Comprehensive Ivy League v. non-Ivy League Thread Part 3

College Search & Selection
81

<p>Didn't we already cover that the WSJ feeder survey is heavily biased towards East Coast schools and thus, not very useful?</p>

<p>As for this whole "prestige" thing - it depends on what prestige you are talking about.</p>

<p>For example, UCB, internationally, is more well known and generally considered more prestigious than Ivies like Brown and Dartmouth which tend to be undergraduate focused.</p>

<p>Even within the Ivies, it's not clear cut. </p>

<p>Academics view Cornell as being more "academically prestigious" than Brown and Dartmouth due to the strength and breathe of its graduate programs and yet, the majority of people not in academia would probably consider Dartmouth and Brown to more "prestigious".</p>

82

<p>On What planet does G-town rank with the following schools: penn, columbia, cornell.</p>

<p>From Wikipedia (info already sourced)...please where is G-town? G-town, however, is a world class school just not the above schools:</p>

<p>The undergraduate school of Columbia University is ranked 9th (tied with The University of Chicago) among national universities by U.S. News and World Report (USNWR),[22] 7th among world universities and 6th among universities in the Americas by Shanghai Jiao Tong University,[23] 11th among world universities and 7th in North America by the THES - QS World University Rankings,[24][25] 36th among national universities by The Washington Monthly,[26] 10th among "global universities" by Newsweek,[27] and in the 1st tier among national universities by The Center for Measuring University Performance.[28] According to the National Research Council, graduate programs are ranked 8th nationally.</p>

<p>Columbia also participates in the National Association of Independent Colleges and Universities (NAICU)'s University and College Accountability Network (U-CAN).</p>

<p>Graduate and professional schools of Columbia University are among the best in the US with most of them ranking among the top 10 programs in the country. According to the U.S. News & World Report,[29]The Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism, home to the Pulitzer Prize, ranks #1. Teachers College (Columbia's Graduate School of Education) ranks #1. School of Social Work ranks #3. The Graduate School of Architecture, Planning and Preservation (GSAPP) ranks #3 (according to Architect magazine's November 2007 issue). Columbia Law School ranks #5. The Mailman School of Public Health ranks #6. Columbia Business School ranks #9 (#2 according to The Financial Times; #6 according to Fortune Magazine). Columbia's medical school, called the College of Physicians and Surgeons, ranks #10. According to Foreign Policy magazine, the School of International & Public Affairs (SIPA) PhD program (overall) in international relations is ranked #2, and the Master's program (policy area) is ranked #5.</p>

83

<p>Plus, one can argue that Cornell is the "most popular" Ivy since it, by far, attracts the largest no. of applicants.</p>

<p>Otoh, one can argue that Cornell is the least tough Ivy in which to gain admittance, and therefore, is the least selective.</p>

<p>Both of these are in no small part due to the larger class size at Cornell than the other Ivies - and thus, one needs to look at the overall picture.</p>

84

<p>Hausdorff,
Columbia is certainly a power in the academic world and this is clearly reflected in the many rankings that you cite. I might add that the rankings are heavily reliant on the opinions of academics and that rankings of this sort would naturally favor the entrenched, historical power. Columbia is a longtime member of the academic establishment while Georgetown, with its religious heritage, will likely never be accepted fully into that club. It should be noted, however, that the one time that rankings were established on the quality of teaching taking place at America's colleges, Georgetown was ranked in the top 25. Columbia and U Penn (which you also mention) were not, even though each ranked more highly than Georgetown that year by USNWR (Columbia was 9th, U Penn was 12th and Georgetown was 25th). </p>

<p>Are the differences in the students and the nature of their college experience really that different at these three colleges? I maintain that these three attract students of highly similar quality and that their undergraduate academic experience would also be similar. IMO, the main difference would be in the non-academic areas where I think most observers would argue that Georgetown offers a superior social life and athletic life than these Ivy peers. </p>

<p>But let's consider more closely some of the factual data for Columbia, Georgetown and U Penn. Let's try to compare these three and see if you can determine which college is which. This shouldn't be that hard, but the numbers also pretty clearly indicate that these colleges have very similar numbers and I would consider them peers. That is not to take anything away from Columbia or U Penn-they are terrific schools, but so is Georgetown. </p>

<p>Which one is which?</p>

<p>Freshman Retention Rate<br>
College A: 98%<br>
College B: 97%<br>
College C: 98% </p>

<p>4-Year Graduation Rate<br>
College A: 87%<br>
College B: 90%<br>
College C: 86% </p>

<p>6-Year Graduation Rate<br>
College A: 94%<br>
College B: 94%<br>
College C: 94% </p>

<p>% of students with GPA > 3.75<br>
College A: 58%<br>
College B: 67%<br>
College C: 69% </p>

<p>SAT Critical Reading & % of students scoring 700+<br>
College A: 650-740 , 54%
College B: 640-750 , 53%
College C: 660-760 , 67%</p>

