will not reject you for having a semester of Pass grades. On the other hand, if your transcript is filled with unremarkable grades, I don't see the semester of Pass grades helping you.</p>
<p>I may be wrong, but I believe when they say the grades don't count, they mean only that they don't factor them into your Columbia gpa. A grad school program would probably ask for the transcript of the foreign insitution at which you spent your year abroad. Depending where you study, those grades would not necessarily be P/NP.</p>
<p>Columbia's a little more difficult in terms of study abroad because of its core curriculum requirements. Add a science major, in particular, and it's extremely hard to pull it off. (Other places, science majors do it by saving their general ed requirements to do abroad, because it's too difficult to find comparable science sequences to the home institution.) Columbia also charges Columbia tuition and pockets the change, if you go somewhere cheaper overseas. And, as someone mentioned, you can lose your place in the queue for housing. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, students do go. I get the impression more do single semester than full year programs.</p>
<p>Since going overseas is cheaper than the columbia tuition... would they give you a certain stipend to cover expenses while living abroad?</p>
<p>I honestly do not see HYP kids as higher than Columbia students, but it's true that HYP is known even by cavemen and Columbia is not. If I were at Harvard, Yale, or Princeton, I'd be jealous of the Columbia kids. I'm very proud to go here-it was far and away my first choice. I turned down a higher-ranked school to come to Columbia, and I don't regret the decision at all. USNWR says the school I turned down is better than Columbia, but I just don't believe it, and that's all that matters. </p>
<p>Also, I think that it's hilarious people want you to shoot "higher" than Columbia because of your SAT score, as if there's a major difference in SAT averages between Columbia and Harvard. If you were applying to, say, Drexel with a 2390 then I'd definitely wonder why you weren't aiming higher (I'll add that there are even kids with perfect SAT scores at Drexel), but there isn't a huge gap between Columbia and Harvard. I know there are many people who turned down Harvard to attend Columbia, and I absolutely guarantee you there are kids at Harvard who wanted to go to Columbia and didn't get in. The admissions statistics are very similar.</p>
<p>Furthermore, your choice of major matters a lot and it's not something you can overlook. For example, people in your country might see UPenn as lower than Harvard (its state school-esque name certainly doesn't help matters) but you're a lot better off at Penn for undergraduate business than you are at Harvard or Columbia. Why? Penn HAS undergrad business, and the other two don't. The overall school's ranking is vague and won't tell you that much. Look into specific departments. </p>
<p>I get the sense that as Penn moves down the USNWR rankings (I think it dropped 3 this year), Columbia's going to move up, if that makes you feel any better. Not that anyone at this school is saying "God, I wish we were 4th instead of 9th!" Perhaps in the future it will gain more of that Coca-Cola brand name as Denzera mentioned. USNWR has a weird ranking system, but it influences a lot of people's opinions on how "good" a school is. Really, the vast majority of America values a solid Flagship State School education. Not everyone cares to even apply to an Ivy League school, even if they're qualified. </p>
<p>Remember, statistics say you're probably not getting in to Columbia OR Harvard anyway! Very few people have the luxury of a decision between the two. </p>
<p>Bottom line--in the US, if you tell an educated person that you went to Columbia and they pity you for not having attended a "better" school, that person is known as a total jerk.</p>
<p>What does it matter how the school is viewed, so long as you are getting the best education you can in the place you like the most. Harvard and Columbia, and for that matter Princeton, Yale, Stanford, MIT, UPenn, and any other school in the country are often drastically different. Choose a school based on where you want to be, what courses and majors they offer, and how you like the feel of the school. When you really look at them, rankings are silly and subjective, and the top 20 or even 50 schools will probably all give you an incredibly good education. Whether people you know think you made the right choice or not should make no difference, as long as you are happy and comfortable where you end up.</p>
<p>What does it matter? Well, to be brief,</p>
<p>1) Recruiting & Job Opportunities coming out of college - both in variety of work, and in placement rate (sure, everyone gets a job, but many people at harvard could get a choice of a dozen in their target industry)
2) Size and usefulness of alumni network. It does make a difference down the road, and i've seen it in action already.
3) Size of endowment = all the little extra goodies, discounts, trips, and perks that come with your tuition. I bet UT Austin has the comfiest library and lounge furniture that money can buy.
