Would they have plenty of offerings well-beyond college sophomore-level math or 3-4th year foreign language?
Many students at my public magnet were advanced enough that they were taking advanced undergrad or even lower-level graduate courses at Columbia or strong areas of NYU such as their Courant Institute where their math department is based.
My high school counts computer science as a science credit.
Community colleges would not offer upper division courses. But your high school, an elite magnet school, is unusual in having significant numbers of students who are that advanced in math. In a more typical high school, the good-at-math students complete calculus in 12th grade, and occasional top-end students in math complete calculus in 11th grade and may look for more college-sophomore-level math at local colleges.
Foreign language skill is potentially more advanced to the point that some students may complete high school year 4 or AP level early in high school, or know the language as heritage users beyond high school year 4 or AP level (though some heritage speakers have weak reading and writing skills; high schools and colleges sometimes offer courses for heritage speakers that focus on reading and writing).
For what it is worth, in California, computer science courses are counted as academic electives, rather than core math, science, or foreign language courses, for the purpose of fulfilling requirements for admission to the state universities.
My son’s NYS public high school has a Technology Department which offers a couple of CS and a couple of engineering courses. They’re electives, as is AP Stats, which despite being part of the Math Department, isn’t a core math course and I don’t think it’s what colleges are talking about when they want to see 3 or 4 years of math. I assume they mean the algebra, geometry, trig, precalc, calf series. You know, math-y math.
I’m just curious about the 4 year CS program. At my son’s school, they just offer Honors CS, which is what people who know little or no programming take, and then AP CS. Where does the extra 2 years fit in?
I would be very, very careful when getting advice from your son’s GC. Honestly, I think it’s GC malpractice not to make it very, very clear to all the students, starting when they picked freshman classes, that CS doesn’t count as a foreign language anywhere except the weirdo mind of the Texas legislature and that anyone possibly contemplating college at something other than a Texas public university, needs an actual foreign language. Who knows where else they may mislead you?
He could take it online even if it doesn’t count in GPA, since your HS will be counting the 4 years of CS. You’ll report the language study on common app and on applications since it’s for college applications.
He could also take 2 semesters from a community college, that would count as reaching level 3, but be aware the pace in college foreign language classes is brutal.
Note that most colleges have a foreign language requirement for graduation so he’ll need to learn a foreign language (not CS).
A CS language isn’t a foreign language: it does not reflect a people, a way of life, and a way of thinking, it doesn’t provide insight into English or another culture. Cs is a very important field but in most school districts it’s considered a science (definitely uses logic and some math reasoning).
The easiest foreign language for a native English speaker is Italian, then French (if he intends on completing through level 2 in hs plus one semester in college) or Spanish (if he only intends on taking it to level 2, then switch in college - elementary Spanish is quite easy, intermediate Spanish becomes quite hard due to multiple conjunctives.) Portuguese is another relatively easy language to consider.
I am going to dissent a little here. Before that, though, let me say that I am a huge fan of learning foreign languages. I am reasonably fluent in a couple of them, and can read several others. That’s been an important part of my life. I think it has moral and educational value, and I fully support curriculums that require foreign language study, or college admission requirements.
That said . . .
– At most American high schools, foreign language teaching is abysmal. Unless your high school is special, two years of study of any language will be next to useless for anything other than checking an admissions box. Unless your child intends to continue foreign language study in college – which may be tough in most engineering programs, if that’s what he does – he will get negligible moral or educational benefit out of two years of introductory language study in high school.
– Giving up the last two years of a four-year computer science sequence is giving up an opportunity to acquire real depth in a subject matter the student cares about. And also, I suspect, to associate with other successful, ambitious, self-challenging students in class on a daily basis. (Not that such students aren’t found in introductory language courses – they are – but the concentration won’t be anywhere near what it is in advanced CS courses.) Those are real costs.
– If class rank matters (and it certainly does, for UT/TAMU and for merit competitions), then you may want to check whether the weighting on advanced CS classes vs. intro foreign language matters.
– Many, many colleges recommend two or three years of foreign language study. They are right to do that. But in years of observation on CC, I have often seen kids with great academic credentials but not the recommended language study get accepted at colleges that rattle their sabers the most about language study. And, you know what?, the colleges are right to do that, too. They are not turning away the best candidates on rigid grounds. (The same would not be true, by the way, of the University of California system.) They accept candidates whose curricular choices show thought, seriousness, ambition, and willingness to challenge oneself.
– I firmly believe that no one should do anything significant only because it improves his or her chances to get into a selective college. (Merit aid is another matter.) That’s too risky. What kids should do are things that make them better, smarter, more engaged people. Things that are good for them, and that will give them clear benefits no matter where they go to college. Those things have permanent, noncontingent value, and – bonus! – I think they make students the most attractive candidates possible to selective colleges, too, even if they haven’t exactly checked all the boxes.
For those reasons, I think staying with the CS program makes a lot more sense. It isn’t even really a close call.
^ i think staying with the cs program AND taking a foreign language (online or cc) would be the best option.
Seems parent is into the cs program but the kid isn’t. On that basis I’d drop it but if that’s not correct then depth in a good cs program could be a nice leg up.
My 1st choice is that my son would remain in the CS program and take the foreign lang courses on line. I have an affinity for CS from the years I spent in the tech field. I feel that this is an invaluable opportunity that he just can’t pass up! I also agree with @JHS . My son is working on projects & learning cool stuff in a very focused and supported environment with a small number of likeminded students and professors from local colleges. Both his dad (military) and I (kick a$$ librarian) are definitely “You finish what you start” kind of people so we will work it out for him to stay.
