Comparing LACs to University prestige

College Search & Selection
21

<p>“However, it may be less of a factor for students who do expect to go to graduate or professional school (typically at a large university), where there will be plenty of exposure to advanced topics and research”</p>

<p>It can be a factor for anyone who develops an interest in a particular, “non-vanilla” area in the last two years of undergrad. Whether that be learining a particular non-mainstream language, or pursuing an interest in a particular sub-area of a field for which a fledgling affinity has developed along the way. One might want to pursue upper level studies in a subarea whether or not you want to go to grad school in that or any other subject. And it would be nice if, when such emerging interest develops, it can be pursued. </p>

<p>Unfortunately my D1 found this was not possible at her large LAC, in the particular subarea she developed an interest in studying. She had no intention of going to grad school in that area, she had become interested in the subject and nobody there taught it. Though their faculty was larger in the area than most other LACs, its coverage of the discipline was nevertheless far limited compared to a major research university where she could have studied it.</p>

<p>Re: athletics, I imagine there are more opportunities, more teams, more intramural sports , more fun athletics department offerings, more/bigger deal spectator sports, more of everything basically,at the universities, on average. Worse players can play varsity, in the sports the LAcs do offer, that’s it.</p>

22

<p>Monydad,
I think you make a good point, but size of undergraduate population alone dictates much of the difference in breadth of courses offered. Pointing out such differences make no allowance for quality of offering and certainly not for quality of student body with whom one shares these classroom experiences, eg, U Mass might have a broader slate of academic majors/classes vs Dartmouth, but I doubt many (anyone?) would claim that U Mass is a superior place for undergraduate study.</p>

<p>For those who might consider the quality of one’s student peers as a legitimate element in measuring a college’s prestige, one rough estimate of selectivity is SAT scores and ACT scores. Here is how the National Universities and LACs compare (state Us shown in CAPS):</p>

<p>THE 2200+ CLUB </p>

<p>Avg SAT , National University …… ……………………… …… LAC , Avg SAT</p>

<p>2245 , Caltech …… in same range as …… Harvey Mudd , 2215
2235 , Yale …… in same range as …… Pomona , 2200
2225 , Harvard …… in same range as ……<br>
2220 , Princeton …… in same range as …… </p>

<p>THE 2100-2195 CLUB </p>

<p>Avg SAT , National University …… ……………………… …… LAC , Avg SAT</p>

<p>2185 , Columbia …… in same range as …… Swarthmore , 2145
2175 , MIT …… in same range as …… Amherst , 2130
2165 , Dartmouth …… in same range as …… Bowdoin , 2110
2155 , Northwestern …… in same range as …… Claremont McK , 2110
2150 , Stanford …… in same range as …… Carleton , 2100
2150 , Duke …… in same range as …… Vassar , 2100
2145 , Brown …… in same range as ……<br>
2140 , U Penn …… in same range as ……<br>
2135 , Tufts …… in same range as ……<br>
2120 , Johns Hopkins …… in same range as ……<br>
2120 , Rice …… in same range as ……<br>
2105 , Vanderbilt …… in same range as ……<br>
2100 , Emory …… in same range as …… </p>

<p>THE 2000-2095 CLUB </p>

<p>Avg SAT , National University …… ……………………… …… LAC , Avg SAT</p>

<p>2095 , Notre Dame …… in same range as …… Haverford , 2095
2060 , Carnegie Mellon …… in same range as …… W&L , 2095
2055 , USC …… in same range as …… Wesleyan , 2080
2055 , Brandeis …… in same range as …… Oberlin , 2075
2015 , NYU …… in same range as …… Middlebury , 2065
2015 , Tulane …… in same range as …… Wellesley , 2065
2010 , WILLIAM & MARY …… in same range as …… Davidson , 2045
2005 , Boston College …… in same range as …… Barnard , 2045
2000 , UC BERKELEY …… in same range as …… Scripps , 2040
…… in same range as …… Macalester , 2040
…… in same range as …… Colby , 2025
…… in same range as …… Bates , 2020
…… in same range as …… Kenyon , 2010
…… in same range as …… Whitman , 2000</p>

