Complicated Family Situation

Paying for College
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<p>Aha - what your missing here is that expenses are not taken into account - just income and assets. So a family living in the Bay Area and making $100k/year is screwed, while the same family living in West Virginia (for example) might be able to pay a significant chunk of the full cost of private college. No, it’s not fair . . . but that’s the way it is.</p>

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<p>Yes, FAFSA is essentially a snapshot of your assets the day you file. But there are two other things you need to keep in mind:</p>

<p>(1) The CSS Profile may be due sooner - especially if your daughter applies Early Decision anywhere. (Note: this is a particularly AWFUL idea in your circumstances, especially if she’s looking for competitive merit aid!) Just be aware of the Profile due date for EACH school she applies to.</p>

<p>(2) Getting the FAFSA filed on the most advantageous date is fine . . . but be aware that if your tax return isn’t also filed as early as possible, your daughter could have a real problem at any school that wants to verify her tax info before issuing a financial aid award.</p>

<p>Estimate if you need to, and file an amended return later . . . but get that tax return filed as close to January 15 as possible! (No, I’m not kidding.) And make sure all taxes are paid when you file. If you owe anything, processing on your return will be delayed significantly. (And, yes, I’m assuming that with a partnership, this is darned near impossible . . . which is why I’m giving you a heads up NOW.)</p>

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<p>DGDzDad - in your situation, I think the most important thing (and the first thing) you and your D should do is find a good academic and financial safety. It’s easy to find reaches and dream schools; finding a safety school that’s a good fit and that your D would be happy to attend is harder. Find that school and get her excited about it. Don’t let her get fixated on a dream school or a bunch of top tier schools that she may not get into or that you may not be able to afford. </p>

<p>My D had stats similar to your D’s. She just finished up a fabulous freshman year at one of her safety schools. Although it was a safety school, and didn’t start out at the top of her list, by the time she had to choose her school it was #1, on its own merits without regard to finances. If a student is open minded and receptive to all opportunities, and not focused on the same 20-30 schools as every other high achieving student, he or she can find a lot of great schools that will be a really good fit and provide an excellent education. Check out the guaranteed merit scholarship thread that was linked in one of your threads - there are some gems on that list.</p>

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<p>You are getting the best advice here you can get, OP.</p>

<p>The one thing is that dodgersmom is telling you something important, but it requires, I would imagine, a paradigm shift for you and your family.</p>

<p>You state that the schools your daughter is interested in are the Profile schools, but these are, generally, NOT the schools which offer substantial guaranteed merit.</p>

<p>So, your list of schools might very well need to change, if you want to defray the full pay costs you face. </p>

<p>good luck.</p>

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<p>*Quote:
Good tip about timing of filling out the FAFSA . . . I guess I should date the FAFSA right after I make the quarterly payments.
*</p>

<p>With your income, FAFSA timing, etc, is hardly going to matter. Your income is too high. What are you expecting? Your EFC with an income of $250k+ will likely be $99k for one in college, and $50k for each child with 2 in college.</p>

<p>I don’t think you understand what federal aid is. Fed aid (free money) is for LOW INCOME people only. You’d get nothing. You’d get student loans no matter what. </p>

<p>At schools that are going to give you aid, they’re going to use CSS Profile to determine aid, not FAFSA (except to see if you’re Pell eligible, and you’re not). </p>

<p>UC and CSUs are FAFSA only, but again, you’re not going to qualify for any free need-based money no matter what you do. Cal Grants and Blue and Gold Promise are income tested. Incomes have to be MUCH, MUCH lower than yours (less than $100k) to qualify. You’d get NOTHING.</p>

<p>I’m just not sure what you’re expecting from filling out FAFSA, except that you’re going to have a very high EFC…even with 2 in college.</p>

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<p>*In-state schools will not be a money saver for this family - they’re not going to qualify for state aid and California schools are expensive! There are a handful of merit awards available for the UC’s, but they are few and far between.</p>

<p>I still believe this family’s best option is to focus on private and out-of-state public where the kids would qualify for substantial merit aid.</p>

