Competition vs Collaboration: Rank Schools on Camaraderie Quotient

Prep School Admissions
1

<p>In narrowing a (very preliminary) slate of schools, we are interested in finding schools of the highest intellectual caliber. We want schools with students working together for enriched learning and celebrating diverse perspectives. We want to avoid caustic atmospheres with students competing for grades (or class rankings), and want to avoid wasting time with showboating students sucking-up to the teacher. We also dislike work for work’s sake, and seek workloads carefully selected to provide valuable insights & integrative/organic learning at the highest levels. </p>

<p>In sum: we want to steer clear (as much as possible) of masochists or egotists, but seek stimulation, collaboration, and camaraderie. So, can you help us come up with a slate of the top schools for collaborative spirit with intellectual rigor? Please help recommend some “safeties” in that spirit too! </p>

<p>It’s also very important that students are authentic, free to speak their mind, be individuals and find themselves. Pressure to conform should be considered a primal sin! </p>

<p>Note: we’re only looking on the East Coast (DC to Maine), but feel free to speak up about other schools to help others with this question (wish we didn’t have to rule out Cate/Thatcher, but can’t cope with airfare).</p>

2

<p>To kick things off, we’ve reviewed the threads here extensively, and read alumni comments at boardingschoolreview, here are some of our notes, based on what we’ve read (we know they’re based on small, non-random samples, that’s why we’re seeking more input before we narrow the field):</p>

<p>Exeter’s Harkness system is raved about by all their alumni, who feel it succeeds in fostering a collaborative spirit. Is that accurate? We worry that the size may be too large to feel intimate camaraderie… are students close & supportive? Also, is the workload over-the top excessive? For the students in the top half of class (in terms of academic ability and preparation), is the workload soul-crushing or enlightening/empowering? </p>

<p>Andover: We know it’s a small sample, but Andover grads were much more likely to complain about competition in their reviews… is that accurate or a sampling bias? (on a separate note, with complaints town/gown relations, why can’t the students improve relations with the townies? Is there an ongoing problem with some being arrogant/entitled?)</p>

<p>SPS- one noted that the Socratic method fostered collaboration, not competitiveness. Another said they were taught to enjoy the journey, not seek the grade. Are those representative comments?</p>

<p>Groton- one quote “Although students are all academically motivated, there is absolutely no sense of cut-throat competition; they genuinely care about their peers and are willing to give up their time to help others.” Seconded by another grad “Often we’d be discussing a topic we were learning and it felt more like a friendly conversation than class. The intimacy of the classes and the encouragement of the teachers helped one to grow and thrive in all subjects.” Sounds good, can anyone corroborate that perspective? While the small size, and cherished circle speak to intimacy, is there celebration of diversity, individuality, etc? [Also, has the community united in opposition to past hazing and homophobia reported by alums?]</p>

<p>We could go on, but guess we’ll wait to see what kind of response we get… </p>

<p>We’re also looking for input on: Choate, Deerfield, Hotchkiss, Lawrenceville, Middlesex, Milton, Peddie, Taft, and any other school that you love!</p>

3

<p>SPS fits your criteria. Our experience is the kids, although competitive with themselves, are not competitive with each other. They are willing to collaborate and help each other. I think the sense of community and no rankings/GPAs helps with this.</p>

<p>In terms of being open to accepting diverse personalities and interests, you will find that at SPS as well. </p>

<p>In case you haven’t seen these videos, they speak to the heart of the SPS community:
[YouTube</a> - Coming Out Speech (Part 1 of 3)<a href=“starts%20out%20rough%20but%20hang%20in%20as%20it%20gets%20better%20after%20the%20first%20minute%20or%20so”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a4L-i732kU&feature=related]YouTube”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a4L-i732kU&feature=related]YouTube</a> - Coming Out Speech (Part 2 of 3) - I’m Lost](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU0-z9Wtz5g&feature=related]YouTube”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU0-z9Wtz5g&feature=related)
<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OABTyTGnhaM&feature=related[/url]”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OABTyTGnhaM&feature=related&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