<p>THE 1900-1995 CLUB </p>

<p>Avg SAT , National University …… ……………………… …… LAC , Avg SAT</p>

<p>1995 , U VIRGINIA …… in same range as …… Mt. Holyoke , 1980
1970 , U MICHIGAN …… in same range as …… Colorado College , 1975
1970 , GEORGIA TECH …… in same range as …… Bryn Mawr , 1970
1970 , U Rochester …… in same range as …… Bucknell , 1965
1965 , Rensselaer …… in same range as …… Trinity , 1955
1940 , U N CAROLINA …… in same range as …… Occidental , 1930
1940 , Case Western …… in same range as …… Smith , 1925
1930 , UCLA …… in same range as …… Lafayette , 1915
1925 , George Washington …… in same range as …… U Richmond , 1905
1910 , U Miami …… in same range as …… Furman , 1905
1905 , Boston University …… in same range as ……<br>
1900 , U WISCONSIN …… in same range as …… </p>

<p>THE 1800-1895 CLUB </p>

<p>Avg SAT , National University …… ……………………… …… LAC , Avg SAT</p>

<p>1880 , Worcester …… in same range as …… US Military Acad , 1850
1870 , UC SAN DIEGO …… in same range as ……<br>
1855 , SMU …… in same range as ……<br>
1845 , Fordham …… in same range as ……<br>
1835 , U TEXAS …… in same range as ……<br>
1835 , Pepperdine …… in same range as ……<br>
1835 , U GEORGIA …… in same range as ……<br>
1820 , OHIO STATE …… in same range as ……<br>
1820 , CLEMSON …… in same range as ……<br>
1815 , U DELAWARE …… in same range as ……<br>
1800 , U WASHINGTON …… in same range as …… </p>

<p>Information Not Available for Writing portion of SAT , National University …… ……………………… …… LAC , Avg SAT</p>

<p>na , U Chicago …… in same range as …… Williams , na
na , Wash U …… in same range as …… Grinnell , na
na , Cornell …… in same range as …… Colgate , na
na , Georgetown …… in same range as …… US Naval Acad , na
na , Wake Forest …… in same range as …… Hamilton , na
na , Lehigh …… in same range as …… Holy Cross , na
na , U ILLINOIS …… in same range as …… Sewanee , na
na , PENN STATE …… in same range as …… Bard , na
na , U FLORIDA …… in same range as ……<br>
na , Yeshiva …… in same range as ……
na , U MARYLAND …… in same range as ……
na , U PITTSBURGH …… in same range as ……
na , U MINNESOTA …… in same range as ……
na , BYU …… in same range as ……
na , INDIANA U …… in same range as ……
na , U IOWA …… in same range as ……
na , VIRGINIA TECH …… in same range as ……</p>

23

<p>…and here is a comparison using ACT scores. Please note that all of the ACT scores below and the SAT scores above are the Mid-points of the 25/75 range for each test.</p>

<p>THE 33+ ACT CLUB </p>

<p>Avg ACT , National University …… ……………………… …… LAC , Avg ACT</p>

<p>34 , Caltech …… in same range as …… Harvey Mudd , 34
33 , Harvard …… in same range as …… </p>

<p>THE 32-33 CLUB </p>

<p>Avg ACT , National University …… ……………………… …… LAC , Avg ACT</p>

<p>32.5 , Princeton …… in same range as …… Pomona , 32
32.5 , MIT …… in same range as ……<br>
32.5 , Wash U …… in same range as ……<br>
32.5 , Notre Dame …… in same range as ……<br>
32 , Yale …… in same range as ……<br>
32 , Stanford …… in same range as ……<br>
32 , Duke …… in same range as ……<br>
32 , Rice …… in same range as …… </p>

<p>THE 31-32 CLUB </p>

<p>Avg ACT , National University …… ……………………… …… LAC , Avg ACT</p>

<p>31.5 , U Penn …… in same range as …… Williams , 31
31.5 , Columbia …… in same range as …… Amherst , 31
31.5 , Dartmouth …… in same range as …… Middlebury , 31
31.5 , Northwestern …… in same range as …… Bowdoin , 31
31.5 , Emory …… in same range as …… Carleton , 31
31.5 , Vanderbilt …… in same range as …… Claremont McK , 31
31.5 , Tufts …… in same range as …… Vassar , 31
31 , Johns Hopkins …… in same range as …… Wesleyan , 31
31 , Cornell …… in same range as ……<br>
31 , Carnegie Mellon …… in same range as …… </p>