<p>(And, yes, CA schools might be an option for your current junior if she were to spend more than half of the current calendar year living with Mom, since CA state schools require FAFSA only, and would only consider only Mom’s income. But would you really want to upset the applecart this way??? Also, this would not work if someone else is paying X & Hubby’'s bills - that would be treated as income for FAFSA purposes.)*</p>

<p>I agree that Calif publics likely will not work UNLESS, the student commutes to a CSU and pays only $6500 tuition. Or if the student somehow lucks out and gets a HUGE Regents scholarship to a low level UC…maybe, but not likely.</p>

<p>This dad needs to figure out how much he can pay each year. If he can pay $15k per year for THIS child (plus whatever he has to pay for the others), then the D needs at least a full tuition scholarship somewhere, so that his $15k can pay for room, board, books, fees, etc. His D can take a small student loan to cover any uncovered costs.</p>

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<p>Basic bottom line.</p>

<p>start here.</p>

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<p>OP, you’ve received a wealth of good information and advice here.</p>

<p>I just want to add two points, from personal experience: firstly, that the FA offers of even CSS schools can end up varying wildly, due to institutional methodology; secondly, that you CAN appeal a decision and sometimes it works.</p>

<p>Take our case. (I’m going to give you some real college names, so you know what we’re dealing with.) At the time that S applied to colleges, our income was about $30K per year, and had been so for several years. Both of us were self-employed. H owned a 1/3 share of an inherited vacation property, and his share was considered to be worth about $100k. He could neither sell his share (he tried), nor convince his sibs to sell the whole thing, nor borrow against it (they tried). (They had put it in some kind of LLC, I believe, which affected this.)</p>

<p>Most of the schools to which S applied–most of which were real “meets need” schools, since even a large merit scholarship was not going to make college feasible–initially came out with a similar figure. They expected us to pay $20K per year on our $30K income. Why? Because they all assumed that we could sell the unsaleable asset. One school, Pomona, apparently actually believed that we couldn’t sell it, and gave S essentially a full ride, less work-study, the minimal Federal student loan, and the modest amount of money we had put in a trust for him before our financial disaster struck. (All of the schools expected that contribution from S, but some wanted the $20K from us in addition.) We appealed at the two schools that were his final choices: the University of Chicago and Dartmouth (which had initially come in with a figure between the other two). The U of C basically denied our appeal, giving us a token $1K. (They also reduced any aid he would get by the amount of his NMF scholarship from them. That only benefits full-pay students.) Dartmouth more or less matched Pomona’s offer, with a slightly different structure. Luckily for us, he chose Dartmouth independent of any financial considerations.</p>

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<p>YOU may not believe your business has a market value, nor anyone in your business, but none of that makes any difference if a college has a way of evaluating your business value. Schools vary on how they do that, but I can tell you what some/many do is simply back your income from your business into a value. You can argue until you are blue in the face that your business is all one time, and past business means nothing for future business, but that is the way it is often done. My brother is an attorney who owns his own firm, does very well, but he’d sell in in an instant for what it’s valued, for a quarter, 10% of what it’s valued, LOL. Basically, the business is HIM. He goes out and hustles. But, if you have an office, a lease, equipment, all of that has a value. You think EFC stands for “Every Friggin” Cent" Well, wait until the PROFILE folks get a load of what you have. You are not alone, my friend, that is the way the system works. </p>

<p>Seriously, if you and/or your DD have some schools in mind, see if they’ll do a pre read so you have some idea how your business will be valued and how your business income will be revalued with all of the deductions added back. Otherwise you have no idea how any of the financial aid numbers will go until it is "game over’ and you’re sitting there with the offers, or no offers in hand and a kid who wants to pick a college.</p>

<p>A lot of times, I want to warn you. with PROFILE, the non custodial parent simply refuses to fill out the form. Can’t make them. Actually it’s a problem with a lot of a parents. They just won’t fill out the forms, FAFSA or PROFILE, and kids get stuck that way. No tickee, no laundry. And when the “laundry” is financial aid, and no one will pay, the kid can’t go to college. </p>