My son likes CS (It is his 2nd choice major) but according to him, if he had to choose between orchestra where he has alot of friends to staying in CS…he chooses orchestra. I think this is also due to the fact that he deals with the stress of managing his chronic illness daily/sometimes hourly and orchestra is relaxing for him. I will leave his sched as is & add the online course after he takes the SAT in Oct which will give him time over the holidays to complete.
@millie210 The CS Endorsement program that he is in is very unique and is the 1st of its kind in TX. The kids take the following: CS Principles PreAP, CS 1 PreAP, CS 2 AP, CS 3 AP in addition to 4x4 curriculum.
Based on the course titles, the program covers AP CS principles in one year, but then takes three years to cover AP CS A, which is normally only a semester-long course or part of a semester-long course in college. Seems like your “CS or foreign language” scheduling problem is at least partially caused by the very slow pace of this high school CS track.
AP CS principles is a useful to know for all students, although one should not expect to receive subject credit for it in college. AP CS A may get subject credit for CS majors at some colleges, but non-computer engineering majors usually have to take a different computing for engineering course using MATLAB.
I have to agree with @ucbalumnus that is slow, at my boys TX school they they start with AP Comp Sci in 9th grade, Comp Sci Advanced 10th grade, Comp Sci Independent Study I 11th grade, Comp Sci Independent Studey II in 12th. AP Comp Sci Principles can be taken anytime after 9th grade.
Not sure I understand the importance of “slow” or the high school pgm comparisons? How does that help with the dilemma? I mean if you look at the pace of how the typical high school core:foreign language, science, math, history, and english…these classes are all slowly drawn out compared to their intro college course counterparts. What makes his pgm unique is that these classes are not electives. In TX these CS classes count as a math, science, or foreign lang credit. TX is the only state that has this distinction. Not to mention the TX HS Endorsements.
Also, the purpose of my posting this concern was not to compare h.s. comp sci programs or get college credit for CS…I just needed guidance on the foreign lang component in competitive college admissions/merit aid.
In a typical high school, AP CS principles would be a year course, while AP CS A would be another year course, for a total of two years instead of four. Your high school apparently teaches AP CS A slowly, so that it takes up more schedule space and crowds out other courses, like actual foreign language.
@ucbalumnus Thx for explaining. The pgm is new, I know that they are working with UTSA’s cyber security/cs dept and the Air Force also. But his gc hasn’t been forthcoming with the possible issues with private/OOS admissions & the foreign lang issue. At least it is still early and we have time to fill the foreign lang gap.
Part of the issue may be that the four years of CS may not be seen as particularly rigorous by colleges, since it covers what other high schools would cover in two years of CS. In that context, it may look worse to have an absence of foreign language for this particular four year CS course sequence (as opposed to one that goes into content more advanced than AP CS A).
If your plan is online foreign language, I would talk to people who have taken those specific courses. Taking foreign language not in person can be tough even for many kids who do well in all other subjects. I’ve heard that some of our HS students had trouble with online Spanish classes through our community college.
Also stick with an “easy” language. (That is, not Mandarin, which is an online GPA killer here.)
An aside: Do they take the AP CS test as seniors? I think there might be advantages to taking it at least as juniors. I agree that colleges may not see a sequence with these course names as rigorous.
If the CS program is interested in looking at other curricula plans, they might look at this http://www.sbhscs.org/programs/course-descriptions/ which includes electives that count at art, English, and math (Precalculus with Python) in addition to general electives. “Exploring Computer Science” is somewhat similar to AP CS Principles; I expect they will switch at some point.
Another aside: The UC system counts “Discrete Math” or “Discrete Structures” through community colleges as math courses, not as general electives, even if they are offered through the CS department.
@ucbalumnus Wouldn’t the colleges need the course syllabi or descriptions to make the determination that you did? Based on what I know of the program and their relationships with the local colleges, military and corporations, I think there is more to the program than it just being the typical two hs classes stretched out. In my mind there is no question to the value of this program.
Regarding foreign lang., from someone who uses Spanish daily, I believe my son needs to know how to communicate with those he works and lives with. I took a bunch of classes in hs and college, but learned to effectively communicate through real life personal & professional experiences/practice. IMHO, The hs classes are not effective, but I agree that for college application purposes, the box must be checked to be competitive.
Also, I had to add that through our college visits, talking with admission counselors, and talking with tech professionals, we have only heard overwhelmingly positive feedback about our son’s participation in the program.
College admissions readers do not have the time to dig too deeply into each applicant’s high school’s unusual courses. Most will probably see “four years to cover the two AP CS courses/tests” when they see the courses listed on his record. If there is additional content that adds value to those courses, that may not be apparent to a college admissions reader who has 10 minutes or less to do the initial reading of the application.
@Ynotgo. They take the AP exam as Juniors. Thank you for the link, I will share with his gc. Good point regarding the difficulty of online foreign lang classes. Span 1 is easy so could be online. Span 2 he can take in person in summer school. I will be meeting with his gc next month so will definitely ask.
@ucbalumnus I understand the point about difficulty, but not sure if it matters since the CS courses are all honors/ap, they still help his gpa & rank. Plus by taking Span 1 & 2 & doing well will also help his gpa & rank. Am I missing something?