comparing Classics departments

College Search & Selection
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<p>I want to major in Classics, and I want to go to a college with an excellent Classics department. I'm looking at Amherst, Williams, University of Chicago, and Princeton. I've tried looking at the Classics department websites for each of the schools, but nothing I found was particularly informative. Does anyone have perspectives on the Classics programs at any of these schools (or suggestions for other schools with good Classics departments)? I'm having a really hard time comparing them.</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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<p>The classics department at Amherst is fairly small, and the number of offerings available is thus limited. The program at Williams is much larger, and it should provide a firm foundation for future study in classics. Amherst does have the benefit of consortium access to U Mass-Amherst, however.</p>

<p>The classics departments at Chicago and Princeton are fairly similar. Both are somewhat small, close-knit departments with an intense focus on language and literature – unfortunately to the detriment of virtually everything else. Chicago has a huge advantage over Princeton in that it has virtually unparalleled offerings in other areas of the ancient world, whereas Princeton’s offerings are decidedly more limited.</p>

<p>In terms of the “best” classics programs, I would place them into separate tiers as follows: </p>

<p>LACs
Barnard (if female)
Bryn Mawr (if female)
Haverford
Oberlin
Reed
Wellesley (if female)</p>

<p>Carleton
Colgate
Davidson
Franklin & Marshall
Hamilton
Kenyon
Middlebury
Swarthmore
Vassar
Wesleyan</p>

<p>Private Universities
Brown
Columbia
Cornell
Duke
Harvard
Penn
Stanford
Yale</p>

<p>Boston U
Dartmouth
Emory
Johns Hopkins
NYU
Tufts
USC
Vanderbilt
WUStL</p>

<p>Public Universities
Berkeley
Michigan
UCLA
UNC Chapel Hill
UT Austin</p>

<p>Arizona
Cincinnati
Florida State
Ohio State
Penn State
Wisconsin
UVA</p>

<p>Illinois
Iowa
Kansas
Minnesota
UCSB
UGA
Washington</p>

<p>In terms of classics firepower, two sets of colleges stand out – Duke & UNC and Penn & Bryn Mawr (and Haverford). Both consortiums consist of two top 10 programs and provide offerings unmatched by any other single university.</p>

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<p>Here’s a different view. Individual opinions such as Warbler’s will vary but here are the quality rankings from the National Research Council. The National Research Council is generally considered the gold standard for these kinds of departmental rankings though it too has its critics. Many of the institutions listed by Warblersrule are also listed here, though many others are nowhere to be seen. The top ten ranking shown below reflects both statistical analyses and reputational surveys among those in the field. If you average the two (R and S results) you get the following ranking of programs. </p>

<p>CLASSICS</p>

<p>1—Stanford
2—Harvard
3—Columbia
4—Princeton
5—Duke
6—Penn
7—Berkeley
8—Berkeley (different department)
9—Columbia (different department)
10–U. of Michigan</p>

<p>[2010</a> Classics Rankings — PhDs.org Graduate School Guide](<a href=“http://graduate-school.phds.org/rankings/classics]2010”>http://graduate-school.phds.org/rankings/classics)</p>

<p>You can research other fields at the following site which makes the NRC data more accessible.</p>

<p>[Find</a> the Graduate School That’s Right for You — PhDs.org Graduate School Guide](<a href=“http://graduate-school.phds.org/]Find”>http://graduate-school.phds.org/) </p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/11257453-post1.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/11257453-post1.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>

Addressing the second point, the NRC rankings only measure institutions with a PhD program. Many colleges with extremely good classics programs - such as all LACs except Bryn Mawr and some universities with terminal MA programs like Arizona and Vanderbilt - are therefore not accounted for. </p>

<p>Addressing the first point, yes, I would say the NRC rankings definitely have their fair share of critics, particularly the most recent set of rankings. The vast majority of the factors have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with undergraduate quality – time to degree, percent female students, percent minority students, percent minority faculty, graduate student work space, average number of PhDs, percent funded, etc. are thoroughly irrelevant to undergraduates. One could argue that top programs typically score better in such things, which is true, but it is nevertheless only an indirect measurement at best.</p>

<p>Of the ~20 factors used in the R ranking, only around 4 (!) are legitimately linked to undergraduate academic/faculty quality. I have addressed this more thoroughly elsewhere:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/12653712-post69.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/12653712-post69.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>One also runs into the pesky problem of multiple departments. Penn, for example, has three different and wholly independent PhD programs - classics, ancient history, and archaeology. At Stanford, all of their faculty and programs are combined into one department. Since many of the NRC factors rely on totals, it helps to have a single department.</p>