4

<p>Here’s the thing. You can of course ask for input from the CC members here, but then you just get another small sample, and likely you will get contradictory opinions. Why don’t you just believe what you have read for your initial search. Talk to the current and past students and parents when you get admitted to a certain school, which IMO is more reliable than soliciting opinions here. Nothing again your posts - they are good ones. I am just suggesting a pragmatic approach.</p>

5

<p>Creative1 thanks for the input & links on SPS. It definitely seems like a winner.</p>

<p>Benley, I completely agree that this will suffer the same small sample size and can’t be relied on too heavily. But I am sincerely trying to shave a few schools off the potential visit & application list</p>

<p>Currently we’re interested in about 15 potential schools (including safeties), but that’s too many to physically visit and apply to. So, I’m hoping to draw on the collective wisdom of people who’ve conducted visits at multiple campuses with a critical eye focussed on quality of life. It also seems like a dimension that is not directly assessed or spoken to in a lot of threads, so it’s hard to get any comparative feel. </p>

<p>But if the consensus is “you just have to visit,” we’ll have to respect that wisdom.</p>

6

<p>Lawrenceville too has an excellent Harkness system. The house system (think Harry Potter) also builds very strong friendships. Students are very academically motivated, but that being said, the school does rank students and students only compete with each other if they feel the need to. There are only about 800 students in the school too, not tiny, but by no means a huge population either. The workload is tough with so many campus activities and sports, but it is surely manageable.</p>

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<p>I agree with Benley, and would just add that these would be great things to discuss with your tour guide and interviewer. The tour guide, in particular, will probably be honest with you kid about those kinds of things. If your kid has a special interest, you might also consider contacting some coaches for info. about the school–they can give real insight into the community. Summer is a great time to contact faculty/coaches as they have more time to e-mail.</p>

8

<p>I think you can narrow down your list simply by looking at their size, location, selectivity and general reputation, etc. Remember these are all top tier schools. Just as you won’t regret if you add one more of such school in your list, you won’t feel much loss either when you exclude one as the rest are just as good.</p>

9

<p>In our family’s experience, Choate meets all of your criteria. However, you’ll have to visit for yourself while school in in session to find out if you think so too!</p>

10

<p>As long as you consider the source - current student/parent vs. prospective student - you CAN get some good opinions here.</p>

<p>What other criteria do you have? Child’s sports, arts, other ECs?</p>

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<p>Our son’s (and our own) re-visit experiences at Exeter match quite well with your own preliminary reading. There was a degree of warm and respectful collegiality among the students that became the primary reason our son chose Exeter over another top-rated school. His re-visit observations were ratified in conversations with two Exeter students from our area. However, even given that, it would be best if you could get some candid feedback yourself from current Exeter students. Good luck with your fact-finding!</p>

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<p>I just have a minute before having to pick up kids & be offline a while…
Thanks for the considered responses so far, both here and via PM. I really appreciate the input and the suggestions for how to approach the (daunting) process. </p>

<p>Rest assured we consider the opinions a rough (but valued) preliminary screening tool: we will absolutely validate opinions by asking any & every student/faculty/admissions officer we can about these & other issues for the schools we do visit. </p>

<p>As for other criteria, I’m not sure how much we’re supposed to mask identifying data for our profile yet, but my first child up is a classically trained musician, and will pursue that, will also expect to be in cardio-intensive sports like swim/crew/cross-country. though the lack of any one will not rule out a place (i.e., SPS still in running without a swim team). </p>

<p>Thanks again for all the input, and please keep it coming! (can use multiple opinions on schools, and many not touched on yet)</p>

13

<p>I suspect that you won’t get much negative from any current students on the camraderie quotient: students can probably find supportive and fun groups of friends at any of the schools on your list (as well as some arrogant jerks who managed to fool admissions, too!). But since you mention music: there are differences at these schools. Some schools, because of proximity and limited Saturday schedules, enable students to participate in elite external orchestras. For example, many top Andover musicians are in New England Conservatory’s Youth Philharmonic. Check link below for articles on four of them (“Playing it Forward”, “Student Cellist Named Presidential Scholar”, and “Young Cellists Personify Instrument’s Rise”). The 3 seniors in the article are all Harvard-bound, incidentally. </p>