4) The kind of students that you meet and their personality fit with yours, as well as the connections you may make for later in your career, will vary considerably as well.</p>
<p>It doesn't make a world of difference - I wouldn't have gone to Harvard even if I did get in, it was too close to home - but it's not nothing, either.</p>
<p>Also, the Penn undergrads who "major in business" have no real advantage over Columbia Econ-Math majors or Financial Eng. majors or the like. Wharton is impressive if you want to go to wall street, but the real difference-maker is the B-school and the MBA candidates there.</p>
<p>As an aside re: UT-Austin, although it has one of the largest endowments in the country, as a state university, it really can't waste a cent on the "comfiest library and lounge furniture that money can buy". It has, however, allowed UT to build one of the largest university library collections in North America, and one of the most respected in the world with Ransom Humanities Research Center.</p>
<p>"There's a good deal of awe at the speed at which the Ransom has been able to build such extensive collections by the dint of a lot of energy and a good deal of money," said Jean Ashton, director of the rare books and manuscript library at Columbia University. "We admire it and are more than a little bit jealous."</p>
<p>"The Ransoms awesome holdings, which for some time have exerted something like a gravitational pull on other contemporary authors, make it more likely that in the future other writers will want to be part of this amazing collection. ...The Ransom Center, which was founded in 1957, has pockets as deep as Texas is big, with much of it coming from oil.... It has paid off. Not only does the Ransom possess treasures like a Gutenberg Bible and the first photograph, it competes in countless other fields, driving up prices for all....And its not just literary properties that make the Ransom such a juggernaut: In 2003 the center paid $5 million for the Watergate papers of Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein. Theres no ignoring the Ransoms influence on the market. </p>
<p>see posting below</p>
<p>see below ---</p>
<p>I am so glad you posted JWT!</p>
<p>I have used the Ransom and could not have put it better. I journeyed to UT to take a look at the law school and look at J.D. Salinger's letters at the Ransom. </p>
<p>First, the law school library may fudge a slight bit on its volume by counting pamphlets but it is still an amazing place. The antiques found there were donated and make it very, very appealing. Of course, NY has to be a bit in awe of the space UT must have had at one time though it is gobbling up the open space. Thought most libraries were equalized by electronic resources, but size still matters and rare books/maps make an ordinary library an elite library. UT has an amazing map library I learned while there. I think rare books still matter (and Harvard seemed to have that in spades). THey new moot court room built was also a donation from an alum. It was amazing.</p>
<p>But nothing prepared me for the Ransom. It's part musuem and part library. I did not notice furnishings being particularly plush in fact there are well worn and unremarkable but I was blown away by quality of resources. </p>
<p>I have made an effort to study University endowments in an attempt to understand what they mean to my academic focus. UT's endowment may have at one time been closer to Harvard's before Harvard decided to move it up -- UT has many, many campuses and students. I had the figures at one time and I think this is important in making a decision. The important point in comparing endowments is understanding the application per student and Harvard has significantly fewer students. If I'm not mistaken UT has more undergrads than all of Harvard.</p>
<p>But this is a two part endeavor for most of us -- undergraduate school and graduate school. </p>
<p>As an aside in my senior class no one chose Columbia over Harvard though there were some cross over admissions. I don't know if they are being polite to me, but some of my classmates have said they wish they had chosen Columbia for undergrad and gone to Harvard for grad.... the reasons are a completely different post!</p>
<p>Thanks JWT -- that really jumped out at me as well.</p>
<p>Those things that make a prestigious university such as Harvard, Yale, Standford and Princeton are not always DIRECTLY consistent with those things that create a good undergraduate experience. For most of us a Columbia undergraduate education is just the first leg of our educational journey and we enter this institution with that understanding. For your undergraduate experience this is what Columbia has to offer in my opinion.</p>
<p>Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford are recognized worldwide as producers of global, world class research. Columbia is as well. However, they have in fact promoted their research better and have at times had better research departments -- I will not get into a shouting match on this. THe point is these research programs attract the brightest graduate students which in turn perpetuate the valuable and significant research which makes them world class. Success breeds success. The intangible, however, is that this graduate world is not irrelevant to the undergraduate. </p>
<p>There are as a direct result of the graduate research programs unparalleled resources like labs and libraries. However, there is the indirect consequence though certainly an acknowledged and intended consequence and that is the intellectual passion and curiosity stirred in the students by the graduate departments. </p>
<p>And if you’ve read this far thank you because I did spend some time thinking about this very important question. </p>
<p>Columbia has perhaps done the best job in the Ivy League of being certain students are instructed by professors – who are themselves impassioned – my favorite – Jeffry Sachs. And chances are the student sitting next to me has the same capacity for inspiration and is motivated to take some action as well. Full professors typically do not count chief amongst their duties teaching freshmen. Producing high-quality research and running graduate seminars is more to their liking generally but here it is required.</p>
<p>Expanding a world-class university is immensely and expandingly expensive. And I think this is an excellent article on Stanford’s constant responsibility to grow its endowment. <a href="http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2001/sepoct/upfront/presidents.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2001/sepoct/upfront/presidents.html</a></p>
<p>It is immensely important to look at endowments but that information is meaningless if you do not also examine the per student allocation.</p>
<p>Funding for purposes of “excellence” has been made possible by the culture of philanthropy that Americans possess. World-class universities create worldwide benefit. They create much of the research that drives the modern economies. They are uncompromisingly elitist and their endowments support but a few supremely talented individuals. </p>
<p>If you view your education as a two part process: one to gain a broad perspective of the world and your role in it, and secondly, on the second leg of your journey, graduate school to create your place in the modern world I can think of no better place than Columbia.</p>
<p>It has the potential – if you take it – to offer a completely different set of opportunities than HYPS and that is to work with the best and the brightest in your field in New York.</p>
<p>And those students who are afraid to venture out and take what’s out there … who reside in the Morningside bubble might as well be at HYPS. If you choose Columbia for undergrad – you will have the opportunity to learn more about yourself and how you and your special skillset fits into the modern world with a good understanding of the ancient world (courtesy of the core) than you could have at HYPS.</p>
<p>Thanks if you read all of this. I did spend some time thinking about it and preparing it. I think this is a very important question and perhaps one of the most central issues that those who have several options can have.</p>
<p>And with all the condescending posting regarding ‘if you get in’ (which inflates the ego of the posters I believe and serves no valid purpose other than to put down ambitious high school students) there is a certain subset that will get in to several top tier universities. Columbia chose me … and I chose Columbia. It has been a good match.</p>