<p>Finally, one must factor in specializations. Harvard is superb for philology, for example, but it absolutely sucks for classical archaeology and is easily outflanked by at least a dozen other schools. A truly great classics program, in my opinion, needs to be completely well-rounded.</p>

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<p>

<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/12068538-post16.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/12068538-post16.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>In the end, what you will want is superior reading knowledge of the classical languages. At liberal arts colleges, you have the absolute attention of faculty and staff, and you have the benefit of small course sections from the get-go. You will learn to read, and you will learn to read well.</p>

<p>warbler’s criticism of LACs is legitimate, however. Usually, courses go through four year repetition cycles, and one can always propose independent study (i.e., 1-on-1) with a faculty member… but, god forbid a faculty member departs for good or goes on sabbatical. You’ll be stuck with hit-or-miss visiting assistant professors, or new hires may insist on breaking that cycle of repetition for courses. God forbid you don’t like a single faculty member in your department.</p>

<p>I talk about the importance of good teachers because you’re going to need mentors who are passionate about what they teach, make the material come alive, and articulate the significance of what you read. They are responsible for balancing reading, writing, and research in courses. An incompetent or indifferent professor will make you cry.</p>

<p>If you want true diversity in the classics–archaeology, art history, history, philosophy, etc.–go to a research university. You may give up the intimacy you have in the classroom and during office hours, and you may be able to get by without perfecting your reading ability, but what you have in exchange are a lively and active classics community, breadth and depth in course selection, and an army of superstar professors who will carry you and your research far.</p>

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<p>Classics majors may be giving up intimacy while in the student union, walking across campus, or sitting in general ed courses at a research university but not while in the Classics classroom or during office hours. Even at the largest US universities Classics is a pretty small major with only a handful of students enrolled in each Classics course. You won’t find any huge Greek or Latin composition courses with hundreds of students enrolled. Nor will there very often be long lines out the door at Classics profs’ office hours.</p>

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<p>Toronto has a great program that might be off the radar of U.S. lists</p>

<p>[Department</a> of Classics](<a href=“http://classics.chass.utoronto.ca/]Department”>http://classics.chass.utoronto.ca/)</p>

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<p>Holy Cross has a very good Classics Department and offers some merit aid.</p>

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<p>I want to put in a plug for Bryn Mawr/Haverford/Penn. My D1 is a rising sophomore at Haverford and may become a classics major. She did a lot of Latin and Greek in junior high and her first couple of years in HS, but then her interests turned to modern languages and political science. But she’s got the classics bug again and will resume both Latin and Greek in the fall. The classics faculty at Haverford are excellent, and very attentive and accessible. The Haverford and Bryn Mawr classics programs operate in tandem; cross-registration at the other campus is unlimited and completely seamless with a unified on-line class registration system, a free shuttle connects the two campuses (only 1.5 miles apart), and class schedules are staggered with classes at one school starting on the hour and at the other school on the half-hour, allowing plenty of time to change campuses. That immediately increases the curricular offerings available at either school beyond the level that schools of comparable size can provide. As warblersrule86 indicates, both are among the strongest LACs in this field; together they’re pretty much unbeatable. Also, Bryn Mawr is one of the few LACs with a well-developed Classical and Near Eastern Archeology program, open, of course, to students at both Haverford and Bryn Mawr.</p>

<p>And if that’s not enough, students at either school can take classes at Penn, about 20 minutes away by train, or at Swarthmore, about 25 minutes by shuttle, making for a truly extraordinary set of highest-quality curricular offerings in an intimate LAC setting.</p>

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<p>The names of the colleges on this thread are quite impressive and expensive. In the end however, where you do your undergraduate work is not that important. There are many cheaper options out there. This years Lionel Pearson fellowship, the top award for a graduating senior classics major in north america went to a graduate of The College of Charleston(SC). If you don’t believe me, go to the web site of the graduate programs you are interested in and check the bios of the current PhD candidates, you’ll see they come from all manner of lower tier undergrad programs even some state schools!</p>

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<p>To TurtlePhobic’s point, check out the Classics department at the University of Cincinnati.</p>

<p>[Classics</a> | McMicken College](<a href=“http://classics.uc.edu/]Classics”>http://classics.uc.edu/)</p>