<p>But, no, you are absolutely not going to get any benefit from having a non custodial parent who has no income/assets. In fact, it’s going to be a pain in your backside, if the schools/government get curious how the heck they live on just air, and it turns out they are getting money from GP or other family members. Those handouts are counted as non taxable income. Yes, anyone giving money to you, your kids, your spouse, your ex spouse if she is filling out PROFILE, it’s to be included on the form. There is a line item right there for it. The way people get around this is they call it a loan and document it as such. And, yes, the term and conditions have to be about what the market calls fair.</p>

<p>As for merit money, which is what some folks are suggesting, your best bet is to look for schools that give large merit awards to students who are well in the upper echelon test score wise, that match your DD’s. If your DD has SATs around 2000, you should be looking at schools where that upper 25% line is drawn at about 1900. The closer you can get to the % of those getting aid, and the % your DD’s test lies, the better you can get a read as to what kind of merit money she can get. </p>

<p>As one who has been through this gauntlet a few times, I can tell you that getting large merit awards is very, very difficult . Talk to counselors at the high school as to what schools they know have been giving kids from there, some nice scholarship packages. Check out the Catholic schools. Beating the in state public school price is difficult, I found. That private schools are now at the $60K+ level means that even a half scholarship means coughing up more than $30K. We ran into that with my one son. Got that huge award, and still left a big chunk to pay, and here in NY, the state school is about $20K. Beating that price, especially with even a small merit award, has just about been impossible My last son did do so with a free tuition offer from a local school But you give up the 3 Rs when you do that, the Rankings, Reputation, Recognition that the school has Lots of trade offs.</p>

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<p>Note that there is a flexible definition of “meet need”. For example, even the schools reputed to be the most generous with financial aid (e.g. Harvard and Stanford) expect a student contribution of a few thousand dollars per year of work or work-study earnings. UCs expect about $8,500 per year (Stafford loan + work earnings) from the student, but otherwise meet need for in-state students based on FAFSA EFC. Run some example numbers in the net price calculators at various schools to see this (though self-employment and your messy family situation can make them less reliable for estimating your actual financial aid than they would be for many students and families).</p>

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<p>Given the income level the OP posted before, it seems that even full-paying three students at (non-commuter) UCs would still leave a lot of after tax income to support the non-college-student remaining parts of the OP’s nuclear family.</p>

<p>Perhaps some family austerity measures are in order.</p>

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<p>At the risk of getting my head handed to me, if D goes to live with her mom for her senior year in HS, will D qualify for Blue and Gold based solely on mom/stepdad income? Is this tolerable? Do they live close by?</p>

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<p>^^^</p>

<p>Oh, I agree. But the OP doesn’t think he can afford to pay out much at all each year towards his Ds’ and SD’s college. It sounds like his mortgage (and maybe there’s a second mortgage to pay back the grands for the down), and the family’s expenses (some may be optional) are taking nearly all of his money. </p>

<p>If it’s true that he has no assets, including any retirement assets, then seriously, this dad needs to be looking for nearly cost-free educations for these girls, so that he can spend the next 10+ years directing money towards retirement. It sounds like he’s facing at least 10 straight years of having 4 girls going thru college.</p>

<p>I think that when the OP says that his business has no value, he’s only looking at the physical things like computers. But, his business is a professional one. Likely he has clients or business-reputation that has value. My in-law’s insurance business had very little in physical value, but their client list was worth a bunch…and that’s what was “sold” when they retired.</p>

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<p>At the risk of getting my head handed to me, if D goes to live with her mom for her senior year in HS, will D qualify for Blue and Gold based solely on mom/stepdad income? Is this tolerable? Do they live close by?</p>

<p>Yes and maybe no. Blue and Gold is based on custodial parents’ income. However, it may be unbelievable that the mom’s family has no income, so maybe there will be verification issues. What’s paying their rent? What’s paying for their food and utilities? What’s paying for the baby’s expenses. </p>

<p>I think the OP mentions that the mom moved away. If so, then that would mean that the D would have to change schools for senior year. That doesn’t sound appealing to many rising seniors. Without any income, they probably wouldn’t even have the space for this D. Plus, they might demand that the OP pay them child support and get it.</p>