<p>[Phillips</a> Academy - News From Andover](<a href=“http://www.andover.edu/About/Newsroom/Pages/default.aspx]Phillips”>http://www.andover.edu/About/Newsroom/Pages/default.aspx)</p>

<p>Of course, if your child is a serious musician but doesn’t want that option, then many of the schools would be fine.</p>

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<p>The Lawrenceville School seems to fit all of that criteria. They have the Harkness System, which encourages students to speak out. I’ve also heard from many that Lawrenceville’s a more “well-rounded” school, but I don’t know more on that point. The House System really encourages students to be themselves; there’s nothing like the support of a little “family” on campus. It also adds to the “collaborative spirit” you’re looking for; there’s house pride, house rivalry, house sports, house flags, etc, and makes an 800-student-school seem so much smaller. As a bonus, the matriculation’s impressive.</p>

15

<p>Another vote for SPS. I’m gonna be attending next year and during my visit I found that they have pretty much everything your looking for. The Harkness method as mentioned in previous posts certainly helps and the school’s size is perfect. Not to mention all of the kids seemed warm and very close.</p>

16

<p>Ahhh, great topic. A schools culture is such an important consideration because it will resonate in the life of your son or daughter every day while at boarding school. </p>

<p>Regarding the added travel expense to the West Coast schools, it can’t be eliminated but it can be minimized by pre-booking airline tickets. Also, Cate’s tuition is less than some of the New England prep schools, so even with the additional travel expense, it might still be a lower cost option. Not having to buy a winter coat is a bonus! :-)</p>

<p>CP</p>

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<p>People are nicer when the weather is warm and sunny! And…NOTHING beats long weekend visits to Southern California during the cold East Coast winters. I’d put Cate and Thacher’s Cam-Index at the top of the heap. Round trip for 4 days from DC would cost us an average of $1,500 (for two). We went twice a year as a couple and I went once for a father-son long weekend. I miss it!</p>

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<p>Cate & Thatcher Parents: Everything I’ve heard about your schools suggest my kids would absolutely love it there. And I highly recommend everyone interested in this thread to consider them. We just aren’t comfortable with a full day of travel being between parents & children (at high expense & at the mercy of increasingly unreliable airlines). Now, if we could transfer our jobs to the left coast…</p>

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<p>Lemonade1:
It’s a great point that people aren’t likely to post negative comments on camaraderie. Not only will well-adjusted kids find a niche anywhere, but people are generally pretty respectful on this forum. However (and this is not really addressed to you, but an effort to keep utility of the thread clear), I believe there are cultural differences at these elite schools that significantly impact quality of life. Given the very high academic demands at elite schools, a spirit of vibrant collaboration vs cutthroat competition is going to make a huge difference in how happy and successful my children are. </p>

<p>It’s great that people are reluctant to post “negative” comments. Useful information can still be gleaned by contrasting silence about schools with clear affirmations of another school’s collaborative spirit. [also, some people have discretely shared negative experiences via PM, for which I am very grateful and maintain confidentiality]</p>

<p>Let me reiterate that wasn’t really directed at you… And, thanks for the excellent suggestion to evaluate access to external music programs. We’ll certainly factor that in our final rank-ordering. [fingers crossed, hoping we actually have more than one acceptance to chose from… of course, we’ll be happy with one!]</p>

20

<p>Benley: Your advice (post 8) is really solid. It’s good not to go overboard in the analysis, or think there’s only one right school. I’m sure a random sample of 5 of the top 25 schools would produce a couple great “fits” for my kids. Still, given the selectivity of these schools, we’re just trying to maximize the odds that most of the schools we bother to visit will be a great fit. And… isn’t this a welcome break from discussion of MATRIC, Prestige, and HADES? […Not that these aren’t useful topics, I’m considering subscribing to the Bunkel Rating Service to get the up to the minute stats! Actually I’d lay odds the Camaraderie Quotient is already factored in.]</p>