So I’ve been watching and reading and posting a little here as a parent of a kid that just finished his junior year and is interested in applying to music programs.
Anyway - in talking to some parents locally about their own students that are currently in music programs/conservatory, I have heard the word “competitive” used to describe a number of them. And I’m not talking about for admissions. The feel of the program is “competitive”. I am super curious what this actually means and haven’t really had the change to dig into this with anyone in person.
I’m wondering if any parents or students currently matriculating have any thoughts about what that means in the context of a music program’s day to day working? Do some students perceive an environment as competitive and others do not? Are kids literally competing against each other for every little opportunity? Do the music kids then not gel as a social group? Does faculty push that vibe?
Maybe this discussion will go no where, but having heard and read this a number of places I was hoping some more experienced folks might have some insight to this describer. I’m happy to take responses via PM too.
I agree that some schools do have an especially competitive vibe. The atmosphere can vary from major to major, but there is an air of competitiveness throughout. This is not necessarily pushed by the faculty, and the administration might even push back against it, working to increase collegiality and collaboration. But institutions have long memories. An institution with a vibe like this tends to attract kids who have a competitive nature. The physical architecture of the school can also contribute to the vibe. My daughter went to Juilliard, which has a reputation for having a competitive atmosphere. Which is not to say that there isn’t collaboration and friendliness among the students, faculty, and staff. But the environment feels competitive, which injects an element of stress within which not everyone will flourish. One of her friends, who was at Juilliard for six years and is now pursuing another degree at Rice was telling me recently how different the vibe is there–he says there is a feeling of support and collaboration throughout the institution, very different from Juilliard (which he loved–he loves and thrives at both places.)
It’s hard to know without visiting an institution, spending some time there and talking to the student. If your own student has friends already attending various conservatories, it would be good to check in with them to get a feeling for the vibe at those school.
I’m not surprised that a school like Julliard would feel intense. Now I do find it interesting that someone who went to Julliard and then Rice would describe Rice as collaborative. I’m wondering if another student coming directly into Rice might feel differently? And how much of that is shaded by student’s perceptions and past experiences and personality.
I’ve had Lawrence University’s conservatory described to me as competitive feeling by 2 different parents of conservatory students. Talked to another student who didn’t talk that way about it at all. We didn’t get that vibe at all visiting campus. We’ve visited a number of programs now and we didn’t really get a competitive vibe anywhere but there’s only so much you can get in a day on campus. And students aren’t always straight talking unless you can get them outside an admissions context. I’ve heard that describer used on other programs we’ve looked at. Even smaller ones that I definitely wouldn’t have thought that would be the case.
For my particular kid, auditioning is not a big deal for him. He’s fine with that. He’s happy for friends that succeed even when he doesn’t. He doesn’t naturally perceive “competition” or “intense” when surrounded by talented musician/theater kids. But if a school’s music social scene is all colored by intensity and competition and there wasn’t natural collaboration happening in a program, I could see him not liking that so much. I also wonder how much of this might be part of being a big fish in a small pond vs. being a small fish in a big pond? In the back of my head I’m also wondering if my kid would be better off as the big or small fish.
I’d love any thoughts! I’m just generally wondering when a student perceives a program as “competitive” what that means to them on a day to day basis.
My take on this is (allowing for the fact that different people learn differently, thrive in different environments, and have different goals): 1) the music world is competitive, so that’s something to get used to anyway. 2) there are many different kinds of competition. Rice is a terrific orchestral program (I can’t speak to other majors, like voice) and orchestra is stressed there in the curriculum in a way that it’s not at other conservatories. If your student is interested in an orchestra career, it would be a place to consider. Orchestra jobs are in fact very competitive, but being a good ensemble player requires collaborative skills that may be stressed less in other programs. 2) It’s probably always better to be a small fish if you plan to go into a competitive career. Smaller fish have room to grow. When you’re the big fish, you’re at risk of becoming too comfortable, and a little bored, and a little unsure of where you stand in the world, and what you need to reach for. That said, I can think of situations where it might be better to be the big fish, such as a desire to remain in a particular geographic region, or a desire to focus more on teaching than performance.
This may sound polyanna-ish or even naive, but if a student conducts themselves in a way that is truly collaborative and supportive, it tends to spill over onto others. A school may have a certain environment but each student can help create it.
Naturally, when opportunities are limited or scarce,there will be competition, but it does not have to be the same thing as cutthroat. I have heard a few places are gentler, and will PM you, but it sounds like your son can handle whatever comes his way and remain happy for others while at the same time pursuing things for himself.
I’ll give an “opinion” on this particularly as I’m kind of familiar with Lawrence.
Competitive can be a catch-all phrase for a lot of emotions. So I think that’s what you are trying to figure out…what it means. I’m not going to get into the unhealthy competitive environments as I think they are pretty rare…especially for vocalist who are so young. And I would doubt a particularly unhealthy, non-collaborative environment would exist at Lawerence. My impression of Lawrence is that it is a very supportive environment…but that doesn’t mean no competition.
Any selective program (which included Lawrence) IS competitive. When my D went to school, I got that programs would be challenging with many great students. But I did not understand how “hard” a music degree would be. I didn’t completely understand how challenging the academic side could be…particularly with brilliant instrumentalists in theory classes. Nor did I understand the time required for ensemble work, studio classes, the next surprise in her schedule and a no credit class. Plus there are the yearly juries and the fact that jr yr some people get bad news (no to grad school). And don’t forget they are auditioning for opportunities each semester … which of course they then measure their success (or not) against a small number of excellent peers…and everyone knows your business. So competitive? Heck ya! And…if you continue it only gets more competitive. It is a field of limited opportunities that requires competition. Programs prepare you for that.