<p>*D1, D2, and D3 live with me full time since X moved away to another city, although our official custody order is 50/50. I make a good living as a self-employed prof’l. *</p>

<p>it would make sense that they moved away. After all, the OP claims that he can barely live on $250k per year, so his ex certainly can’t live in the area on $0. lol</p>

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<p>I see from earlier posts that she is interested in places like Georgetown, Tufts, Penn and Princeton. As far as I know they are not schools that are going to award you financial aid. Honestly, if you are that concerned about money you really ought to be taking the long view as people have suggested. While you are on the east coast you could visit any number of LACs or non-top-tier schools that would love to have her and would make it financially worth your while. If grad school is her goal, there is no advantage in most fields to having a more prestigious name on her resume for undergrad. She can kick butt at a good college where she is a top performer and have her choice of options for grad school–potentially even paid. Also, I don’t know if colleges factor in travel expenses when making aid awards but as I am sure you know it will cost a pretty penny to fly her back and forth.</p>

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<p>Mom2, fyi, where I live, if there is Joint Legal Custody (which there usually is with 50/50), the child may attend either school. Question would be is it close enough for kid to drive to school. If true, mom can say she is supported by inlaws.</p>

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<p>There are a lot of ways to skin a cat. It might mean spending time at grandparent’s place and logging visits equally to mom and dad, but a little bit more to dad. However, one documents it And a word to GPs that some loans papers should be in order for fin aid purposes can be done as well. As long as it is all done legally, not a problem Actually once the kid is in school, she might not be spending much time at anyone’s place. My son is hardly here now–has apartment and job at school for the summer. Had to pay summer rent to get the off campus place, so he can just stay there–got a higher paying job there than here, so…we’ll see him intermittently. In our case, there are no exes since we are an intact family, but if we were not, it’s entirely possible that he could be spending this year, with the non custodial parent and s/he turns into the custodial one, given the definition as FAFSA has. </p>

<p>The OP should look at what he can afford for college for the two girls next year , if he is paying for them both, which looks like the case. Since he is into equity, and fairness, and no favoritism, I guess he’ll pay the same amount for each? I wouldn’t necessarily, but I don’t do artificial equity, and go by the situation, and my kids know that and understand that. We don’t make a big deal out of some people getting more than others in the family. If I want to pay for A but not for B, that is my choice and business. </p>

<p>But, the OP here does have budgetary constraints and so should lay them out, and see what is out there for what he can afford for the girls next year, He should also look at what the sticker prices are for schools in the area, and what commuting costs will run, what sleep away colleges will run, state U costs–Cal States, comm coll and UCs, merit and fin aid possibilities, waht local privates might have some money available. and plan that way, letting the two girls know. </p>

<p>Some of my kids went to top cost schools, some to state schools, in and OOS. It depends on what they had in mind. Trying to keep the cost equitable was not an issue. We could pay so much, and the kids worked from that point One kid’s best program option was one of the least expensive, and another’s was one of the most expensive. All of my kids are hoping that my youngest can go anywhere he pleases with no regard to cost, and want to chip in so that could happen. No jealousy and money counting on who gets what. </p>

<p>One daughter might want a program that is just fine locally and want to stay at home Anothers needs and academic goals might be better met by a private school. When people get too obsessed with fairness and equity, a lot of things can get lost in the mix. Common sense, love, gentleness, and reasonableness can go a long way in these situation, and have worked better for me that trying to cut the pie into exact equal pieces and teaching the kids to make sure each gets his/hers exactly the right size My kids have had issues and problems but none in this area at all, and I have a lot of kids all different in personalities.</p>

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<p>Really lots of energy spent on the situation, but call me silly but the OP probably isn’t going to get much aid…the D might get some merit…the OP doesn’t have a ton to spend…if the OP’s D decides to apply to one of the 300 or so Profile colleges everybody H and spouse and ex and spouse etc. etc. are going to be in the picture… the OP is part of an LLC so “stuff” will get probably added back to his income on the Profile when he fills out the business supplement whether he likes it or not or thinks it unreasonable or not…seems to me the OP ought to point the D to any number of very good schools that are FAFSA only and at the very least find public flagships and private schools that might offer a merit scholarship to offset the high tuition costs…there is always WUE if this family is in the west. </p>