<p>SAT Math & % of students scoring 700+<br>
College A: 680-770 , 69%
College B: 650-740 , 51%
College C: 660-760 , 60%</p>

<p>ACT Composite Scores of 30+<br>
College A: 66%<br>
College B: 58%<br>
College C: 55% </p>

<p>% of Classes with <20 students and >50 students
College A: 74% , 8%
College B: 58% , 7%
College C: 71% , 9%</p>

<p>Cost<br>
College A: $ 35,916<br>
College B: $ 36,140<br>
College C: $ 36,997</p>

85

<p>^ That's fine, student "quality" is very similar across these institutions...but students are one component that make up a university. Faculty and breadth of quality programs are another. In these areas, Columbia, in aggregate, is better than Georgetown, IMO.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It should be noted, however, that the one time that rankings were established on the quality of teaching taking place at America's colleges, Georgetown was ranked in the top 25.

[/quote]

Any idea on how the quality of teaching was measured to derive a ranking?</p>

86

<p>^^^Yes, student quality is similar at these colleges. I would add that the nature of the classroom experience (size of class and type of instruction) is not significantly different (and may even be an advantage to Georgetown). </p>

<p>In case anyone was having difficulty deciphering which school was which among Columbia and Georgetown and U Penn, the answer is shown below and I have added in the numbers for Cornell (which was also mentioned). Based on this, it would be very hard to refute claims that Georgetown is a true peer to these other colleges:</p>

<p>Freshman Retention Rate
U Penn: 98%
Georgetown: 97%
Columbia: 98%
Cornell: 96%</p>

<p>4-Year Graduation Rate
U Penn: 87%
Georgetown: 90%
Columbia: 86%
Cornell: 84%</p>

<p>6-Year Graduation Rate
U Penn: 94%
Georgetown: 94%
Columbia: 94%
Cornell: 92%</p>

<p>% of students with GPA > 3.75
U Penn: 58%
Georgetown: 67%
Columbia: 69%
Cornell: na</p>

<p>SAT Critical Reading & % of students scoring 700+
U Penn: 650-740, 54%
Georgetown: 640-750 , 53%
Columbia: 660-760 , 67%
Cornell: 620-730, 38%</p>

<p>SAT Math & % of students scoring 700+
U Penn: 680-770 , 69%
Georgetown: 650-740 , 51%
Columbia: 660-760 , 60%
Cornell: 660-760, 59%</p>

<p>ACT Composite Scores of 30+
U Penn: 66%
Georgetown: 58%
Columbia: 55%
Cornell: 56%</p>

<p>% of Classes with <20 students and >50 students
U Penn: 74%, 8%
Georgetown: 58% , 7%
Columbia: 71% , 9%
Cornell: 60%, 16%</p>

<p>Cost
U Penn: $ 35,916
Georgetown: $ 36,140
Columbia: $ 36,997
Cornell: $34,781</p>

<p>Re your point about the faculty and breadth, I would expect all of the Ivies to outperform Georgetown-it’s just the nature of the measurement process (PA) that the academics engage in. I’m not knocking the Ivies, but I do think that these subjective surveys are strongly slanted to favor the historical powers and perhaps also strongly slanted to underrate colleges with a religious affiliation. </p>

<p>Still, even if one accepts Columbia et al as having a superior faculty to Georgetown, one must consider how this translates into an undergraduate’s classroom experience. Faculty prominence tied to research efforts is nice among academics, but this frequently falls flat when actual undergraduates are asked about the quality of their classroom experience, eg, the COHE study which shows many very highly ranked colleges that are loved by academics, but not nearly so much by their own students.</p>

<p>Re the teaching quality survey, I believe that it was done based on the same (badly flawed) premise as the Peer Assessment survey. It was a sampling of perceptions and no doubt many of those opinions were based on very little direct knowledge and understanding. Was it accurate? Who knows and I would assign the same level of value that you assign to the PA ratings. You can’t choose one without the other and I personally would prefer that both be separated from any undergraduate college rankings. </p>

<p>The fact is that the educational quality at America’s colleges has spread and many colleges now boast outstanding student bodies and excellent undergraduate academics. IMO, Columbia, U Penn, Cornell and, yes, Georgetown all qualify as among that next tier of colleges just below HYPSM. And student decisions among these colleges should all be made based on individual fit and not on relative prestige in the academic world.</p>

87

<p>What do people on the west coast think about which colleges are especially outstanding?</p>

88

<p>Personally, I think I respect Stanford more than all the other Ivy League universities. It has managed to become a top school (definitely comparable to the Ivies) without having the "Ivy League" label attached to it. What do you think?</p>

89

<p>Stanford is absolutely top tier - hence, HYPSM. All five of those schools are peers, none are materially "better" than the others.</p>