<p>THE 30-31 CLUB </p>

<p>Avg ACT , National University …… ……………………… …… LAC , Avg ACT</p>

<p>30.5 , Brown …… in same range as …… Swarthmore , 30.5
30.5 , USC …… in same range as …… Colgate , 30.5
30.5 , Brandeis …… in same range as …… Wellesley , 30
30.5 , Tulane …… in same range as …… Davidson , 30
…… in same range as …… Grinnell , 30
…… in same range as …… Oberlin , 30
…… in same range as …… Colorado College , 30
…… in same range as …… Scripps , 30
…… in same range as …… Macalester , 30
…… in same range as …… Kenyon , 30
…… in same range as …… Whitman , 30</p>

<p>THE 29-30 CLUB </p>

<p>Avg ACT , National University …… ……………………… …… LAC , Avg ACT</p>

<p>29.5 , U Chicago …… in same range as …… W&L , 29.5
29.5 , Georgetown …… in same range as …… Colby , 29.5
29.5 , U VIRGINIA …… in same range as …… Bates , 29.5
29.5 , NYU …… in same range as …… Barnard , 29.5
29.5 , WILLIAM & MARY …… in same range as …… Bryn Mawr , 29
29 , U MICHIGAN …… in same range as …… Mt. Holyoke , 29
29 , Wake Forest …… in same range as …… Bucknell , 29
29 , GEORGIA TECH …… in same range as ……<br>
29 , U Rochester …… in same range as ……<br>
29 , Case Western …… in same range as ……<br>
29 , U Miami …… in same range as …… </p>

<p>THE 28-29 CLUB </p>

<p>Avg ACT , National University …… ……………………… …… LAC , Avg ACT</p>

<p>28.5 , U N CAROLINA …… in same range as …… Smith , 28
28.5 , U ILLINOIS …… in same range as …… U Richmond , 28
28 , UCLA …… in same range as …… Occidental , 28
28 , U WISCONSIN …… in same range as …… Lafayette , 28
…… in same range as …… Sewanee , 28
…… in same range as …… Trinity , 28
…… in same range as …… Furman , 28</p>

<p>THE 27-28 CLUB </p>

<p>Avg ACT , National University …… ……………………… …… LAC , Avg ACT</p>

<p>27.5 , U FLORIDA …… in same range as …… US Military Acad , 27.5
27.5 , George Washington …… in same range as ……<br>
27.5 , OHIO STATE …… in same range as ……<br>
27.5 , Boston University …… in same range as ……<br>
27.5 , U PITTSBURGH …… in same range as ……<br>
27.5 , Pepperdine …… in same range as ……<br>
27.5 , CLEMSON …… in same range as ……<br>
27.5 , SMU …… in same range as ……<br>
27.5 , Worcester …… in same range as ……<br>
27.5 , BYU …… in same range as ……<br>
27 , UC SAN DIEGO …… in same range as ……<br>
27 , U TEXAS …… in same range as ……<br>
27 , Fordham …… in same range as …… </p>

<p>ACT scores not available , National University …… ……………………… …… LAC , Avg ACT</p>

<p>na , UC BERKELEY …… in same range as …… Haverford , na
na , Boston College …… in same range as …… US Naval Acad , na
na , Lehigh …… in same range as …… Hamilton , na
na , UC IRVINE …… in same range as …… Holy Cross , na
na , PENN STATE …… in same range as …… Bard , na
na , U MARYLAND …… in same range as ……
na , RUTGERS …… in same range as ……
na , VIRGINIA TECH …… in same range as ……</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Then members of College Confidential are the worst people to ask.</p>

<p>How many people here, do you think, were born in wealthy and powerful New England or Mid-Atlantic communities? How many people here have actually had the privilege of associating substantially with the academic or moneyed elite? How many people here have actually gone to and graduated from a “prestigious” college? How many people are thus well-qualified to judge whether an institution or a collection of institutions is “prestigious?”</p>

<p>A handful.</p>

<p>CCers can analyze and manipulate data, and make sweeping generalizations about entire institutions without actually having any substantial and meaningful experience pertinent to what they’re talking about.</p>

<p>I am going to repeat my word of advice to you: if reputation is your chief concern, go to Harvard. If, however, Harvard does not accept you, it no longer matters where you attend undergraduate school, because no university or liberal arts college will ever be able to match Harvard College in prestige.</p>