<p>So like poet said many posts back - a paradigm shift in thinking.</p>

<p>Only you, OP, can decide which is more important…your D attending schools that you might find unaffordable and aren’t smart financially for you or her finding some affordable options now to add to the mix. There are smart kids in all colleges and universities.</p>

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<p>Mom2, fyi, where I live, if there is Joint Legal Custody (which there usually is with 50/50), the child may attend either school. Question would be is it close enough for kid to drive to school. If true, mom can say she is supported by inlaws.</p>

<p>Yes, the D might be able to continue at the same school if not too far. But that would mean that the DAD would have to provide car, gas, insurance, etc, and likely support for the D to live with mom and drive to her old school. Seems like a lot and may not result in gaining anything in the long run. Blue and Gold promise is for about $14k.</p>

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<p>I’m beginning to think I have no idea what FAFSA is. I thought that it was essentially required by all schools as a baseline. Is that not true? Is it only required if you are applying for low-income federal aid? I know I won’t qualify for federal aid on my income, so maybe I’m not supposed to bother with the FAFSA? Is CSS profile the same idea, i.e., for federal aid? Sorry for the ignorance. I’m just getting started trying to figure this all out.</p>

<p>Someone said to get tax returns filed quickly. I have no control over that. I don’t get a W-2 in Jan. I have to wait for p-ship returns to be filed and then I get a K-1 to report on my 1040. Historically, our p-ship returns and thus my 1040 always go on extension. So I won’t even have my 2012 taxes done until Oct 2013, and my 2013 taxes won’t be done until Oct 2014.</p>

<p>Besides a local commuter CC or living at home and commuting to a 4-year CSU within driving distance, what the heck is a “financial safety?” Dodgersmom is right. CA in state schools are no great bargain. When I ran the UCLA calculator, I think it was around $30k/year all inclusive with zero grant money.</p>

<p>Running the calculators on “meet needs” non-merit schools, even in the best case scenario, always ends up in about the same place: $30k/year. It will probably be a lot worse. I’ve looked into some of the schools who allegedly are generous with merit, e.g., Case. But even with a significant merit scholarship, we’d probably end up in about the same place: $30k/year.</p>

<p>I’m starting to come to the conclusion that no matter what I do, the best case scenario is going to be $30k/year, whether it’s IS, OOS, private, merit-based, need-based, etc. </p>

<p>I know you all think I’m a rich lawyer, but I’m not. Wiped out by divorce and keeping up with taxes, mortgage ($60k/yr for a modest 3-bdrm tract house), health insurance ($24k/yr), car loans and insurance and gas, life insurance, orthodontics, utilities, food, clothing, paying back my dad, and raising 4 teen girls… Yeah, if I lived in Texas, West Virginia, or North Dakota, and made what I make, I’d probably be rich. But I don’t. If I had an extra $30k, 60k, 90k, or 120k per after expenses it would already be in the bank. It’s not.</p>

<p>So it looks like I will spend the next 10 years squeezed financially or going into further debt to get my kids through college. By then I will be 65 with no retirement, of course, because there certainly won’t be anything left over for that. I already told my wife that I’ll probably have to work until the day I die. Sorry to sound so maudlin. Thanks for all the advice.</p>

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<p>*I’m beginning to think I have no idea what FAFSA is. I thought that it was essentially required by all schools as a baseline. *</p>

<p>It’s required by nearly all schools if you apply for FA, but it’s not really a “baseline”. It especially is not used as any sort of baseline at schools like Tufts, G’town, Penn, and Princeton (BTW…her test scores would have to rise a whole bunch to have a better chance at these schools). That said, you’d have a hefty “family contribution” at those schools and it sounds like you can pay it. </p>

<p>And, as I said earlier, these schools may refuse to process the aid request if they are suspicious of the mom’s info (claims of no income, yet somehow they’re eating). </p>

<p>The reason it’s required is so that schools can make sure that you don’t qualify for a Pell Grant or to see if you qualify for a subsidized student loan or work study.</p>