<p>The counter argument to your theory is the fact that there aren't any true head to head competitors in Stanford's background -- heck, you have to travel all the way East to Princeton before you get to the nearest peer.</p>

<p>So while you've got the crowded Northeast / New England area chock full of elite schools -- all effectively cannibalizing one another for elite students -- Stanford enjoys the entire Pac Northwest / West to pick and choose from in its own backyard.</p>

90

<p>Well, you have to look into Why the Ivies call themselves the Ivies.</p>

91

<p>I can deal with being at a school that is merely better than 2,991 US schools and not 2,996 or so...</p>

92

<p>One thing I remember about Stanford is that it is dominated by graduate students.</p>

<p>percent undergraduate</p>

<p>Brown 74%
Dartmouth 71%
Cornell 69%
Princeton 68%
......big drop.......
University of Pennsylvania 50%
Yale 47%
.......big drop.......
Harvard 39%
Columbia 36%
Stanford 35%</p>

93

<p>While the expression is HYPSM, I think that Stanford's closest comp is Duke in terms of the student body and the undergraduate experience that they enjoy during their four years. All of these are of the highest caliber academically, but Stanford and Duke have more similar (and likely superior) social scenes. Furthermore, these two colleges, more than any other anywhere in the country, best embody the ability to mix top academics and top Division I athletic achievement. Stanford has won the Directors Cup for 14 straight years and Duke finished 11th. The highest finishing Ivy was Cornell (55th).</p>

94

<p>MODERATOR'S NOTE TO "Stanford better than Ivy League colleges..." thread: </p>

<p>This is a perfect thread to merge into the latest comprehensive Ivy League v. non-Ivy League thread.</p>

95

<p>tokenadult,
It really appears as if anytime someone wants to make comparisons that involve the Ivies, you quickly shuffle that discussion off to the hinterlands, otherwise known as this thread which is not compelling in the least nor does it provide any kind of consistent theme/commentary. Many people don't want to read through many pages of comments (that are themselves disjointed) and then make further comment. Whether intentional or not, it would appear that the result of your merging actions is the stifling of comparison and comment. </p>

<p>Why don't you just let the threads run on their own and let the market decide if the discussion should be pursued?</p>

96

<p>Because "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity," as philosophers say. I'm always amazed in these threads how casually the term "Ivy League" is used by participants (whether they think the Ivy League colleges are the very best or don't think so) who don't pause to consider which colleges are part of the Ivy League. I think it's helpful for new participants on CC to have reference material about that issue prominently available in a post. Any of the long-time participants here are welcome to join in with any fresh, original perspectives they have, and new participants are welcome to raise issues that haven't come up in threads like this a hundred times before.</p>

97

<p>I respectfully disagree. Cobbling together unrelated topics is not helpful to anyone, new or old, and the effect has been to confuse and choke off discussion. I read back through the 7 pages of this thread. Several promising discussions were begun and were active until they were merged into this thread, at which point they slowed considerably. </p>

<p>The latest example is the Stanford thread which I suspect would have fueled a lot of discussion. Given your move to merge the Stanford thread, it will be interesting to see now how much follow-through actually takes place. My personal feeling is that, in practice, if I am interested in a discussion comparing Stanford to the Ivies, I am much more likely to participate in that discussion rather than join some giant agglomeration of posts that has no central theme. </p>

<p>I hope you will reconsider your move to consolidate these threads and let the market decide whether a topic should be pursued.</p>

98

<p>i kind of agree with hawkette. but i probably fall somewhere in the middle between you and tokenadult -- that is, some threads can and should be merged into an overall "Ivy" thread -- (note however, that you'll invariably get a few usual suspect "Ivy sucks" type threads that get started which offer no value added at all -- those should just die out).</p>

<p>on the other hand, I kind of agree that in a specific instance where there is interesting discussion taking place (e.g. the Stanford thread had some potential) perhaps its best to let those threads "breathe" a little.</p>

<p>after all, if we HAD to consolidate every and any thread that had anything to do with the Ivies, you'd be left with one gigantic thread with people effectively "talking" over one another... </p>

<p>its a delicate balance to strike.</p>

99

<p>I agree with hawkette and the_prestige. I have been part of another bulletin board on the Robert Parker wine site.. (Mark Squires). Mark and tokenadult both have the most irritating propesity to merge distinct new threads into old threads, thus losing all context. If a person wants to have a conversation about Stanford vs. Ivy, how does that necessarily fit into a "comprehensive Ivy" comparison thread? The whole d%mn board could be one thread.</p>

100

<p>Perhaps the solution is to create a repository in the College Search & Selection area, in the same fashion as there is one for Common Data Sets, and let this be where a lot of "core" data and information on the Ivy League can be housed. That might provide more centralization for posters looking for information on the Ivy colleges as a group while not upsetting the threads/topics that individual posters created and want to see discussed and explored.</p>