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<p>

I am not sure whether you are referring to the quality of the department or the origins of its graduate students. If the former, note that I included Cincinnati in my list above; it is unusually strong in the subject. If the latter, note that top undergrad programs are disproportionately represented, with some institutions even sending two or more students (Brandeis, Brown, BU, Cambridge, Dartmouth, Duke, Emory, Grinnell, Indiana U, Kenyon, Leuven, Michigan, NYU, Penn, Penn State, Toronto, UCLA, UF, UNC, UT Austin, UVA, Wisconsin, etc.). </p>

<p>Additionally, it is worth noting that
[ul][<em>]Many of those who graduated from weaker departments (e.g. Montana, UNCG, Wheaton, and Concordia) strengthened their background with post-bac programs or feeder MAs (e.g. Oregon, Minnesota, Arizona, and Tufts).
[</em>]Some of the undergraduate programs that seem weak based on the university’s reputation, like those at Albany, are actually world-renowned.[/ul]</p>

<p>In any case, Cincinnati is not even all that strong relative to the actual top programs, except in prehistoric archaeology. Check out the most recent degrees of those in classics at Penn:
[ul][<em>]Strong programs - Bard, Boston College, Bryn Mawr, Cambridge (2), Columbia, KCL, Oxford, Rutgers, Smith, St. Andrews, UT Austin (2), Vassar (Penn Post-Bac), Washington, Wesleyan, WUStL, Yale
[</em>]Less strong programs - Calvin (Penn Post-Bac), Grand Valley State, Rhodes, Willamette (Penn Post-Bac)[/ul]
Top schools are disproportionately represented, and half of those from weaker programs did a post-bac program at Penn. Moreover, none of the programs are extremely weak; some of them like Willamette and Rhodes are quite good, just not elite.</p>

<p>Let’s also check out the most recent degrees of those in AAMW at Penn, where things are even more unbalanced:
[ul][<em>]Strong programs - Arizona, Barnard, Baylor, Carleton, Dartmouth (UNC Post-Bac), Genova, Haverford, Indiana, La Sapienza, Leiden, Northwestern, Oxford (2), Princeton, Tel Aviv (2), Toronto, Vienna, Yale
[</em>]Less strong programs - None [/ul]</p>

<p>Or the most recent degrees of those in classics at Brown:
[ul][<em>]Strong programs - Baylor, Bowdoin, Cornell, Fordham, Georgetown, Grinnell, Harvard (2), Kansas (2), McMaster, Michigan (2), Minnesota, Reed, St. Andrews, UCLA, UF, UT Austin, UVA, Washington (2), William & Mary, Williams
[</em>] Less strong programs - Ohio Wesleyan (studied at ASCSA), NIU, Roger Williams, Wabash (valedictorian)[/ul]</p>

<p>Or the most recent degrees of those in archaeology at Brown:
[ul][<em>]Strong programs - Alberta, Arizona, Berkeley, Brandeis, Bilkent, Columbia, Dartmouth, Leuven, Michigan, Oxford, Penn, St. Andrews, Tufts, UT Austin, UCL (2), Wisconsin
[</em>] Less strong programs - DePauw[/ul]
You get the picture. </p>

<p>Is it impossible for people from weaker programs to get into top classics programs? No, of course not - especially if they do a master’s or post-bac afterwards. Nevertheless, classics is an extremely tight-knit and prestige-oriented field dominated by a few strong programs; students at, say, Penn or Stanford have far more resources at their disposal than those at U Arkansas, and the letters of recommendation from those professors also carry considerably more weight.</p>

<p>Some of the top programs admit 1 student out of every 30 (Brown), 40 (Penn), or even 50 (Berkeley). If you have the option of choosing between a top undergrad program and a weak one, do you really want to gamble? </p>

<p>Sure, some departments like Charleston luck out and send a student to a top program every now and again. If you want a strong record of placement, however, with students being routinely sent to the best classics programs, there are VERY few options available. You’ll notice even in this tiny sample that several schools keep popping up - Michigan, Oxford, UT Austin, etc.</p>

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<p>I’m not in the Classics business, but it seems to me that direct admits from undergrad programs are no longer the norm, if indeed it ever was.</p>

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<p>As a Greek and Latin teacher at a prep school that feeds the colleges on this list, I am often asked about college classics programs. This thread is extremely helpful! Thank you! BTW my son is at Haverford, though NOT interested in the classics. :)</p>

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<p>I study classics at Penn, and the faculty here are phenomenal.</p>

<p>I recommend that anyone intending to major in classics who didn’t do any Greek before college try to enroll in an intensive summer Greek course before their first semester. This will give you the chance to learn the basics of Greek without a lot of distractions, and it will let you begin intermediate Greek in the fall. This will really open up your class selection later on.</p>

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