25

<p>Himm, RML is the worst souce of CCers</p>

26

<p>“…size of undergraduate population alone dictates much of the difference in breadth of courses offered. Pointing out such differences make no allowance for quality of offering and certainly not for quality of student body with whom one shares these classroom experiences, eg, U Mass might have a broader slate of academic majors/classes vs Dartmouth, but I doubt many (anyone?) would claim that U Mass is a superior place for undergraduate study.”</p>

<p>By the same token, I was auditing an introductory physics courses at a local community college last year, the class size was about 15, whereas this course may have had well over a hundred students at many major universities. I doubt many would claim that the school with the smaller class size in this case is a superior place for undergraduate study than, say. Princeton. Yet one could make that inference from the post I was responding to. You are correct that broad course selection is a feature of institutions of varied prestige. But the same can be said for small class sizes, per the experience I just relayed.</p>

<p>I only mentioned it because LAC proponents routinely trot out the class size statistic as if that existed without any penalty. Whereas in reality there is an offsetting lack of depth and breadth of their offerings that accompanies this and can have a very real negative impact. These features do not go hand in hand with prestige though, necessarily. Per my example, neither one of them.</p>

<p>A separate point, the capabilities of the aggregate student body was trotted out before by someone; however in a diverse university this is not necessarily very important. What may, in some cases, be important is the capabilities of the students actually in your classes. If I major in physics at Berkeley maybe it does not much matter to me if Berkeley also has a Nursing College that enrolls students with different backgrounds and objectives, mostly taking different courses. The nurses will likely not be in my upper level physics classes.</p>

<p>That’s to the extent the other students matter altogether. That community college physics course I audited was really very good, they used the same text that many major universities use, and covered the material quite sufficiently. Taught by a Physics PhD. Anyone intent on doing so could master the material from there as well as from most other schools. Even if more of their classmates weren’t quite up to the task.</p>

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<p>Depends on the audience you are paying attention to.</p>

<p>For getting into grad schools in general it’s hard to beat Grinnell.
For engineering Harvey Mudd is right up there with MIT.
For writing Kenyon is best in the land.</p>

<p>Get the drift?</p>

<p>If all you want is prestige then by all means go to the HYPed schools.</p>

<p>If you want something else besides prestige you need to look at what the institution offers compared to what you want.</p>

<p>Kei</p>

28

<p>“Himm, RML is the worst souce of CCers”</p>

<p>Careful… RML is a Cambridge graduate… Even though I dont know why he/she isnt out there busy doing work and is always active in CC.</p>

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<p>I think if you’re concerned with prestige, a LAC isn’t for you. After all, a lot of people choose LACs just to get away from that sort of thing.</p>

30

<p>Amherst and Williams are about the same as Brown, Columbia, Dartmouth, and Penn.<br>
Swarthmore is more like Cornell, Duke, or Chicago.<br>
Pomona, Middlebury, and Bowdoin are about equal to Northwestern and Rice</p>

<p>None are equal to HYP.</p>

31

<p>One person’s opinion…
Amherst, Williams similar to Dartmouth, Brown and Duke.
Pomona and Swarthmore similar to the University of Chicago, Johns Hopkins and Columbia/Cornell.
LACs below this -Bowdoin, Wesleyan, Wellesley- tougher to come up with equivalent universities.
I always imagined my kids ending up at LACs, but it hasn’t worked put that way, so far.</p>

32

<p>Interesting observation I’ve made from this thread: years ago, when USNews would ambiguously put Amherst, Williams, and Swarthmore at the top of the LAC rankings, no one would try to separate the 3 in terms of prestige, opportunities, and overall excellence. Now that, for the past few years, Swarthmore has remained stagnant in 3rd place, there seems to be a psychological effect taking place where people are considering Swarthmore as being a slight cut below Amherst and Williams. People seem to focus so much on scrutinizing the national university rankings that they seem to fall victim to the trap that they criticize when it comes to top LACs.</p>

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<p>

Well, that’s the advantage of being an entrepreneur. You can always manage your time, apart from knowing that your money can actually work for you, rather than you will have to work hard for money. ;)</p>