When a parent tells you Lawrence (or another school) is competitive, you may want to ask what they mean and try to dig deeper. It could be simply a point of pride. It could be surprise at how intense or time consuming it is (my “competitive”). It could be concern as their child who was always a little “special” is just one of the crowd (I think this can be common). Maybe the kid tried for an opera scene workshop and didn’t get a role (and everyone’s in the dumps for a semester). It could be they are struggling academically. I knew one girl who had a beautiful soprano (but on the light side…not a lot of power) who really struggled academically at Lawrence. She was the star at her high school but when she barely passed theory and then wasn’t getting special attn, my understanding is things started to unravel. She did graduate but was pretty done with music. Her mother kept telling me how difficult Lawrence was. However I knew others students there who did fine. One boy had particularly great growth there. His family loved Lawrence. He was in the same class with the girl and got the nod for grad school. She did not. So…that colors a parent’s view.
I guess I would suggest to expect “competitive” at many selective schools and even embrace it. But that does not necessarily mean non-collaborative or non-supportive. And if your son can be happy for others that’s half the battle. He’ll be fine in many competitive environments.
As for big/small fish, I would be sure to discuss it but let him make the decision in the end. Just make sure he considers some variety in schools as his opinion can change over a year.
Great post above. Competitive and cut-throat are not the same thing 
In some sense, as bridgenail implied, you WANY competitive.
Thanks for the thoughts! I do not mean to pick on Lawrence. We visited and honestly it’s my #1 pick for this kid right now from our list of schools we’ve visited though he has (many) other thoughts. I have definitely heard this about other programs too. We’re in the Midwest so I just hear more about Midwestern programs than others. And most of these families I know well enough to ask “How do you like program X” but haven’t had the context or opportunity to dig deeper.
My kid is interested in vocal programs and possibly taking composition lessons on the side right now as an undergrad. He’s also had many years of piano, plays at an advanced level, and could work up a piano performance audition if he wanted. Which he does not - he’s pretty burned out on classical piano but is interested in collaboration, etc. He’s taken theory and done testing. He has perfect pitch. He can sight read and sight sing pretty well. So I think he’s well poised to succeed in a VP program. I have talked to parents of VP students where kids have really struggled with theory or ear work, etc and I don’t think that will be him.
So maybe naively I don’t worry about my kid a ton academically. I worry about him more organizationally in terms of keeping up with requirements and keeping a good calendar. I know it will be really busy! And I worry about him socially too. I thought there was a good quirky vibe at Lawrence that could work, but I’m sure many other programs could. I know he’s excited about working closely with faculty and other musicians and bonding over music! I like that he could also easily double major at Lawrence - both the theater program and the Entrepreneurship program there are of interest. It’s not like he aspires to be an opera singer. I think he can envision himself as a collaborative artist, performer, writer, composer. So many people we know in the arts help run arts organizations and I think he can see that side of it too. He plays guitar also. He has hinted at times about a contemporary program but then also sees the merits of being at a real university and getting more traditional training for undergrad. I think a program that at least had a jazz program alongside could be a nice compromise. He’s going to be doing some heavy research this summer and we may have time to visit a couple more further flung programs late summer/early fall before applying.
Anyway - hearing from parents of current students about this really helps clarify this in my mind so again thanks to all for sharing their experiences and expertise. Intensity will be good for him for sure. His music teachers are very encouraging about this route for him. I will be watching for other opportunities to grill parents in person. LOL. I do definitely welcome any other thoughts about the vibe of programs - generally or specifically.
I’m a little late to the party, but I also think that competitiveness or the perception of it varies from instrument to instrument as well. A bassoonist’s or tuba player’s view will be MUCH different from that of a violinist. So there is that to consider as well.
As has been stated, the music world is competitive by nature. Music is both an exacting task master and an interpretive art form and that makes it 10x more difficult.
It sounds like you and your son have a really great outlook and are poised to find just the right program for him. Best wishes on the journey!
Just thinking aloud on this, I think our perspective might be slightly different because my kid is not enrolled in a traditional high school. He doesn’t do school music or theater programs. We live in a metro area. The last theater production he was cast in had around 250 student actors audition from all over the place. Some kids drive for 1-2 hours for the music programs he does. So he tends to mix with talented kids day to day. He’s not always on the top for everything. He’s not always cast in everything he auditions for. I could see a kid who was always the star in a school setting could have a rude awakening in a college program where he/she was one of many and why that might color perceptions differently.
The folks on this board are the kindest on CC. Thanks so much!
You’re doing a great job at researching schools/programs. Asking a lot of questions can really help particularly in coming up with a solid list of schools. It’s good in the summer to have open-ended discussions to make your kid think about many options.
Then, in the fall, you let him start the application process to see what schools get done (and don’t if there were a few lower interest option on the list). Time and money usually shorten a list and that’s as it should be. As he auditions, you have to do what all the parents have done before you…just have faith that he will recognize “his people” and the right fit programs. Kids can usually tell where they belong talent-wise/fit-wise/school-wise…and where they don’t. In the end it’s a leap of faith, especially for parent who may want hard data. But your kid will recognize the right programs. They all do to some extent.