<p>On topic: in terms of school prestige, no LAC can compete with HYPSM. School prestige is often the result of having excellent products (rich, highly academic, very influential alumni) and having excellent research output. Having said that, the LACs are already disadvantage in the other half of the criteria because LACs don’t normally do cutting-edge research. HYPSM are all research-led institutions and their outputs (alumni influence in government, business or scientific breakthroughs) benefits not just America, but the whole world.</p>

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<p>Making the distinction between graduate and undergraduate schools, it’s ironic then that the highest percentages of future PhD researchers come from LACs (six of the top 10; 30 of the top 50). These LAC grads then move on to HYPSM to do some of that cutting-edge research as grad students and beyond. First posted by interesteddad.</p>

<p>Percentage of graduates getting a PhD
Academic field: ALL</p>

<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees:
ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database</p>

<p>Number of Undergraduates:
ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database</p>

<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period. Includes all NSF doctoral degrees inc. PhD, Divinity, etc., but not M.D. or Law.



1   35.8%   California Institute of Technology
2   24.7%   **Harvey Mudd College**
3   21.1%   **Swarthmore College**
4   19.9%   **Reed College**
5   18.3%   Massachusetts Institute of Technology
6   16.8%   **Carleton College**
7   15.8%   **Bryn Mawr College**
8   15.7%   **Oberlin College**
9   15.3%   University of Chicago
10  14.5%   Yale University
11  14.3%   Princeton University
12  14.3%   Harvard University
13  14.1%   **Grinnell College**
14  13.8%   **Haverford College**
15  13.8%   **Pomona College**
16  13.1%   Rice University
17  12.7%   **Williams College**
18  12.4%   **Amherst College**
19  11.4%   Stanford University
20  11.3%   **Kalamazoo College**
21  11.0%   Wesleyan University
22  10.6%   **St John's College<a href="both%20campi">/b</a>
23  10.6%   Brown University
24  10.4%   **Wellesley College**
25  10.0%   **Earlham College**
26  9.6%    **Beloit College**
27  9.5%    Lawrence University
28  9.3%    **Macalester College**
29  9.0%    Cornell University, All Campuses
30  9.0%    **Bowdoin College**
31  8.9%    **Mount Holyoke College**
32  8.9%    **Smith College**
33  8.8%    **Vassar College**
34  8.7%    Case Western Reserve University
35  8.7%    Johns Hopkins University
36  8.7%    **St Olaf College**
37  8.7%    **Hendrix College**
38  8.6%    **Hampshire College**
39  8.5%    Trinity University
40  8.5%    **Knox College**
41  8.5%    Duke University
42  8.4%    **Occidental College**
43  8.3%    University of Rochester
44  8.3%    **College of Wooster**
45  8.3%    **Barnard College**
46  8.2%    **Bennington College**
47  8.1%    Columbia University in the City of New York
48  8.0%    **Whitman College**
49  7.9%    University of California-Berkeley
50  7.9%    College of William and Mary

</p>

35

<p>OP: Are you assuming that prestige = name recognition = quality? And is this the best way you can think of to choose a school?</p>

36

<p>

</p>

<p>Can you point me at this data? I am trying to build quantitative formulas for my spreadsheet to measure this type of thing using current data.
See <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/784229-looking-objective-data-sources-quantify-relationship-between-school-name.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/784229-looking-objective-data-sources-quantify-relationship-between-school-name.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

37

<p>Here is some older PhD origin data:</p>

<p><a href=“http://departments.oxy.edu/ir/bacorg98.pdf[/url]”>http://departments.oxy.edu/ir/bacorg98.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

38

<p>The conclusion I have come to is thus: No matter what, big universities will always carry prestige over LACs. It is frustrating, for top LACers who got into both Williams and Harvard, but in the end, does it matter? If I have a top LAC and a '14 written next to my name for life, I will be very proud. If I become successful, it will not matter whether I attended HYPSM, WASM (my new acronym for Williams Amherst Swarthmore Middlebury) or a state school. College is about learning in the best environment possible and getting a good education for grad/professional school or for a career. Prestige is really just a bunch of BS that random people will judge you by; but in the end, it does not really matter whether you attended Yale or Haverford, Grinnel or Penn. As long as you are happy.</p>

<p>Thank you CC for helping me reach this revelation.</p>

39

<p>^You can make so many acronyms for the top LACs
SWAM, WASM (yours), WASP (with Pomona), SWAMP, SWAP, PAWS, MAWS, etc…</p>

40

<p>Or lets be honest. AW.</p>